SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Settle on the Dyes and we're off and running.

On Goody Huts - I found the post linked below. It was in the General Discussion thread...
Goody Hut Probabilities

From reading the thread, I believe these probabilities are for Warrior pops as they include the possibility of Barbarians. Popping huts with Scouts or Culture should never result in hostile Barbs. Hope it helps.

EDIT - My other request would be to see if we can Scout around our other Gold Hill to see what the possibilities are for a city site there. Hoping for Copper or Horses. Good luck!

How is the storm in CT? Hope you keep your power up and running as the snow here is heavy and wet. Over 6 inches so far but it should turn to rain soon?

EDIT2 - Please go ahead and play through the discovery of Animal Husbandry as I think it may be 41 or 42 turns. Then we won't have to stop playing again to discuss Horses versus Copper, I hope!

 

[ShannonCT]

Settle on the Dyes and we're off and running.

On Goody Huts - I found the post linked below. It was in the General Discussion thread...
Goody Hut Probabilities

From reading the thread, I believe these probabilities are for Warrior pops as they include the possibility of Barbarians. Popping huts with Scouts or Culture should never result in hostile Barbs. Hope it helps.

EDIT - My other request would be to see if we can Scout around our other Gold Hill to see what the possibilities are for a city site there. Hoping for Copper or Horses. Good luck!

Thanks, that was what I was looking for. I notice in the thread that there is a 5% chance of getting a lot of barbs, and that you dont get barbs if the hut is 8 tiles or less from your capital. I don't plan on sending our first warrior out any distance that would risk our capital. I'll scout with our second warrior far enough to look for copper or horse but not so far that he cant protect our workers.

How is the storm in CT? Hope you keep your power up and running as the snow here is heavy and wet. Over 6 inches so far but it should turn to rain soon?

It was a messy slush this morning and tough to drive in.

EDIT2 - Please go ahead and play through the discovery of Animal Husbandry as I think it may be 41 or 42 turns. Then we won't have to stop playing again to discuss Horses versus Copper, I hope!

Will do.

 

[rrau]

Good luck. I hope there's either horses or copper!

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

I don't plan on sending our first warrior out any distance that would risk our capital. I'll scout with our second warrior far enough to look for copper or horse but not so far that he cant protect our workers.

Ok, so the plan for first warrior is scout land very close to capital but stay in range to return to capital if AI warrior appears? Sounds good.

Plan for second warrior is scout further, especially looking for city site number two, but stay in range of workers if barb warrior/archer appears? I am tempted to send the 2nd warrior out on our first enemy scout-and-aggravate mission. But I do see that returning him to guard our workers is prudent since the consequence of losing two early workers is unbearable. When will we have our 3rd warrior built? (around turn 47)? Maybe he will arrive early enough for worker protection and 2nd warrior can indeed scout-and-aggravate. I still haven't played a test game to check out the possible threats during the first 47 turns (haven't been free to play CIV the last 5-6 days).

I reviewed plans for Test 2. An excellent stategy that gets us quickly to 1 warrior 2 workers and has the tech speed to find horses and copper when settler is ready. I like it.

What are our early goals beyond the starting turns and 2nd city founding?

I suspect most aspects of our main strategy are still up in the air and will be decided upon as we gather more information about our home continent - this is fine. However, we must be prepared to take our time in the future to discuss and rediscuss our strategy as new information comes to light to ensure long term planning is not forgotten.

 

[leif erikson]

What are our early goals beyond the starting turns and 2nd city founding?

I suspect most aspects of our main strategy are still up in the air and will be decided upon as we gather more information about our home continent - this is fine. However, we must be prepared to take our time in the future to discuss and rediscuss our strategy as new information comes to light to ensure long term planning is not forgotten.

Yes, I think there will be much to discuss.

It is going to be tough to talk about much until we see what we have to work with. Let's see if any Copper or Horses are near enough to snag, or will we need Iron Working and Construction?

 

[ShannonCT]

It is going to be tough to talk about much until we see what we have to work with. Let's see if any Copper or Horses are near enough to snag, or will we need Iron Working and Construction?

We will find out soon. Playing now...

 

[ShannonCT]

OK folks, I've played through turn 25 and have stopped in order to allow for a discussion on a fortuitous discovery unearthed near London.

My report so far:

Turn 0: Settle on dyes. Start BW and warrior, work 2f1h tile. We didn't miss any resources to the SW or NE by settling on the dyes. There are more bananas in our fat cross, and there is a cow on a 1 tile island in the SW ocean/lake.

