SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

CITIES
Carthage: wall chop finishes, then Great Wall per JT's method (25 overflow, +2 ftc chops, +1 outside ftc chop

You should find on changing the turn that the forests listed as 2 turns to chop will become 1 turn.

Athens, York & Ironsite: finish cat, then galley
London: 1-2 chariots (medic), cats, settler for another gold chop city (want to let London grow atleast 1 pop before starting)
Ivoryville: WE
Sparta: switch to wall for chop, hire scientist afterward not sure??
Timb: still 27 turns on its sword (1 hpt)
Gold City: wall chop - 5 forest
Horse City: wall chop - 9 forests

How much do we want to use the queue to hold units near completion? Certainly we need the Chariots for Barb Axes.

The best city to queue up units would be London as the Military Instructor is there and we get two promotions.

Sparta: 2 in area - finish choppng the 3 forest - then all 3 to Ivoryville as part of chop crew for Horse City (9 forest in ftc)

The forests west and NW have some pre-chopping done. Two turns NW and 3 west, iirc.

Currently, we have a Barb Sword near Tim - need to watch what he does - workers will run.

There are two Axes in Tim that should easily handle this guy, if they are healed. Sorry, can't remember without looking.

I did not see the Barb City up north until two turns before the end of my set. And I was looking up there as I was moving the settler stack towards Gold City.

Hope that helps.

 

[rrau]

I think we need alphabet so we don't waste a GS on it.

 

[ShannonCT]

Machinery 1501 ---- GS
Optics 1287 ---- GS
Astronomy 4290 ---- GS

Machinery must be self-researched unless the Great Wall happens to give us an unlikely GE.

Athens, York & Ironsite: finish cat, then galley

York could switch to galley immediately since it has no barracks and hasn't put any hammers into the cat.

London: 1-2 chariots (medic), cats, settler for another gold chop city (want to let London grow atleast 1 pop before starting)

There are probably better places to build a settler since London has our only settled GG. London should be groomed for more unit production.

Sparta: switch to wall for chop, hire scientist afterward not sure??

Coastal fish are 2 commerce and much better for growth.

Gold City: wall chop - 5 forest

...and then a galley perhaps.

Currently, we have a Barb Sword near Tim - need to watch what he does - workers will run.

Barb sword near Tim can be dispatched by our axe with high probability.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

For Warlords, we definitely don't want Alphabet... it's way down the list for GS tech preferences. We can safely get Optics (1 GS) and Astronomy (2 GS's) with our planned tech path.

 

[ShannonCT]

How much do we want to use the queue to hold units near completion? Certainly we need the Chariots for Barb Axes.

We wont need many if we build the Great Wall. Chariots should seek out easy units to kill to gain the Medic I promotion, and then plan on shipping out.

I think we need alphabet so we don't waste a GS on it.

That's only in BTS.

 

[leif erikson]

We wont need many if we build the Great Wall. Chariots should seek out easy units to kill to gain the Medic I promotion, and then plan on shipping out.

Oh Yeah, forgot about Great Wall...
May still need them to escort settlers through hostile lands where Barb Axes lurk behind every tree...

The question still stands concerning the use of the queue however. What is the best way to utilize this technique?

 

[ShannonCT]

The question still stands concerning the use of the queue however. What is the best way to utilize this technique?

I don't think we should use this technique at the expense of poor army composition. A city like London can produce some very useful accuracy cats, but if it queues up a cat, a sword, a chariot, and an elephant, then we get only one accuracy cat by the time we're ready to launch.

As Fred has pointed out, unit maintenance doesn't slow down our research rate as long as we chop quickly enough.

If we manage to get the Great Wall, we can pull back all of our fogbusters and save on unit supply.

 

[DJMGator13]

I originally made my list w/o Alpha on it based on both Fred's and SCT's test games, but when I was reviewing the updated Great People Tech Pref. List I saw that it had Alpha listed prior to Machinery.

