SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

We should be aiming for very specific plans now. How can we win this in 10-12 turns?

Wow!! Doesn't seem like many turns...

This places the question of Medina squarely on the table.

Looks like we need more galleons at ... everywhere. Ironsite and Athens can both whip galleons after building them for 3 turns.

I'm counting 7 turns for the 3 Galleons headed for Persepolis to return to Athens. Then it is another 3 for them to get to Haithabu. You're right, we need more Galleons and a plan on what gets shipped where.

 

[DJMGator13]

Great news on Mecca

Definately time to pour more gas on the fire. We need to look at whipping our western production cities as well if this is the final push. I haven't looked at the save yet so no real ideas.

EDIT: Confirming that Great Wall is continental, a barb sword attacked Baghdad during my set.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Well done, rrau.

I probably won't have time to post a plan until late tomorrow night (about 26 hours from now) at the earliest. Soliciting all advice and counsel in the meantime.

 

[leif erikson]

I probably won't have time to post a plan until late tomorrow night (about 26 hours from now) at the earliest. Soliciting all advice and counsel in the meantime.

No problem on the timing. I think there wil be much to discuss and digest.

Thanks Gator for the confirmation. I wonder if it would be worth trying to "give" used up cities to Barbs...

 

[DJMGator13]

Land Area/Tile Count

Rival Best 62 Persia
Rival Worst 32 Vikings
to make the average = 50 would take Arabia at size 56

Vikings 32 tiles
Nidaros/Uppsala area = 15
Birka = 16
31 of 32 accounted for.

Arabia 56 tiles
Medina = 19
Dam = 11
Kufah = 19
Hait = 7
only 47 of 56, short 9 tiles
so either Hait counts for Arabia or we're missing a 9 tile city - [EDIT: or does Baghdad count for Arabia, we % share the tiles]

Persia 62 tiles
Tarsus = 2
Gordium = 4

Southern fog city (Pers ???) = 37? [a 2nd cultural expansion city matches perfectly to shape and influence on Birka]


Northern fog city (or cities) = 18? [5 visible (2 @ 9 each fit tile count but not the shape and influence on Kufah, and 30 tiles is way too many) But it is 7 tiles from top to bottom so it can't be 1 city.]

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work Gator.

What I don't get is why Haithabu, the founding city of Judaism, is not expanded in culture? It must be an Arabian city and we have been looking at it since your last turn set and it remains unexpanded????

How did the Arabs get it and how long have they had it?

EDIT - btw, the power graph is looking real nice.

 

[DJMGator13]

Nice work Gator.

What I don't get is why Haithabu, the founding city of Judaism, is not expanded in culture? It must be an Arabian city and we have been looking at it since your last turn set and it remains unexpanded????

How did the Arabs get it and how long have they had it?

EDIT - btw, the power graph is looking real nice.

They had to have either captured it or culturally flipped it from Mecca's overwhelming culture. More likely the culture flip since they have been sharing roads and playing nice with each other when we met them.

Arabia is Bud, so they only earn culture from religion in cities with Bud.

 

[leif erikson]

They had to have either captured it or culturally flipped it from Mecca's overwhelming culture. More likely the culture flip since they have been sharing roads and playing nice with each other when we met them.

That's an awfully long reach from Mecca. It will be interesting to see what happens when the fog lifts.

Arabia is Bud, so they only earn culture from religion in cities with Bud.

Forgive me, I always forget this as I seldom claim a religion in a game.

I was wondering if we think it might be smart to move one of our Arabian Galleons 2 tiles, to get a look inside Damascus? It might help us decide how to split forces between Damascus and Kufah? The move really would affect anything as the Galleon could still move back 1 turn and be adjacent to the road and have enough movement to cuddle up to Damascus in the same turn.

Should we go back to the screenies of the cities we have seen and post a count of units we know have been in various cities and try to estimate their strengths? Is there a better way to figure out how many units we need in which places?

Transportation is rapidly becoming the log jam here...

Off to visit Morpheus... :sleep;

 

[DJMGator13]

Should we go back to the screenies of the cities we have seen and post a count of units we know have been in various cities and try to estimate their strengths? Is there a better way to figure out how many units we need in which places?

That with an estimate of where they are on the research path might allow us to match them up to their Power/Soldier Rating. Ragnar now shows as the most powerful and we can see inside 2 of his 3 cities, so we should be able to estimate the number of units inside his 3rd city. Since we haven't seen longbows yet, they should all be close to each other on the points from techs.