Spoiler :

Turns 2-7: Nothing to do but hit enter.

Turn 8: Borders pop, begin working bananas for 3f1c. Rice is revealed to the SE.

Spoiler :

Turn 9: enter.

Turn 10: Malinese scout appears from the north.

Spoiler :

Turns 11-12: Enter, enter.

Turn 13: Carthagenian scout appears from south.

Spoiler :

Turn 14: warrior->worker, Pop2, work additional 3 yield tile. Warrior begins exploring north.

Turns 15-18: Exploring, trying to catch a scout out in the open. They're tricky buggers.

Turn 19: BW->Agriculture, revolt to slavery. And we have copper in our fat cross! The mined copper will eventually be 1f5h1c.

Spoiler :

Turn 20-23: Exploring south, no scouts killed yet.

Turn 24: whip worker

Turn 25: worker->worker

The northern lands:

Spoiler :

The southern lands:

Spoiler :

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, I am sitting at the beginning of turn 25 thinking about whether our newly built worker should mine the gold first or the copper first. I am leaning toward copper, but we will have to run some tests.

One odd thing is that both Mali and Carthage met me with scouts, while neither actually starts with Hunting. Either their warriors popped scouts from huts or they were added in Worldbuilder (maybe replacing warriors?).

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Copper! Great start. Thanks for the clear write-up and screenies.

Definitely worth testing copper vs gold mine. My hunch is that production is better than commerce in the early years of this game.

Copper is connected via river so we will lose the ability to build warriors as soon as it is done (not necessarily a bad thing).

For copper first, there is a possible gambit for moving first axeman straight to an AI capital. If he finds warriors, we are in business. I'm guessing this might be around turn 70. Carthage start with mining and fishing, we could run some tests on Prince with a bunch of Carthage civ's and see when they discovery archery and what their initial builds are. If the window of opportunity is open and the probabilites are with us it would be a great boost. Know thy enemy!

 

[leif erikson]

Without testing, my preference would be to get the Gold Hill up and running to boost research. In AW, we cannot trade and we need to get a research edge on the AI if possible. We also have a second city to get set up and running, precluding the production of Axes for a short period of time. During that time, we can be researching.

The other thing I ran into in testing was the emergence of both Chariots and Horse Archers. Do we need to research Hunting in order to produce Spears? Chariots eat Axes in Warlords...

 

[ShannonCT]

Copper is connected via river so we will lose the ability to build warriors as soon as it is done (not necessarily a bad thing).

We can still build warriors after copper is hooked as long as we dont have hunting, since spearmen also replace warriors and spearmen require hunting.

For copper first, there is a possible gambit for moving first axeman straight to an AI capital. If he finds warriors, we are in business. I'm guessing this might be around turn 70. Carthage start with mining and fishing, we could run some tests on Prince with a bunch of Carthage civ's and see when they discovery archery and what their initial builds are. If the window of opportunity is open and the probabilites are with us it would be a great boost. Know thy enemy!

If we could pull this off against one of our neighbors, it would be huge, and would certainly offset any commerce lost. If we could pull it off against both, it would be gamebreaking.

Let me highlight what we know about our enemies so far. Malinese scout appeared from the north on Turn 10 (3700BC). Carthagenian scout appeared from the south on Turn 13 (3610BC). As of Turn 25, no AI warriors have appeared.

 

[ShannonCT]

Without testing, my preference would be to get the Gold Hill up and running to boost research. In AW, we cannot trade and we need to get a research edge on the AI if possible. We also have a second city to get set up and running, precluding the production of Axes for a short period of time. During that time, we can be researching.

What better second city than an AI capital?

The other thing I ran into in testing was the emergence of both Chariots and Horse Archers. Do we need to research Hunting in order to produce Spears? Chariots eat Axes in Warlords...

We are now in a great position to deny our neighbors access to strategic resources and to take them out early. If Mali or Carthage ever hooks up horses, we've done something terribly wrong.

 

[ShannonCT]

Two ideas involving mining copper first:

Idea 1: Worker mines copper immediately and we continue to produce second worker. First worker moves to forest after finishing mine and chops forest. When second worker finishes via said chop, begin producing axe and move each worker to a different forest. Chop two forests. Axe 1 is produced on turn 44, and axe 2 is produced on turn 45. Animal Husbandry also finishes on turn 45, and both workers go work on the cows. Both axes head either north or south and sweep the area looking for an AI capital. They converge on the capital as stealthily as possible and attack.