First question: Is 1 GS enough for Astro? (If no, skip question #2)

Second question: If we self research Alpha can't we use 1 GS on Machinery, 1 on Optics and 1 on Astro? This would be faster then researching Machinery (643 vrs 1501). We haven't met the requirements for Education & Paper (which require Civil Service) and we'll have self researched Compass & Metal Casting. Because of the very precise tech path we have taken in this game this would allow the next GS to go all the way down the list to Machinery if we use the 3 GS after all the self researching is done. (Optics requires Mach. so it would go by it, Astro requires Optics so it would pass it also.)

 

[DJMGator13]

(.....Alpha on GS list)

That's only in BTS.

Looks like it was on the list prior to BTS but has been moved up in preference from after Astronomy (Van/Warlords) to before Optics (BTS). Since we are in an AW game we never bothered to research it where in a normal game we would have already researched it for the tech trading ability.

But I have never done this (GS strat) before, so I'm relying on my teammates for the correct call. Managing GPP is one of my weak points, so this has been a very fun game already for me and I haven't even played a turn.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I don't think we should use this technique at the expense of poor army composition. A city like London can produce some very useful accuracy cats, but if it queues up a cat, a sword, a chariot, and an elephant, then we get only one accuracy cat by the time we're ready to launch. Hammers already invested in units begin to decay, so we can't have long queues -- three probably max -- so this is a marginal technique. Agree that only swords and cats should be built in London (certainly not a settler).

As Fred has pointed out, unit maintenance doesn't slow down our research rate as long as we chop quickly enough. True, but might as well save a dollar where we can with little inconvenience, as gold for upgrades and long-term economic health is important.
QUOTE]



Taking an advocates position on first wave from west coast:

If the furthest AI land mass is about as close to our west coast as it is to our east coast (admittedly less than 50% likely, but perhaps not much, since it's the nearer-coast distance that is critical), then we would certainly be better off building most of our galleons on the west coast where they can be built faster.

The strategy of attacking the furthest AI first would seem most easily implemented when land travel is possible through AI territories via Open Borders. In this game, on the other hand, we are likely to have to use galleons a great deal. While our galleons are sailing to the furthest AI, we will have no way of sending more units into battle except to continue building more galleons, and bulding galleons takes time, plus every galleon we have to build is a unit that we don't build. Obviously we'd like to be able to re-load our galleons as much as possible. It's an interesting trade off, and the optimal solution may well be difficult to fathom even after we've seen the map. The amount of ease/west land travel possible over the first continent we conquer, for instance, may be a critical factor. My seat of the pants guess is that we are most likely to be better off attacking the middle AI first, returning those first galleons more quickly for reloading, but it's extremely unpredictable. I think the middle AI would best be attacked from the west coast. (I also suspect that the number of initial galleons upgraded and constructed quickly will be critical to the speed of victory.)

We should certainly send at least one ship east to explore and speed circumnavigation. Only if we think we'll have enough units available as soon as Astronomy is researched to fully load all our available galleons heading west and have some left over for loading an eastern galleon (that can be built in time), would a galleon(s) be preferable to a trireme>caravel with just a missionary aboard.

"First question: Is 1 GS enough for Astro?" No, it takes two.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Nice plan Gator .

Research is Calendar->Compass->Metal Casting->Machinery

This is the plan for self research unless we get a GE in Carthage that can bulb machinery. Optics (1 GS) and Astronomy (2 GS) are bulbed.

CITIES
Carthage: wall chop finishes, then Great Wall per JT's method (25 overflow, +2 ftc chops, +1 outside ftc chop
Athens, York & Ironsite: finish cat, then galley
York: change to Galley
London: 1-2 chariots (medic), cats, settler for another gold chop city (want to let London grow atleast 1 pop before starting)
Ivoryville: WE
Sparta: switch to wall for chop, hire scientist afterward not sure?? Work fish (will send wb by Cart here after busting fog by fur)
Timb: still 27 turns on its sword (1 hpt)
Gold City: wall chop - 5 forest / then galley
Horse City: wall chop - 9 forests / ??? probably after my set
need to find a spot for a settler for another chop (want to let London grow)

We may need to build a chariot in York or London ASAP (when the horse in Sparta is hooked) in order to handle the barb axe to the north. Settler has lower priority now that there is a barb city up north with lots of forests.

