SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[ShannonCT]

Well done leif .

The unplanned chop in Carthage is probably a minor thing - we could decide to chop the 3 forests in Sparta into gold and use the extra forests in Carthage to chop the work boat.

I think we do need to recover Carthage's lost gold in Sparta. I don't know if it's worth sending a third worker down there to help though when there are so many other tasks for our workers. Maybe after the two workers at Sparta finish the horse pasture they can chop one forest together to finish the workboat with the overflow going into walls, and then they chop the other two forests into the walls for gold. That should give us ~200 gold there. Carthage's forests will be good for a granary. It looks like our exploratory workboat isn't going to find anything, so it can go to Sparta's fish.

For our other workers: of the 8 at Carthage right now, how many do we leave there? Carthage will be occupied with the GS for 12 turns, so the copper and horses don't need to be done until then. Spices are the most important, for Athens's sake. Maybe we leave 3 workers there and of the other 5, 3 go directly to Gold City (to join the two workers in Tim) and the other 2 go to help finish the improvements in Ivoryville, along with the 2 that are already there, the 1 near Ironsite, and the 2 at Sparta. These 7 will be our main choppers for Horse City (we have 8 forests if we settle 1 east of the bananas). I think we're looking at the new gold from Carthage and Sparta running out in 11-12 turns, so we need 5 workers in place for chopping at Gold City in about 6 turns.

I also noticed the barbs built a city north of York with 10 forests, a fish, and a cow in the fat cross. Thank you barbs! I'd be more interested in capturing this city than Bantu. I don't know if our workforce has time to improve Bantu for it to make a difference on the Machinery date. We still have to improve Carthage, Sparta, Ivoryville, Gold City, and Horse City, and chop the forests around Gold City and Horse City. We are shooting for Machinery and Astronomy in ~25 turns. But capturing the northern city after Astro should be good for some unit upgrades.

I can see a few changes I'd make to our fogbusting arrangement. The warrior in Ivoryville can move north to the jungle hill directly north of Ivoryville. He isn't needed for MP duty right now. The axeman next to Bantu can move 1W to fogbust the road and Bantu at the same time. The sword at bantu can move to the plains hill just north of Carthage's fat cross so that if something approaches Carthage from the NE, the sword will be able to defend. The sword west of Sparta will not be needed as a fogbuster after Sparta's border expansion. If the axeman coming from the north approaches one of our warrior fogbusters, the warrior needs to run, or he's as good as dead. Perhaps we should upgrade the sword escorting the settler to CombatI/Shock and try to get the axeman to attack him in a forest.

Edit: The axe south of Athens is only fogbusting two tiles. We might as well move him back into Athens's borders.

 

[ShannonCT]

I noticed that the Great Wall is still "on the table". If it's still available when we are getting close to Astronomy, I think this would be a very good use of 3 forests (maybe the ones outside of the fat cross of Tim or Carthage). Without barbs to worry about, our warriors can pull MP duty and all of our axes and swords will be available to make war on the AI.

 

[ShannonCT]

What builds do we want this upcoming turnset?

Athens and York are building cats. Since we know there is an AI near our west coast, those cities, along with Ironsite, should probably follow their cat builds with galleys. Having four galleys to upgrade to galleons would be a nice goal. London has our settled Great General. London needs to produce units where the second upgrade makes a big difference. I think that means 1-2 chariots for medics and lots of cats for the accuracy promotion (both of these make a significant difference in conquest speed). Ivoryville will be our best site for war elephants. After Carthage finishes a granary, it could go for barracks next or for a trireme. A trireme could be upgraded to a caravel and carry our useless Taoist missionary to pop the hut on the northeast island, and then explore and help with circumnavigation. (Remember, converting Gold City to Taoism while our national religion is Confucianism does no good.) Sparta needs granary and barracks after walls. Gold City probably can't get a granary built fast enough for it to be of any use. It wont go past Pop3 working the rice and 2 gold mines. I think we had talked about building boats there.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Well done, leif. Quit kicking yourself. You did a great deal well. I'm pleased and a bit surprised that more minor glitches haven't occurred.

What builds do we want this upcoming turnset?

Athens and York are building cats. Since we know there is an AI near our west coast, those cities, along with Ironsite, should probably follow their cat builds with galleys. Having four galleys to upgrade to galleons would be a nice goal. Yes, assuming we'll have the money available for the upgrades. London has our settled Great General. London needs to produce units where the second upgrade makes a big difference. I think that means 1-2 chariots for medics and lots of cats for the accuracy promotion (both of these make a significant difference in conquest speed). My experience suggests one CR2 cat promotion for every accuracy, but we shouldn't need to upgrade until ready to attack. CR2 swords are equally valuable. I'd go with swords rather than chariots and try to get the chariot medic through barbs.Ivoryville will be our best site for war elephants. After Carthage finishes a granary, it could go for barracks next or for a trireme. A trireme could be upgraded to a caravel and carry our useless Taoist missionary to pop the hut on the northeast island, and then explore and help with circumnavigation. (Remember, converting Gold City to Taoism while our national religion is Confucianism does no good.) Agree that best use of this misionary is to pop huts. Like the idea of a trireme to caravel, but only if gold for upgrade will be available. We need to explore the eastern ocean anyway, and the extra circumnavigation movement pays off multiple times every turn as the game progresses.