My guess (no math involved): With the other 2 AI's having more cities than Ragnar, they can't have more than 3-4 units in each, some with less.

 

[rrau]

I assume as you uploaded the save that this is a handover?

Yes, I was done with 6 turns and I thought that was the length we'd agreed on now.......Besides, someone else deserves some fun!

 

[Cactus Pete]

rrau . . . Is your save, which I have downloaded from the thread (post 1197), the official one that I can eventually play, or do I need to get it at GOTM central?

 

[Frederiksberg]

Well done with capturing Mecca and seizing the opportunity to mop up some Arab units in the open. That archer is much better to attack outside a city.

They had to have either captured it or culturally flipped it from Mecca's overwhelming culture. More likely the culture flip since they have been sharing roads and playing nice with each other when we met them.

Most likely Haithabu was captured by barbs at some point and then recaptured by the Arabs at a point where they already had converted to Budhism.

Just took a look at the graphs in the SGOTM Results page. Check out OSS in the power graph.

Some serious pop-rushing must be going on there?

I saw it. Looks like they are very serious competition and they may be ahead of us judging from the time they started pop rushing. It will be very interesting to see when Smurkz and Gipsy Kings start their pop rushing. Or maybe we should just wrap up our own game and go look in their threads .

 

[leif erikson]

Yes, I was done with 6 turns and I thought that was the length we'd agreed on now.......Besides, someone else deserves some fun!

Thanks rrau. There have been so many stopping points that I lose track of where we are in turns sometimes.

It took me a while to find the last time we posted the roster.

rrau . . . Is your save, which I have downloaded from the thread (post 1197), the official one that I can eventually play, or do I need to get it at GOTM central?

The save in post 1197 is the same one on GOTM Central.

 

[ShannonCT]

Arabia 56 tiles
Medina = 19
Dam = 11
Kufah = 19
Hait = 7
only 47 of 56, short 9 tiles
so either Hait counts for Arabia or we're missing a 9 tile city - [EDIT: or does Baghdad count for Arabia, we % share the tiles]

There's probably an Arabian city in the fog south of Baghdad.

Persia 62 tiles
Tarsus = 2
Gordium = 4

Southern fog city (Pers ???) = 37? [a 2nd cultural expansion city matches perfectly to shape and influence on Birka]

Northern fog city (or cities) = 18? [5 visible (2 @ 9 each fit tile count but not the shape and influence on Kufah, and 30 tiles is way too many) But it is 7 tiles from top to bottom so it can't be 1 city.]

The southern fog city may be be losing as many as 10 tiles of its possible 37 to Birka and to water. There's definitely water visible on the edge of the fog. Persepolis may be on a bay.

If Persepolis was occupying 26 tiles, that would leave 30. The northern fog could still be one Level 3 city if it's losing some tiles to Kufah and to lakes. Otherwise, I don't see how 2 different cities could be making that tile shape.

 

[leif erikson]

I copied this from this post. I've added some updates so we can have a look at where we are?

In Arabia:
Mecca - Size 7 with culture = 60% - defended by three Archers (with 4 to 5 promotions) plus two Chariots. It is on a HILL.
Medina - Size 6 with a culture = 20% - defended by a single Archer with 2 promotions. It is on Grass.
Damascus - Size 5 with culture = 20% - defended by two Archers with 3 promotions each. It is on Desert.
Najran - Size 4 with culture = 20% - defended by two Archers, one with 2 promotions and one with 3 promotions. It is on Desert.
Haithabu - Size 3 without culture atm - defended by a Warrior? It is on Plains.
Kufah - Update - Size 2 with 20% (?) culture - defended by two Archers, one with 3 promotions and one with 2 promotions. It is on a HILL.
Perhaps another city in the fog?

In Persia:
Pasargadae - Size 11 with culture = 50% - defended by one Axe (with 2 promotions, One Spear with 2 promos and one Archer with no promos. It is on Grass.
Ecbatana - Size 6 with culture = 20% - defended by a single Spear with 2 promos. It is on a HILL.
Tarsus - Size 4 with no culture atm. - defended by one Spear with 1 promo. It is on Plains.
Gordium - Size 2 with no culture atm. - defended by one Axe, one Cat and one Spear, each with 1 promo. It is on Plains.
Add Persepolis - in the fog.
Add Susa - in the fog

The Vikings:
Nidaros - Updated - Size 14 with 40% culture - defended by one Sword, with CBT1 promo, one Spear, with CBT1 promo, one Cats, with Barrage 1, two Archers with CG1 promomand one Horse Archer with CBT1 and Shock. It is on a HILL.
Uppsala - Updated - Size 7 with culture = 40% - defended by two Archers, no promo, one Sword, with CBT1 promo, one Horse Archer with CBT1 and Shock promos and one Spear, with Cbt1 promo. There is also a Settler in the city. It is on a HILL.
Birka - Size 6 with culture = 50% - defended by one Axe and one Spear, both with Cbt1 and Cbt2 promos. It is on a HILL.

