SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[ShannonCT]

By 207, we could attack it with a healed WE and still have a nearly-healed axe in the city. Moreover, we'll have landed Fred's Ferry, so they might not even try to counterattack the WE if it wins.

It's a shame to lose a CR3 sword like this but if it gets us 2-3 cats, I guess it's a good trade-off. I'm fine with JT's plan here.

Anxious to hear what the team's choice of the best bad Pasargadae option is, as well as comments on the routing of galleons for troop transport.

Your galleon routing plan also sounds reasonable. Ecbatana's three units can still move toward Birka next turn and the Xbow built there can follow behind. Birka has 50% culture so it would be good to get a cat working on it soon.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Anxious to hear what the team's choice of the best bad Pasargadae option is, as well as comments on the routing of galleons for troop transport.

If we can get these two issues in agreement, what about my playing mid-morning tomorrow (about 16hours from now). Like to have the freedom to play 5-7 turns, depending on how it goes, but I would pause for consultation should new problems arise, as I expect they will.

I don't know the transport/galley situation from the current save so don't have an opinion on this. For Pasargadae I think we either keep all units inside the city and take our chances against the catapult or we suicide our sword to prevent catapult attacking.

5-7 turns is quite a lot and should only be played if you have a very good idea of where all units need to be. Even if you don't strike any problems, stopping for a mid-turn examination (or kind-of health check) can give the team a chance to pitch in, even if all we have to say is "everything's looking really good!

 

[Frederiksberg]

Plan looks good to me. It would be nice to have more details - I am particularly missing numbers.

I prefer a solution where we try to hang on to Parsagadea. JT's suggestion is fine and sounds more safe than the others.

Some numbers:

We are now at T205 and aiming for conquest at T217 (+- a few turns).

The distance from Persepolis to Susa is 7 moves using roads. This means that units used in the capture of Persepolis will not be available to reinforce the Susa attack before T219 even withoput healing. Distance from Persepolis to Gordium is probably 4 but could be 5 so Persepolis units could possibly help here. Medina is even further away (8 moves).

Distance from Parsagadea to Susa is 5 moves so units built until T212 can be used to reinforce attack. Distance to Medina is 7 moves. Trip from Damascus to Kufah is 5 moves meaning that Damascus and Medina need to be captured or razed on T212 only 7 turns from now. Better hope that there is only one archer in Medina then. If we keep Damascus the galleon trip from Medina to outside Mecca is only 2 moves.

Distance to unknown Arab city? A guess is 4 moves from both Persepolis and Haithabu. Might be able to pull forces from both cities.

Ironsite galleon, York galleon, and Athens galleon land 9 units north of Upsalla on turn 210, and then return to their respective ports for a second wave. These 9 units attack Upsalla after bombardment, and the survivors walk to Nidaros.

Nine units may not be enough to overcome 5-6 defenders on a hilltop city - what are the prospects of getting more units there? It's a 4 move walk from Uppsala to Nidaros so T213 should be our latest time of capture.

CP, are you on top of the multiple unit whip we probably need to apply in Parsagadea and maybe also Mecca to prevent starvation?

Should we keep Persepolis instead of razing? It might allow us to whip a late Horse Archer in Parsagadea (connecting horses). We will never pay any maintenance for it but it may require some sort of garrison. Keeping Damascus will allow us to whip other units than cats and archers in Mecca and it will shorten the galleon trip to/from Medina.

 

[leif erikson]

I am fine with sacrificing the CR3 Sword to keep Pasargadae. We'll need the Cats from there at Susa, I think.

I see the logic in your proposal for moving the Galleons. I hope the force at Persepolis will be sufficient.

I'm a bit fuzzy about after this, so please bear with me. Once we have razed Persepolis, will those units head for Gordium and Tarsus, perhaps a few headed for Susa? And the two Galleons that take the units to Persepolis will remain in that area to move units?

That means that the majority of troops head for Susa will come from the Arabian Theater?

And the rest of the troops will come from our home continent to take Haithabu, the missing Arab city, Uppsala and Nidaros. Birka will be assaulted by the force near Ecbatana.

Man, this is cutting it close.

I am fine with CP going 5 to 7 turns, but I understand why some might wish him to stop after a point. What point would that be? It seems once this octopus gets launched, there won't be much we can do to tweak it as things will be stretched quite thin.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Your galleon routing plan also sounds reasonable. Ecbatana's three units can still move toward Birka next turn and the Xbow built there can follow behind. Birka has 50% culture so it would be good to get a cat working on it soon."
Will get a cat on it ASAP. BTW, will see if there are any horse archers around Birka before whipping a crossbow rather than a WE.