I noticed that leif pillaged the horse pasture. I'm guessing that leif thought he had to pillage the horses to prevent chariots being built (otherwise, why not keep the pasture, knowing we would soon own the city). This brings up something I'm confused about and suspect my teammates can clarify: I've read (perhaps as far back as CivII) that a unit on a resource prevents the civ from using it, but I've had civs repeatedly build units requiring said resource when I could not find any way they had access (and one of my units was standing on the resource). What's the deal?

As we approach Astronomy, we can build cats, swords, and WE's in each city to within one turn of completion, to reduce costs a bit as our unit count mounts.

 

[ShannonCT]

Yes, assuming we'll have the money available for the upgrades.

If it's not available right after Astronomy, it will be available when we chop another big forest. Extra galleons are always a good thing.

Actually, looking at the save again, I notice York hasn't actually put any hammers into the cat, and that it has no barracks. Sounds like the best city for a dedicated ship factory.

My experience suggests one CR2 cat promotion for every accuracy, but we shouldn't need to upgrade until ready to attack. CR2 swords are equally valuable. I'd go with swords rather than chariots and try to get the chariot medic through barbs.

Good idea.

Like the idea of a trireme to caravel, but only if gold for upgrade will be available. We need to explore the eastern ocean anyway, and the extra circumnavigation movement pays off multiple times every turn as the game progresses.

Trireme to caravel only costs 45 gold. We should be able to find this somewhere.

I noticed that leif pillaged the horse pasture. I'm guessing that leif thought he had to pillage the horses to prevent chariots being built (otherwise, why not keep the pasture, knowing we would soon own the city). This brings up something I'm confused about and suspect my teammates can clarify: I've read (perhaps as far back as CivII) that a unit on a resource prevents the civ from using it, but I've had civs repeatedly build units requiring said resource when I could not find any way they had access (and one of my units was standing on the resource). What's the deal?

In my experience, in Civ4, sitting a unit on top of a connected resource does not deny that resource to the AI. You have to pillage it or disconnect it to deny it.

As we approach Astronomy, we can build cats, swords, and WE's in each city to within one turn of completion, to reduce costs a bit as our unit count mounts.

Spoken like a true warmonger.

 

[rrau]

I noticed that leif pillaged the horse pasture. I'm guessing that leif thought he had to pillage the horses to prevent chariots being built (otherwise, why not keep the pasture, knowing we would soon own the city). This brings up something I'm confused about and suspect my teammates can clarify: I've read (perhaps as far back as CivII) that a unit on a resource prevents the civ from using it, but I've had civs repeatedly build units requiring said resource when I could not find any way they had access (and one of my units was standing on the resource). What's the deal?

A unit on it keeps the city from working the tile, but unless you pillage, they have access to the resource.

 

[leif erikson]

Well done, leif. Quit kicking yourself. You did a great deal well. I'm pleased and a bit surprised that more minor glitches haven't occurred.

Thanks CP.

I noticed that leif pillaged the horse pasture. I'm guessing that leif thought he had to pillage the horses to prevent chariots being built (otherwise, why not keep the pasture, knowing we would soon own the city). This brings up something I'm confused about and suspect my teammates can clarify: I've read (perhaps as far back as CivII) that a unit on a resource prevents the civ from using it, but I've had civs repeatedly build units requiring said resource when I could not find any way they had access (and one of my units was standing on the resource). What's the deal?

Yes, that is why I pillaged it. I hadn't seen any Barb Axes, only Swords. Figures Axes would show up right after it was done.

As we approach Astronomy, we can build cats, swords, and WE's in each city to within one turn of completion, to reduce costs a bit as our unit count mounts.

Good idea!!

 

[Cactus Pete]

A unit on it keeps the city from working the tile, but unless you pillage, they have access to the resource.

Thanks, rrau. That's certainly consistent with what I've observed recently. Does anyone know if this is something that's changed, or did I just have it wrong from the start?

 

[Cactus Pete]

I noticed that the Great Wall is still "on the table". If it's still available when we are getting close to Astronomy, I think this would be a very good use of 3 forests (maybe the ones outside of the fat cross of Tim or Carthage). Without barbs to worry about, our warriors can pull MP duty and all of our axes and swords will be available to make war on the AI.