 

[Mistfit]

I have been playing domination games for the HoF and have found that Mountains - Lakes - Sea - Coast - Ocean tiles are not counted towards domination.. so could this be effecting your tile counts?

 

[Frederiksberg]

Good work, leif. I think the data for Nidaros and Uppsala can be updated using rrau's last intermediate save.

We should be aiming for very specific plans now. How can we win this in 10-12 turns?

I agree with this. We should at least try to formulate a plan that wins in 12 turns to see if that is possible. We would need to make some assuptions on the placement and garison of cities in the fog.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I have been playing domination games for the HoF and have found that Mountains - Lakes - Sea - Coast - Ocean tiles are not counted towards domination.. so could this be effecting your tile counts?

This is true and I think Gator has already taken this effect into account where he had the information.

 

[leif erikson]

Good work, leif. I think the data for Nidaros and Uppsala can be updated using rrau's last intermediate save.

It is now updated. Sorry I didn't do it earlier. Ran out of time! I had the post all set up and then lost it...

I agree with this. We should at least try to formulate a plan that wins in 12 turns to see if that is possible. We would need to make some assumptions on the placement and garrison of cities in the fog.

I think we can make some pretty good assumptions based upon what we've seen and the data Gator and SCT have worked up concerning power ratings and troop levels. The locations shouldn't be too hard to figure using the culture maps, as Gator has done. We just need to put it all together...

Got to go to a meeting this afternoon. See you all this evening...

 

[Cactus Pete]

Just looked at the save and have some thoughts for discussion . . .

Appears rrau has left me a no-brainer in Nottingham. If it's NOT[/B] the case that all I have to do there is do nothing there and next turn we chop gold, then please advise.

I've taken the liberty to move MP's FL and found that Damascus has 20% culture and is defended by 2 thrice-promoted archers and 2 chariots (plus 2 workers and a missionary). MP's galleon continues to sail around the penninsula, as I see no need for 2 galleons to transport troops from Mecca that are going to heal or be whipped sequentially -- plus, I can drop off and re-load on the same turn. Moreover, I want to find out what is in Medina.

re Damascus: SCT, can you tell me the odds for a 3CR sword vs. a CG2/Drill1 archer fortified in a desert city at 20% culture as opposed to a Combat2 WE vs. the same defender?

Concerned about Pasargardae: The cat is highly likely to attack the city next turn with about a 47% chance of winning and a 100% chance of inflicting considerable damage. (Won't his attack occur before units have healed?) Hope someone has a better idea, but here are the two approaches I am considering: (1) move the worker this turn onto the tile immediately south of the cat. I do not expect the cat to be distracted (though possibly), but the worker will reveal tiles, and I do hope any attacking unit within the city will go after the worker and thus be delayed in following up against Pasargadae: or (2) move the worker onto the farm 2 tiles due east of Pasargadae to serve again as a distraction (though not as good, since Arab archer may attack him first) and to find out if there are any attacking units inside the Persian city (it's on a hill, so will be revealed), then attack cat with WE (62% success) if no attackers present and leave WE in city to defend if there are. Of course, I plan to land units from Fred's Ferry onto the forest (unless the bay is two tiles deep) next turn, which should serve as further distraction.

re Ecbatana: I'm uncertain how many hammers we will get out of the chop next turn when the city expands. It may be enough to build an archer and, ideally, have at least one hammer left over to cheapen the whip the following turn. Can anyone accurately predict the chop hammers plus city production? If we can't get an archer in one turn, I wonder whether we want to produce one on the following turn or whip a crossbow or WE next turn. Like to hear opinions on this.

Depending upon what is in the Persian city SW of pasargadae, the stacked loaded galleons may not all need to go there. In particular, there is the possibility of temporarily anchoring the three stacked galleons in mid-turn SW of the hill SW of Ecbatana to drop three units on the hill, rearrange the remainder on two galleons, and thus free the third to return towards Athens or Ironsite for chaining. The three dropped units could protect Ectabana and be picked up later or moved toward Birka.