Plan looks good to me. It would be nice to have more details - I am particularly missing numbers.

I prefer a solution where we try to hang on to Parsagadea. JT's suggestion is fine and sounds more safe than the others. Okay, that's the option I'm going with.

Some numbers:

We are now at T205 and aiming for conquest at T217 (+- a few turns).

The distance from Persepolis to Susa is 7 moves using roads. This means that units used in the capture of Persepolis will not be available to reinforce the Susa attack before T219 even without healing. Will look to move some Mecca units towards Susa.Distance from Persepolis to Gordium is probably 4 but could be 5 so Persepolis units could possibly help here. Medina is even further away (8 moves).

Distance from Parsagadea to Susa is 5 moves so units built until T212 can be used to reinforce attack. You're making the case for HBR by 212. Distance to Medina is 7 moves. Trip from Damascus to Kufah is 5 moves meaning that Damascus and Medina need to be captured or razed on T212 only 7 turns from now. Better hope that there is only one archer in Medina then. If we keep Damascus the galleon trip from Medina to outside Mecca is only 2 moves.

Distance to unknown Arab city? A guess is 4 moves from both Persepolis and Haithabu. Might be able to pull forces from both cities.

Nine units may not be enough to overcome 5-6 defenders on a hilltop city - what are the prospects of getting more units there? It's a 4 move walk from Uppsala to Nidaros so T213 should be our latest time of capture.

All of the above is helpful and further argues for my pausing after a few turns to consider our position.

CP, are you on top of the multiple unit whip we probably need to apply in Parsagadea and maybe also Mecca to prevent starvation? Never done it before, but my understanding is that I can whip multiple units on the same turn that a city comes out of anarchy. Sort of queue them up, I guess, until there's no more starvation. Does the first one whipped come out first? If it's any more complicated than that, than I could certainly use a bit of tutoring.

Should we keep Persepolis instead of razing? It might allow us to whip a late Horse Archer in Parsagadea (connecting horses)There is a road from Pasargadae to the river and on to the ocean. Why won't horses be available to us without keeping PERS?. We will never pay any maintenance for it but it may require some sort of garrison. Keeping Damascus will allow us to whip other units than cats and archers in Mecca and it will shorten the galleon trip to/from Medina. I'm tentatively planning to keep Damascus, though I may delay its capure until near the end of my turn in order to send units towards Susa.

Any thoughts regarding whipping after galleons and what to do with workers?

We're going to need things to go our way to finish at 217. Don't need to know for my first few turns, but by about 210, I'd like to know what the odds are of victory at various turn numbers, if the chart readers among us can decipher that.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I'm a bit fuzzy about after this, so please bear with me. Once we have razed Persepolis, will those units head for Gordium and Tarsus, I intend to be flexible, but tentatively units coming from Athens via a chain(s) of galleons -- possibly swapping a unit for a crossbow near Ecbatana -- are likely to attack Tarsus and then move to Gordium. perhaps a few headed for Susa? And the two Galleons that take the units to Persepolis will remain in that area to move units? I anticipate getting at least one of them involved in chaining from the home continent.

That means that the majority of troops head for Susa will come from the Arabian Theater? and from Pasargadae

And the rest of the troops will come from our home continent to take Haithabu, the missing Arab city, Uppsala and Nidaros. Birka will be assaulted by the force near Ecbatana really, by whatever troops are available, including a possible galleon load from London via Haithabu..

I am fine with CP going 5 to 7 turns, but I understand why some might wish him to stop after a point.

Will do. Plan to play in about 12 hours, unless there is another pause in the countdown.

 

[leif erikson]

Will do. Plan to play in about 12 hours, unless there is another pause in the countdown.

Good luck CP!

We may need a bit of Christmas in these next 10 turns...

May the Force be with you...

 

[ShannonCT]

Never done it before, but my understanding is that I can whip multiple units on the same turn that a city comes out of anarchy. Sort of queue them up, I guess, until there's no more starvation. Does the first one whipped come out first? If it's any more complicated than that, than I could certainly use a bit of tutoring.