Sounds like a good use of the chops -- 3 forests converted to the use of just three units would be a net plus, and we could still send units out after the barbs for training.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"I also noticed the barbs built a city north of York with 10 forests, a fish, and a cow in the fat cross. Thank you barbs! I'd be more interested in capturing this city than Bantu. Absolutely, it's closer to the capital and should be easier to capture.I don't know if our workforce has time to improve Bantu for it to make a difference on the Machinery date. We still have to improve Carthage, Sparta, Ivoryville, Gold City, and Horse City, and chop the forests around Gold City and Horse City. We are shooting for Machinery and Astronomy in ~25 turns. But capturing the northern city after Astro should be good for some unit upgrades."

What about capturing this city instead of founding the horse city? With a wb from York, it would be a decent city. The horse city could be used later for upgrades.

 

[ShannonCT]

What about capturing this city instead of founding the horse city? With a wb from York, it would be a decent city. The horse city could be used later for upgrades.

We could do both. We have 17 workers. It would be good to try to get both cities chopped before we revolt back to Slavery, because we lose some gold if we can't get quick border expansion with artists. That gives us a window of ~25 turns to optimize gold chopping.

I notice that the city north of York wasn't there three turns ago. I don't know if Leif remembers seeing it 1 or 2 turns ago, but it should be between 15 and 17 turns away from growing to Pop2 and actually being capturable. If we capture it as soon as it's at Pop2 and grow it's borders quickly, the timing should be right to get it chopped around the time Astronomy comes in, if we're efficient with our worker turns.

If we can chop 17 forests near the time of Astronomy, that's 2000+ gold for upgrades and for pushing Civil Service.

But I think it makes sense to go ahead with the plan to found Horse City as soon as the southern workforce is ready to chop. The settler is almost done in London and most of our workers are in the south. Gator can send a couple swords towards the northern barb city so that we will be ready to capture it by turn 173.

 

[DJMGator13]

Quick review of the save file (not a plan for my turnset):

1) Is London & York safe from that northern barb city, which is not coastal. So to work the fish York will have to build a wb for it. (EDIT: CP & SCT working on it already)
2) I think we'll only net around 720 gold from the 6 chops and 0 overflow to the next build since we currently can't whip.
3) What is the next targeted gold chop city? Sparta only has 3 forest but more workers near it.
4) Great Wall is very good idea - would it be worth using the 3 forests by Sparta and chopping it now? We don't want it in Tim, Cart or Athens until we are done with the GS or it might pop a GE.

 

[ShannonCT]

3) What is the next targeted gold chop city? Sparta only has 3 forest but more workers near it.
4) Great Wall is very good idea - would it be worth using the 3 forests by Sparta and chopping it now? We don't want it in Tim, Cart or Athens until we are done with the GS or it might pop a GE.

Great Wall will be more useful when we actually have galleons to load troops on. I wouldn't build it now though. Not chopping some gold in Sparta will most likely mean turning off research for a couple turns.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Well played leif

And great discussion everyone.

My comments have really been covered already:

*Save missionary for caravel exploration.

*Take northern barb city for forest chopping as soon as it reaches pop two.

*Consider building Great Wall in Carthage right away - the cost of 3 swords or just over 4 chops. We could put the overflow from the wall chop into the Great Wall and chop the two other forests straight away and then chop one more forest outside the fat cross. This way we have hammers invested at 2:1 that could possibly turn into gold if we get beaten to the wall (lower than our wall chop 3:1, but still greatly useful at this stage). If somehow we finish it within 12 turns in Carthage, a GE would be fine since he can bulb Machinery and we self research Optics.

*Conquest is becoming more favourable. Say, for domination we need 30-40 settlers, well... we could win conquest with 30 units plus our existing promoted army. For speedy conquest we would be best sending our first wave (4 galleons of promoted units) to the furthest AI civ and leave the purple AI for our second/third wave.

I agree to chop walls in Sparta too, and walls chops in Gold city plus Horse city need to come ASAP to remove any research bottleneck. Chops from Carthage/Sparta/Gold city/Horse city should take our research through to Astro.

Chops from barb city can fuel the Galleon upgrades.

I think we need a 3rd settler to nestle in another forested area for chopping cash for Civil Service/upgrades

Edit: it's freakish when you go to bed with a few ideas about the game and wake up to see all your ideas and even better ones already waiting for you on the message boards!!

 

[leif erikson]

Great Wall will be more useful when we actually have galleons to load troops on. I wouldn't build it now though. Not chopping some gold in Sparta will most likely mean turning off research for a couple turns.

I'm afraid Great Wall may not be available if we don't build it soon. I thought about it...

