SGOTM 06 - The Real Ms. Beyond

I like the idea of having a settler with escort ready, or at least close by the time we are aware of iron. Since copper is so close the odds are iron isn't.

London has a river, gold mine, and food. I like the idea of having at least one commerce city, and looks like it. I agree with York at production only. AW requires at least one military pump.

How soon do we want to get a pillaging party out? We need to start hurting the AI quickly. By the time this is ready we will need to end the exploring warriors to pay for it.
 
It looks like there's a lot of jungle around Mansa. Maybe we can find some trees to park an axe near his capital? A spear later would make that ideal.

What I don't know is whether it would be good to try to stifle Alex or let him expand. Will he just stockpile troops down there if we sit on that forested hill 2E of Athens? Regardless, our warrior probably won't cut it for stifling him. But maybe it can scout his lands a bit, starting with the other side of Sparta.
 
Seeing as we need some more discussion, I'll try to get myself re-familiarized with the game before jumping back into it.
 
While I think Lee and I are on the same page, I'd like to get some more feedback before running the next turnset. I think TheArchduke returned yesterday from Egypt, so maybe he'll be online by this weekend. Swiss, I'd also like your thoughts. And Kodii, we'll plan to skip you this round to let you get back up to speed. If, by the time I play (probably over the weekend), you feel like you're up to date, let me know and we can make it a swap rather than a skip.
 
Hmm, I am not of the general opinion of the team at all.

I think we should hit Alex (Mansa is nearer but we haven´t even scouted him and he got strength 4 archers, no?) early and hit him hard. Who cares if he has a second city, if his capital falls, it will be easy to hit and he will only be more distracted.

I don´t think we should wait on IW or improve our economy. Improve our economy? This is AW. Shall we sit on a third mediocre jungle city whilst the AI forces descend on us? Does our land justify sitting around? Because I don´t think so at all.

We should work the copper, the gold next whilst we grow to size 4, finish our barracks, get on an axe and produce 7-8 axes and hit alex now and hit him hard. Our "economy" will do fine as long as we got that nice goldmine near London, but we got to work it.

Build a second worker? I am not sure for what, let´s capture one.


The big issue I had with SGOTM 5 is that we don´t wage determinded and early war. We are waiting for another few units, for another tech to hit him. Our 3rd city is already on the map! It is Athens. Please don´t play the next round before we have decided on war or on building a 3rd city. We can´t play this game peacefully, we will loose that way.

Ah yes, hi everyone, I am back from Egypt.:)
 
Ah good, sounds like the voice of AW experience!

So, is the basis of the AW economy the gold from captured cities? Also, what are we looking for in cities we keep vs. cities we let slide? Do we postpone cities on hills because that enhances archer garrisons so much?
 
We should work the copper, the gold next whilst we grow to size 4, finish our barracks, get on an axe and produce 7-8 axes and hit alex now and hit him hard. Our "economy" will do fine as long as we got that nice goldmine near London, but we got to work it.
Before I could agree to your ideas how to you propose to not fall massively behind in tech. I've suffered from that often playing around with AI. I had times I even took out a couple of civs, and it didn't matter. Next thing I new I had maces fighting rifles.

10 axes this early will result in 0% science at best IMHO.
 
10 axes this early will result in 0% science at best IMHO.
It will hurt our economy, but only for a very short while: most will die in the assault on Athens, thus removing the upkeep.

But all that is of no import if we don't get a look at Athens soon. In my test game, Alex settled a city for Copper (which was handily en route to Athens) so he never got it hooked up.

If Alex gets up to speed (and that means melee), he's going to be a complete nightmare: AGG, 40% troop training in peacetime, a huge capital, and PHI to spam GMen. If we can cut off his head ASAP, we'll be in a great position. If not, then how do we deal with him dow the line?
 
I FINALLY got a chance to look at the game and I think that we should take Athens. According to what we know, the entire south appears empty besides Alex, which could potentially allow him expand tremendously. If we don't take the risk now, when we are unsure whether or not he has metal, he will get it later.