Idea 2: Everything the same except after second worker is produced, build warrior with the overflow. Warrior is completed on turn 39. A few turns before that (if no AI warriors are near), one of our existing warriors goes searching for an AI capital and new warrior replaces him as the worker/improvement defender. Axe 1 is produced on Turn 44 and axe 2 is produced on turn 47. Both axes go to attack AI capital.

One more...

Idea 3: Gyathaar is just screwing with us and there are no AI cities on our continent. The scouts were placed on our continent to screw with us.

 

[Frederiksberg]

So, I am sitting at the beginning of turn 25 thinking about whether our newly built worker should mine the gold first or the copper first. I am leaning toward copper, but we will have to run some tests.

I think it's a good idea to take a short break now before you play the remaining turns. Could you post the save so that we can all take a look?

I like the hyper aggressive approach proposed by JT and I think we should run some tests as suggested to see when the AI gets archers. The Malinese should be our top priority since they start with Wheel and we have to get to them before they can hook up horses.

We can still build warriors after copper is hooked as long as we dont have hunting, since spearmen also replace warriors and spearmen require hunting.

I didn't know this. It means that we may want to postpone research of Hunting until we have the warriors we want. They are cheap units to build and they can be useful as MP's, fog busters and scouts.

I have played test game 1 up to around 800 BC. I saw the same AI behavior as Shannon has already described: When I parked a warrior in a forest or forest hill near their city they would keep their workers idle in the city but they would still send out settlers accompanied by two archers and they would also send out small stacks of archers to pillage and attack my cities. I had some trouble with a woodsman 2 warrior (2 movement points in forests!) - don't forget to check the promotions of approaching enemy warriors. If we can take out an enemy civ super early it will be great because the game gets a bit rough when you have met 4-5 civs and they all start sending small stacks of archers against your cities. One main problem is then to protect strategic resources like copper, iron and horses against pillaging.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Two ideas involving mining copper first:

Idea 1: Worker mines copper immediately and we continue to produce second worker. First worker moves to forest after finishing mine and chops forest. When second worker finishes via said chop, begin producing axe and move each worker to a different forest. Chop two forests. Axe 1 is produced on turn 44, and axe 2 is produced on turn 45. Animal Husbandry also finishes on turn 45, and both workers go work on the cows. Both axes head either north or south and sweep the area looking for an AI capital. They converge on the capital as stealthily as possible and attack.

Idea 2: Everything the same except after second worker is produced, build warrior with the overflow. Warrior is completed on turn 39. A few turns before that (if no AI warriors are near), one of our existing warriors goes searching for an AI capital and new warrior replaces him as the worker/improvement defender. Axe 1 is produced on Turn 44 and axe 2 is produced on turn 47. Both axes go to attack AI capital.

2 unpromoted axes are probably not enough if the AI has more than 1 archer so I guess everything depends on the expected window of opportunity. How much faster would we get the first axe if we postpone the 2nd worker?

 

[leif erikson]

I like the hyper aggressive approach proposed by JT and I think we should run some tests as suggested to see when the AI gets archers. The Malinese should be our top priority since they start with Wheel and we have to get to them before they can hook up horses.

If we can take out an enemy civ super early it will be great because the game gets a bit rough when you have met 4-5 civs and they all start sending small stacks of archers against your cities. One main problem is then to protect strategic resources like copper, iron and horses against pillaging.

Idea 1: Worker mines copper immediately and we continue to produce second worker. First worker moves to forest after finishing mine and chops forest. When second worker finishes via said chop, begin producing axe and move each worker to a different forest. Chop two forests. Axe 1 is produced on turn 44, and axe 2 is produced on turn 45. Animal Husbandry also finishes on turn 45, and both workers go work on the cows. Both axes head either north or south and sweep the area looking for an AI capital. They converge on the capital as stealthily as possible and attack.

Thinking about this over dinner I am growing to like it as well.

And I think I prefer idea 1.

What better second city than an AI capital?

I have some concerns over this strategy. In playing test games, I had a difficult time supporting this. As the cities were so far apart, the roads were constantly being pillaged and it required Axes posted on hills to keep it cleared. Distance maintenance also took a bite out of research rate. That depends upon how far away the cities are, of course. And, lastly, what the map looks like for bonuses, etc. in the civ's capital. They are generally pretty good, but the city needs to carry itself financially.