WORKERS: (17 total)
Carthage: currently has 10 in area the 2 ftc forests are prechopped to 2 turns, there are 3 forest just outside the ftc - chop all 5 forests into the Great Wall after hooking up spices. Send other 5 as SCT described: 3 to Gold City (to join the 2 from Tim), 1 goes to Sparta (so we can chop all 3 forest then onto Ivoryville) and 1 goes to Ivoryville.

I think we need to move some workers to Timbuktu faster in order to improve the dyes (6gpt) and the banana. I suggest we chop only one forest outside Carthages fat cross (and the two inside) to save worker turns. We will still get the Great Wall reasonably soon. I think saving turns on the Astro date is more important than getting the GW fast.

Sparta: switch to wall for chop, hire scientist afterward not sure?? Work fish

Each scientist we hire will contribute with almost half a turn on Astro if it's done soon. We probably shouldn't sacrifice working food rich tiles, so in Sparta I would definitely work the cow and the fish - more so because the fish tile also yields two gold i.e. we only get one extra beaker by hiring a scientist instead but loose a lot of food. Whether we should hire a scientist rather than work the horse tile is less clear and the same can be said for York where we could hire a scientist instead of working the plains hill. In both cases we sacrifice production to speed the Astro date and it's not that easy to evaluate the trade off.

MILITARY
Hopefully boring if I get the Great Wall done. Gets some swords moving towards the Barb cities. Don't capture yet because workers will be busy elsewhere.

I think we should capture Bantu soon and try to free up some workers to improve the dye. Bantu will contribute 8 bpt working a single dye plantation and in the slightly longer perspective it will be a major commerce city with 3 dye tiles (18 gpt) and 2 spice tiles (8 gpt).

Currently, we have a Barb Sword near Tim - need to watch what he does - workers will run. Also a Barb Axe just south of the new Barb city, watch him until we can get a chariot up there. Our 2 warriors on the hill will run also. Our healed axe should be able to go after the Barb Sword.

I think the shock axe has the best odds even though it's not fully healed. Maybe move the other axe a couple of tiles north in case the barb axe decides to go east. The settler has an extra movement point and migth as well move one step closer to the Gold City site. Hopefully the barb axe will go west and the settler will be able to continue NE. Consider retreating the warriors if they are threathened by the axe - no need to sacrifice them.

There is one more important issue regarding the GS strategy. We want the first GS in Carthage so try to MM Carthage and Timbuktu so that Tim is exactly one turn slower in getting the GS. I'm not sure what will happen if they both go above 300 GP points in the same turn. Anyone know? Don't be afraid to starve Carthage for a turn or two by hiring an extra scientist as long as it doesn't mean loosing pop. Remember to bring Tim up to speed again with GP points when the GS is born in Carthage. And don't fire the scientists in Carthage unless they can work better tiles (like the spice tile that gives 4 gpt).

 

[Frederiksberg]

If we will dedicate our invasions off the west coast, then the furthest AI will be one that is closest to our east coast - so we should have our first four galleons and promoted units head east; and have our second wave coming from the west. Once first four galleons have reached the land and have unloaded, some of them that aren't required to move/support units along the coast can continue eastward scouting the land and will eventually meet up with our west coast forces and can join the galley chain there.

As well as upgrading 4 galleons with cash on the east coast, we can send one upgraded galleon north of PurpleAI as soon as we hit Astronomy to speed circumanvaigation and to try to locate civ#2 without declaring war on on PurpleAI. We can load it we 3 swords (if we have spare) to either reinforce our 1st wave or maybe make an attack of opportunity once it finds civ#2.

If the objective is to attack the furthest AI first this approach seems best to me. Note, that we don't have to build all galleons going east on the east coast. A galley built in York now will have time to move to the east coast and be upgraded to galleon.