The warrior in the south could probably explore Athens a bit, but if Alex has enough defenders, he'll probably attack with one or two. In the best case scenario, our warrior can pillage and park on his metal.
 
Before I could agree to your ideas how to you propose to not fall massively behind in tech. I've suffered from that often playing around with AI. I had times I even took out a couple of civs, and it didn't matter. Next thing I new I had maces fighting rifles.

10 axes this early will result in 0% science at best IMHO.

First of all, it won´t result in zero tech... We want to get rid of one opponent and do it FAST. I don´t see us staying afloat in tech by sitting around either. We will go down to 40-50 science but that is what the gold mine is for.

Till 1000 BC I see no reason to panic techwise as thanks to our gold mine we have quite an edge here and rather then sit tight we should use it. (This means we have to work it though)

Guys, I am not propagating an all out conquering spree here. I just say we axe rush Alex and that hard.

I can guarantee a 100% loss if we sit around waiting for the mass attack to comes at our cities especially as this early the AI is vulnerable. Without an axe rush we can postpone any attack on an AI till we got construction (ages away) and this whilst we have to fight for our lives in the north.
 
The majority (Arch, Swiss, Kodii) is advocating going all out on axes destined for death or glory in an assault on Athens. I'm willing to go that way, but I'd like to get a more firm grasp on what we need for the assault.

Given Athens' seafood, the fact that it's on a hill, and the cultural defense it will have by the time we get there, I think we'll be lucky to suffer 2-to-1 losses (in Alex's favor) taking it. It's more likely that we'll need 12 axes to be sure. Given that we're attacking up a hill,

Failure will doom us.

Given that we're attacking up a hill, will it matter if Alex has metal or not? Archers will get hill, city, and (if barracks-promoted) garrison bonuses versus axemen's Combat 1 (if barracks-promoted) bonus.

I do agree that this is the point in the game where our fate will be decided.

And I do think we need to do something about one of the AIs. Mansa and Hannibal are both financial. Both have early UUs (archer and horse archer).

What about a third city? Should our third city simply be Athens? Or is iron important? We could delay the decision by holding off on the whip in London so that it is at least size 6 by the time IW is in. Then, we could whip a settler quickly if Iron is needed, but not yet available to us.

Let's think about it a bit more. I suspect the next turnset (mine assuming a swap with Kodii) will involve some axe and chariot buildup, some road building and some more scouting.

(Oh, and the reason for another worker was to build roads toward Athens or other enemies. But for roughly the same number of hammers, I bet 2 more axes are a better investment.)
 
I support an axe rush, but maybe Alex is the wrong target. Compromise points out that it will be tough. However, if we come at Alex with cats then it will be much easier - even against melee units.

Should we rush Mansa or Hannibal first?

BTW: I'm not worried about falling behind in tech as long as we concentrate on war techs ... music / drama / paper / priesthood aren't going to win us any battles while construction will.
 
Failure will doom us.
True. But I'd rather a bold failure than a conservative one.
Given that we're attacking up a hill, will it matter if Alex has metal or not? Archers will get hill, city, and (if barracks-promoted) garrison bonuses versus axemen's Combat 1 (if barracks-promoted) bonus.
If Alex has metals, the Axes will be Combat 1 & Shock because he's AGG. And it's the 5 base strength that will be decisive.

And I do think we need to do something about one of the AIs. Mansa and Hannibal are both financial. Both have early UUs (archer and horse archer).
Mansa will be tougher than a metal-less Alex. I've tested it and that's how it turned out. Even if we decide to switch from Alex, we certainly need to train units in preparation for an attack, so that should be the focus of the next set, along with scouting to finalize our target.
 
Good discussion. I forgot about Alex's aggressive trait. Combat I Shock Axes will be...troublesome.