In order to keep from polluting the gene pool in Carthage, why not build it in Ivoryville. There are 5 forests available to chop outside its borders and the workers are close by. The Barracks can complete after the chops.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I looked at the timing of our GS's and of the remaining research. As far as I can see we should be able to get our 4th GS around 22 turns from now. Our tech speed is, however, not good - probably because we have not been REXing fast enough. It seems that we need 31 turns to finalize research of Machinery. So I think we need to focus a lot on getting some more beakers. Note, that saving gold has absolutely no positive influence on beakers per turn. We are about 50 bpt short. Settling Gold City will help and improving the dye tile Near Timbuktu and the spices near Carthage will also help. Hiring 6 scientists in Athens will help. We might even consider hiring some scientist in some of the other cites. Even at size 1 Bantu will provide 8 bpt with a plantation on the dyes. Gold city will give 9 bpt at size 1 working the gold mine. I think a realistic goal is to bring down research time to 25 turns.

Anyway, my message is that we should focus on actions that will increase the number of high commerce tiles we can work.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"*Conquest is becoming more favourable. Say, for domination we need 30-40 settlers, well... we could win conquest with 30 units plus our existing promoted army. For speedy conquest we would be best sending our first wave (4 galleons of promoted units) to the furthest AI civ and leave the purple AI for our second/third wave." I'm leaning in this direction too, but there are possible map configurations for which this would not be optimal. We may well have to send our first loaded galleons out without knowing where we're going to unload them.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I noticed that the Great Wall is still "on the table". If it's still available when we are getting close to Astronomy, I think this would be a very good use of 3 forests (maybe the ones outside of the fat cross of Tim or Carthage). Without barbs to worry about, our warriors can pull MP duty and all of our axes and swords will be available to make war on the AI.

I think "close to Astronomy" is the key word here. Right now I would prefer that all worker actions are directed towards chopping gold and improving tiles with high commerce or food potential. The reason is the calculation I did in my previous post showing that we need to boost our tech speed considerably in order to get Astronomy ASAP. The Great Wall costs 188 hammers and if we want to chop it with forests outside cultural border we need to chop 6-7 forests which consumes 30-35 worker turns + the time it takes to move the workers to the forests. When we have captured the 2 barb cities and founded Gold City and Horse City we have covered most of the continent so maybe we are trying to solve a problem that will be much less critical anyway in the near future.

Edit:

*Consider building Great Wall in Carthage right away - the cost of 3 swords or just over 4 chops. We could put the overflow from the wall chop into the Great Wall and chop the two other forests straight away and then chop one more forest outside the fat cross. This way we have hammers invested at 2:1 that could possibly turn into gold if we get beaten to the wall (lower than our wall chop 3:1, but still greatly useful at this stage). If somehow we finish it within 12 turns in Carthage, a GE would be fine since he can bulb Machinery and we self research Optics.

This is a better option since it doesn't require a lot of worker turns and as JT says, a GE would be even better than a GS. And on top we get extra GP points.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

EDIT: crossposted.

How about the Great Wall in Carthage with the overflow from the current chop plus the two prechopped forests? We aren't sidetracking many worker turns in this case. As I said, the GE pollution (if we get it built in 12 turns) won't matter since GE can bulb Machinery and we get OK gold conversion for our hammers if we get beaten to it since we are building with stone.

Carthage doesn't really need it's granary until right before we are ready to start slaving again. (I admit it will help a little in growing once the scientists are fired).

A tiny boost in commerce may come from cottaging the Ivoryville floodplains once it grows to size 7 and is using all of its best tiles.

We see we have a current bottleneck with techspeed, do our predictions with future gold chop quantities and timings limit our 100% research for these crucial next 25 turns?

 

[Frederiksberg]

We see we have a current bottleneck with techspeed, do our predictions with future gold chop quantities and timings limit our 100% research for these crucial next 25 turns?

Let's say our deficit is 100 gpt. One forest yields around 135 gold. After the chop in Carthage we will have around 900 gold in the treasury. This means that we need to chop around 12 more forests into gold in order to finance our research. Most likely a little more. We can chop 3 in Sparta, 5 in Gold City and 8 in Horse City and that should be enough. Gold City should be founded 4 turns from now unless the barb axe creates problems and Horse City in 8 turns from now. If we chop all 3 forests into gold in Sparta we have around 13 turns before we must chop again. Looks OK if we play carefully.

*Conquest is becoming more favourable. Say, for domination we need 30-40 settlers, well... we could win conquest with 30 units plus our existing promoted army. For speedy conquest we would be best sending our first wave (4 galleons of promoted units) to the furthest AI civ and leave the purple AI for our second/third wave.

Our 3 unknown rivals will most likely have around 6 cities each so conquest will require that we capture 18 cities. Doesn't sound that difficult if we can get to them before they have longbows.