The strategy of attacking the furthest AI first would seem most easily implemented when land travel is possible through AI territories via Open Borders. In this game, on the other hand, we are likely to have to use galleons a great deal. While our galleons are sailing to the furthest AI, we will have no way of sending more units into battle except to continue building more galleons, and bulding galleons takes time, plus every galleon we have to build is a unit that we don't build. Obviously we'd like to be able to re-load our galleons as much as possible. It's an interesting trade off, and the optimal solution may well be difficult to fathom even after we've seen the map. The amount of ease/west land travel possible over the first continent we conquer, for instance, may be a critical factor. My seat of the pants guess is that we are most likely to be better off attacking the middle AI first, returning those first galleons more quickly for reloading, but it's extremely unpredictable. I think the middle AI would best be attacked from the west coast. (I also suspect that the number of initial galleons upgraded and constructed quickly will be critical to the speed of victory.)

This means a change of objective from attacking the AI furthest away to attacking the middle AI and as you say it's not easy to evaluate. I think we shouldn't be too conservative about building galleons because they can move our troops up to 5 times faster and while healing! So we will most likely want galleons not only to transport units from our own continent to the AI islands but also to move units between battlefields.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Excellent advice for Gator, so I'm concentrating on other matters.

If the objective is to attack the furthest AI first this approach seems best to me. Note, that we don't have to build all galleons going east on the east coast. A galley built in York now will have time to move to the east coast and be upgraded to galleon. Attacking from the west and the middle civ means getting both first and second waves of units to work (and healing) quicker.

It's also likely to require perhaps 10% fewer galleon movement turns.
Here's a greatly oversimplified possible scenario: Consider the middle civ to be 20 tiles from our coast and the far civ to be 30. Far attack first might require galleon movement of 30 out, 30 back, 20 out (to Mid civ to drop off units), 10 to Far (to pick up units), and 10 back to middle, for a total movement over 100 tiles. Mid attack first requires 20 out, 20 back, 30 out (to Far civ to drop off units), 10 back to mid civ (to pick up units), and 10 back to Far civ, for a total of 90 turns. It certainly won't be anything like that simple, but it demonstates the concept.

This means a change of objective from attacking the AI furthest away to attacking the middle AI and as you say it's not easy to evaluate. I think we shouldn't be too conservative about building galleons because they can move our troops up to 5 times faster and while healing! So we will most likely want galleons not only to transport units from our own continent to the AI islands but also to move units between battlefields.

Absolutely, the fewer times galleons have to return all the way home the better. If the Purple Haze is on a wide continent, it might even work best to attack them quickly and then to transport units from their west coast.

 

[Frederiksberg]

It's also likely to require perhaps 10% fewer galleon movement turns.
Here's a greatly oversimplified possible scenario: Consider the middle civ to be 20 tiles from our coast and the far civ to be 30. Far attack first might require galleon movement of 30 out, 30 back, 20 out (to Mid civ to drop off units), 10 to Far (to pick up units), and 10 back to middle, for a total movement over 100 tiles. Mid attack first requires 20 out, 20 back, 30 out (to Far civ to drop off units), 10 back to mid civ (to pick up units), and 10 back to Far civ, for a total of 90 turns. It certainly won't be anything like that simple, but it demonstates the concept.

I understand your idea and I think we should work with this balanced against other concepts. One thing that comes to mind is that there might be a difference between the initial phase of the war when we have many units that need transportation from home base to enemy turf and the later phase when we have a slower stream of reinforcements coming depending on our ability to build units. We also need to consider the fact that the conquest date will be determined by the last city we can get to and capture. So waiting until last minute with attacking the most distant city is probably not good. If we had an infinite army and limited transport capacity the optimal solution would most likely be to distribute the available transport capacity in such a way that our units arrive simultaneously at all targets. Say that we had 3 equally strong enemy cities left at distances of 10, 20 and 30 tiles and 6 galleons available. We should then use 3 galleons to service the city at distance 30, 2 galleons for the city at distance 20 and 1 galleon for the city at distance 10. By doing this we would build our armies at the exact same pace at all city sites and we would also expect to capture all cities almost simultaneously. This example is clearly simplified but it does illustrate the background for emphasizing the city/cities that are not easy to reach.