I'll run the turnset tomorrow, starting about 15 hours from this post. (That's my plan anyway.) I agree that a military buildup and some scouting are the order of the day. I'll probably just build axes (London) and chariots (York) until the two cities are connected.
 
Don't forget I think London needs a barracks. We *need* that promotion to have a chance. My two axes were just about getting better then a warrior for homeland defense.

Here is praying to the RnG gods. :bowdown: :bowdown:
This plan scares the living s*** out of me. Failure and I am on the team that suffers the humiliation of the wooden spoon.
I don't want to be the person that has to execute the attack.
 
I agree with Lee about the barracks: unpromoted Axes are all but useless against CG archers on hills. I'd also get a Granary in London ASAP as we need the speedy growth it gives.
 
Nods, barracks first and then try to stay above pop 4 with whipping in London as not to totally wreck our economy.

Hannibal is the only other option besides Alex. I don´t want to encounter Skirmishers (Mansas unit) but we have zero information on him so far.

So I would say:
1.) Buildup Axes with 2-3 Chariots after a barracks.
2.) Try to scout Hannibal.
3.) Try to work the goldmine (stay above pop 4.)
 
I'm playing now. Inter-turn update: Alex has copper in his BFC. :( It's mined, but not yet roaded....

Report should be ready within 2 hours.
 
Looking around the received save, I decided to make a few changes. First, I decided that we need more intel, so I sent the warrior who was parked on a hill up near York off to explore.

And I figured that since we're not under attack yet, we could use a granary in London before a barracks.

I also deleted several obsolete signs and named some units.

Scouting continued for a few turns until our southernmost scouting warrior revealed this terrible sight:



So, Alex has copper and even has it mined already. I pondered for a bit about what to do. In the end, I decided to move our London garrison axe down there to try to raze the mine before it can become trouble. Sadly the warrior who made this discovery was slain the next turn by an archer attacking out of Athens. Another brave warrior falls.

Upon reaching size 3 in London, I worked the cows, gold and copper to get the granary done asap. This also brought our research time for IW down significantly.

Nice timing on the improvements in York, Lee! Just as we reached size 2 there, the horses came online. I believe the plan for York is to have it stagnate at size 3 and work cows, horses and a plains hill. (Right?)

As soon as the horses were roaded at York, I switched to a chariot build. I built to within 1T of completing this, then switched back to a barracks. Since we don't need it urgently, I figured it was best to have it come out with 3xp by waiting for the barracks to fininsh (but it was in the queue should an emergency arise!).

London finished its granary and started working cows, banana farm and gold to grow quickly. (Actually, I started working these tiles with 2T to go because this maximized food and didn't delay the granary past the max-hammer completion date.)

Our north warrior scout didn't find too much up north, and headed toward Mansaland, where he found a nice observation post:



I sure hope those workers are hiding because of our all-seeing warrior! Regardless, at least they're not improving his lands. I don't dare scout out the other side because I'm sure the skirmishers will come for him.

Note: there is a possibility of more land up north, but a wandering barb warrior kept me from sending Northlook up there to check it out completely.

Meanwhile, Eastlook--our eastern scouting warrior who first found Mansa on Lee's turnset--found the east coast of the island, and finally found some Carthaginian borders. He weathered one barb warrior attack. On the last turn, look who he bumped into:



So, Hannibal's starting to expand too. When I saw this, I panicked a bit and spent Eastlook's pending promotion on Woodsman I. I'd use caution here and skirt try to avoid being right next to the capital for fear of an attacking archer. I hope the warrior escort for the settler means a lack of copper.

In other news, Coppersquat--sent south to deal with the Greek copper mine--took this opportunity:



With great fortune, he endured no loss of health at all and continues to march toward Athens. He's not quite there yet, since I stopped when we discovered IW.

One last thing, just as our chariot completed in York, a Greek scout appeared.



Yay! An experienced chariot!

And here is the final screenshot, showing known locations of iron:



This is another good stopping point: Let's discuss how to proceed.


The Save
 
Back
Top Bottom