I think it's a good idea to take a short break now before you play the remaining turns. Could you post the save so that we can all take a look?

Yes, good idea. It is probably best to upload the save through that submission system. You can get there by clicking here.

EDIT -

2 unpromoted axes are probably not enough if the AI has more than 1 archer so I guess everything depends on the expected window of opportunity. How much faster would we get the first axe if we postpone the 2nd worker?

In several of the test games I tried, there were still Warriors guarding cities after I had Axes. Anyone else experience this? If we get them out by turn 45 or so, I think we may find some Warriors.

EDIT2 - The power graph on the submission page looks interesting. Almost as though some teams are chopping Axes around turn 30?

 

[Cactus Pete]

ShannonCT . . . Well played, outstanding report.

Agree this is a critical juncture and we should pause to plot.

A few initial thoughts:

Our capital is potentially an extremely powerful city, and we should strive to grow it to that potential.

Don't think any AI will have chariots before archers, so that's not a big concern right now, since we shouldn't put all our eggs in the basket of an attack vs. archers anyway. Rush only works for me if we can get there in time to deal with only warrior defenders, and it's not at all clear to me that we can. Great if someone will test this, although a bit hard without knowing what resources the AI city site contains.

If either AI has built a scout (as opposed to hut pop or some "mystery" effect), then their capital must be quite close. If we decide to go for an axe rush, then we need to think about how soon it will be safe (or reasonably safe -- getting to size 2 would help -- we need to push this envelope) to get our warriors out exploring. If we can't find a target to capture by the turn our second axe chop comes in, then we probably should put that chop into a settler instead.

An unsuccessful axe rush will significantly delay our research and thus our ability to take over the world quickly.

 

[ShannonCT]

Save from Turn 25 has been posted.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Xteam_SG006_BC3250_01.CivWarlordsSave

 

[leif erikson]

Just played four test games, two as Carthage and two as Mali, using the start I was given on a random map. In all cases, I beelined Hunting and then Archery, required about 18 or 19 turns. The first Archer was produced at about turn 40 using the dangerous approach of Worker and then Archer. I think we can expect Archers to be present anytime after turn 45 or so?

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Don't think any AI will have chariots before archers, so that's not a big concern right now, since we shouldn't put all our eggs in the basket of an attack vs. archers anyway. Rush only works for me if we can get there in time to deal with only warrior defenders, and it's not at all clear to me that we can. Great if someone will test this, although a bit hard without knowing what resources the AI city site contains.

There is some redundancy in the early axe plan. It isn't a complete loss if we come across an AI capital we can't capture, we can still park an axe in the vacinity and lock them down and deny worker improvements.

I ran a quick test game with huge fractal map, Prince setting with 10 Hannibal opponents. I artifically made contact with them all (DoW with AW setting) around turn 13 to mimic our current game. The first AI archer was built on turn 39. 6/10 of the AI's had an archer by turn 59. For us, if we have 2 axes at turn 45 we would need luck on our side to find a capital with warriors only by turn 60. The reward is large so it is worth testing/discussing further.

get our warriors out exploring

Exploration from one of our current warriors would be very valuable if we are thinking of early axes. In test games is there ever an instance when an enemy unit has entered your territory before turn 45? If we can convince each other we are safe with only one warrior at home then we should locate the enemy capital straight away.

Side note - One interesting thing I found is that before I declared war the AI cities were happily building workers or workboats with only 1 warrior defending. After I made contact/declared war they ALL switched to building a second warrior for defence.

If either AI has built a scout (as opposed to hut pop or some "mystery" effect),

I think there is no chance the AI have built those scouts, they must be from hut or world builder. I dread the situation ShannonCT mentioned where Gyaathar is messing with us and Mali/Carthage aren't actually our neighbours .

 

[DJMGator13]

Very good start. I like the rush idea - might even find a worker in that capital. Production and units are probably more crucial than than the commerce. We should gain gold from capturing the AI capital.

It would be nice to know which one was closer to us to minimize the distance cost. The assumption would be that the Mali capital is closer because their scout reached us 3 turns earlier. But looking at the terrain that may not be the case. The Mali scout appeared from the north which currently appears to give him both moves, while the Cart scout came from the south (more likely south east based on map) which looks like he only used 1mp for a good portion of his moves.

In my test game, I built an archer after the rax and he had +90% city defense (75 from the 2 promos and 15 from culture). So we may want to get Hunting and Archery if we find the other AIs have chariots and/or axes. But I'd much rather play this game on the offensive.