 

[ShannonCT]

Maybe we can just have our cake and eat it too (sorry if that idiom does not translate beyond US shores). We currently have 5 axemen and 10 swords. If we get the Great Wall, that's 15 units that can be sent to war. If an army is to consist of 12 units, we need 24 units for 2 armies. We need 2 medics (chariots or scouts), maybe 4 accuracy cats (city raider cats shouldn't be needed against archers), and 3 elephants to make 24 units (extra elephants can take the place of axemen on the ships). We would also need 8 galleons. Getting 9 more land units is no problem. As for the boats, we have 1 galley already. York can build 3 more and half of a fourth (which will change to a galleon build) in 25 turns. One of those could be sent to Gold City and wait for an upgrade. Gold City can produce 1 galley itself with the help of the chop overflow. Sparta and Carthage should be good for 1 galley each. That gives us 7 galleys, each of which costs 135 gold to upgrade. That's 945 gold in total. Chopping the 10 forests of the northern barb city will give us at least 1200 gold. Or if it looks like we're not going to get those forests chopped fast enough to upgrade all the galleys immediately, several galleys can be held in the queue so that ~70 hammers will be there when the galley build changes to a galleon build. The difference in hammer cost between a galley and galleon is 45. That means you can whip the galleon right away for 2 pop or wait until 76+ hammers are invested and whip for 1 pop.

So, if we assume that we can have 8 galleons a couple turns after Astronomy is bulbed, what would be a good plan of attack? 4 galleons would be taking off from York. We know that India has land SW of York, so going NW would likely allow us to miss India and search for another AI. 2 galleons would be taking off from Gold City (or maybe from that peice of coast we own in Timbuktu's borders), and 2 from Carthage. Those 4 galleons should be looking for an Ai in the southern hemisphere if our western force is looking north. The 2 galleons from Gold City (or Tim) can swing by the island where the hut is and pop the hut without wasting any time. Then those two galleons can steer SE to meet up with the 2 galleons from Carthage. After the 8 galleons have dropped of their cargo, they all head back to our west coast and start forming a chain (or chains).

Is all of this feasible?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Maybe we can just have our cake and eat it too (sorry if that idiom does not translate beyond US shores). We currently have 5 axemen and 10 swords. If we get the Great Wall, that's 15 units that can be sent to war. If an army is to consist of 12 units, we need 24 units for 2 armies. We need 2 medics (chariots or scouts), maybe 4 accuracy cats (city raider cats shouldn't be needed against archers), and 3 elephants to make 24 units (extra elephants can take the place of axemen on the ships). We would also need 8 galleons. Getting 9 more land units is no problem. As for the boats, we have 1 galley already. York can build 3 more and half of a fourth (which will change to a galleon build I'm not sure that it will.) in 25 turns. One of those could be sent to Gold City and wait for an upgrade. Gold City can produce 1 galley itself with the help of the chop overflow. Sparta and Carthage should be good for 1 galley each. That gives us 7 galleys, each of which costs 135 gold to upgrade. That's 945 gold in total. Chopping the 10 forests of the northern barb city will give us at least 1200 gold. Or if it looks like we're not going to get those forests chopped fast enough to upgrade all the galleys immediately, several galleys can be held in the queue so that ~70 hammers will be there when the galley build changes to a galleon build. The difference in hammer cost between a galley and galleon is 45. That means you can whip the galleon right away for 2 pop or wait until 76+ hammers are invested and whip for 1 pop.

So, if we assume that we can have 8 galleons a couple turns after Astronomy is bulbed, what would be a good plan of attack? 4 galleons would be taking off from York. We know that India has land SW of York, so going NW would likely allow us to miss India and search for another AI. 2 galleons would be taking off from Gold City (or maybe from that peice of coast we own in Timbuktu's borders), and 2 from Carthage. Those 4 galleons should be looking for an Ai in the southern hemisphere if our western force is looking north. The 2 galleons from Gold City (or Tim) can swing by the island where the hut is and pop the hut without wasting any time. Then those two galleons can steer SE to meet up with the 2 galleons from Carthage. After the 8 galleons have dropped of their cargo, they all head back to our west coast and start forming a chain (or chains).

Is all of this feasible?

Interesting . . . This would certainly give us a great deal of flexibility to respond to what we find out in the open ocean. Have you taken into consideration the need for settler(s)? Do I understand that the original eastern-sailing galleons would never return home if the nearest AI is, say, 20 or more tiles distant?

 

[leif erikson]

Good discussion.

I am thinking that CP's idea has a great deal of merit.

The problem I have with sending 4 east and 4 west is that the number 4 may not be enough to set up a reinforcing ship chain. Not having the shipping makes attacking the farthest civ first a bit dicey.

By attacking a middle civ, we should be able to ship chain reinforcements to the initial attack. As that succeeds, it can continue west while we initiate phase 2 closer to home.

Not knowing the map, my preference would be, given 8 Galleons, to send a stronger force from the west coast, 6 Galleons, and send the other two from the east. The ones moving east can scout out the land and attack if a target presents itself. If a target appears, those Galleons could drop off and pick up on the other side where the ship chain from the west drops reinforcing units.

It all sounds easy until we see the land form and find out differently.

I guess I have an aversion to sending two equal sized forces in different directions not knowing if they are strong enough or if they can reinforce each other if needed. There isn't enough flexibility built in.

 

[ShannonCT]

York can build 3 more and half of a fourth (which will change to a galleon build I'm not sure that it will.) in 25 turns.

Any unit with a single upgrade path can no longer be built when the next unit in the path becomes available. The only upgrade path for galley is galley>galleon>transport. So galley builds will change to galleon builds.

Interesting . . . This would certainly give us a great deal of flexibility to respond to what we find out in the open ocean. Have you taken into consideration the need for settler(s)?

1 or 2 more settlers shouldn't be hard to come by. We still have Sparta, Gold City, Horse City, and Northern Barb City to chop before we have a free workforce for chopping another city.

Do I understand that the original eastern-sailing galleons would never return home if the nearest AI is, say, 20 or more tiles distant?

I guess that depends on which side will make for a shorter galleon chain. But sending the 4 eastern sailing galleons to our west coast would accomplish the goal of uncovering most of the board.

 

[ShannonCT]

Not knowing the map, my preference would be, given 8 Galleons, to send a stronger force from the west coast, 6 Galleons, and send the other two from the east. The ones moving east can scout out the land and attack if a target presents itself. If a target appears, those Galleons could drop off and pick up on the other side where the ship chain from the west drops reinforcing units.

I guess I have an aversion to sending two equal sized forces in different directions not knowing if they are strong enough or if they can reinforce each other if needed. There isn't enough flexibility built in.

I don't know if 6 units has the critical mass do much damage. Sure, it could capture a city, but it might not get much farther than that. A 6 unit force would be composed of what? 1 Medic, 2 cats, 2 swords, and 1 elephant? That doesn't leave much if a sword or elephant dies in combat. A 12 unit army of, say, 1 medic, 2 cats, 2 elephants, and 7 swords/axes is protected against any unit the AI choose to counterattack with and can even split into two groups if the AI is weak. Capturing several large cities means being able to whip those cities for several more war elephants or cats (forget about a barracks) to sustain the drive. Capturing half of an AI's cities before it gets longbows and turning those cities against it quickly virtually guarantees us a quick victory.

Considering that this is Prince difficulty and that we have gotten Astronomy so quickly, I am inclined to be very ambitious about the ease with which we can conquer an AI. I'm sure our two masters of fast conquests have a good feel for what we will be facing.

 

[ShannonCT]

Has anyone looked at CRC's power graph? In between turn 202 and 207, they had a ~70 point increase. I would be willing to bet that this is when they got Astronomy. Machinery and Astronomy are worth 12 power points total, and if they then upgraded a bunch of units and whipped every city, you'd expect this kind of increase in power.

Onward to the gold XTeam!