The last one you whip will come out first unless you queue swap. It looks like you will need to whip Parsargadae down to Pop6 to avoid starvation. That means you should whip an archer and then a cat on turn 210. The cat will be produced on turn 211 and we can let the archer be produced on turn 212 or we can whip another cat on turn 211 and let it be produced on turn 212, keeping the archer in the queue.

Mecca doesn't need to be whipped immediately, but I think we should anyway.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The last one you whip will come out first unless you queue swap. It looks like you will need to whip Parsargadae down to Pop6 to avoid starvation. That means you should whip an archer and then a cat on turn 210. The cat will be produced on turn 211 and we can let the archer be produced on turn 212 or we can whip another cat on turn 211 and let it be produced on turn 212, keeping the archer in the queue.

Mecca doesn't need to be whipped immediately, but I think we should anyway.

Thanks, that's really helpful.

I am concerned about the whip schedule in our home-continent cities. Haven't been following this. Where is Gator's spread sheet?

 

[rrau]

It's a bit off due to unexpected chops.

Ivoryville and Athens and Timbuktu can usually get a whip for a WE every 2 turns. I can't remember the town's name, but the most south east one is pretty whipped out, but if you keep the workers on the fish, you can whip a WE occasionally.

 

[DJMGator13]

Thanks, that's really helpful.

I am concerned about the whip schedule in our home-continent cities. Haven't been following this. Where is Gator's spread sheet?

Getting ready to post it and then I find that Shannon has added to it. I'll be right back.

 

[DJMGator13]

OK, here is the updated whip schedule. I took leif's port schedule and updated based on the posts indicated by the different colors. I also added some new whips trying to get units from the eastern cities earlier due to the travel distance. Also note that we can start whipping our western cities hard as certain builds complete. I've shown the items that were delayed by the galleon changes and other posts (or different from the last whip schedule) as strikethrus. (Btw, nothing needs to be done with the Gold City build.)

I've also included the Excel file in a zip format.

EDIT:

I forgot to add Ecbatana to the list. Whip cat on turn 209 (2 pop) & 210 (1 pop). Combined with the Xbow whip from turn 207 this gives 3 units in 5 turns.

@Shannon - can we get away with whipping an archer on 207 (1 pop size 5) and then being able to whip 2 more cats and another archer in Ecbatana, instead of the 2 pop xbow? Also, Ironsite will take 4 turns to grow not 3 so the galleon can't be whipped until 209.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Will look to move some Mecca units towards Susa

I'm not sure that is a good solution. It seems to me that the critcal path is not the attack on Susa which can be reinforced in time from Pasargadea with 4-5 units. It looks much more difficult to capture both Medina and Damascus before T212 and be ready to march to Kufah (5 moves) and capture that last at T217. Kufah is a tough nut with at least 2 archers on a hill.

'm tentatively planning to keep Damascus, though I may delay its capure until near the end of my turn in order to send units towards Susa.

Have you forgotten about Kufah? We need around 6 fully healed unit to capture it.

You're making the case for HBR by 212.

At least we should make the final decision on HBR no later than T209 to allow for 3 turns of research.

There is a road from Pasargadae to the river and on to the ocean. Why won't horses be available to us without keeping PERS?.

As far as I remember you must have a coastal city to do trade on the ocean.

That means that the majority of troops head for Susa will come from the Arabian Theater? and from Pasargadae

As I see the plan right now we send a cat, an axe and 2 xbows to Susa from Baghdad and then reinforce with 4-5 units from Parsagadea. There is a good chance that this is enough. As stated above I don't think we can spare any units from Mecca.

Regarding whipping cities down to pop 1. It could be the right course but it's not a given thing so we must consider several things: 1) If the whipped units can't reach port before turn 215 there is most likely no need to whip them. 2) If our economy is bad or if we need money for HBR we may not be able to afford the whipping.

 

[ShannonCT]

@Shannon - can we get away with whipping an archer on 207 (1 pop size 5) and then being able to whip 2 more cats and another archer in Ecbatana, instead of the 2 pop xbow? Also, Ironsite will take 4 turns to grow not 3 so the galleon can't be whipped until 209.

The reason to maybe not whip an archer is that it takes one extra turn and 189 gold to upgrade it to an Xbow, and we might need to upgrade Xbows more urgently elsewhere, like Baghdad.

Ironsite's galleon CAN be whipped in three turns because it will have 33 hammers invested at that point and whipping 2 pop will make up the other 87 hammers needed.

 

[ShannonCT]

Should we keep Persepolis instead of razing? It might allow us to whip a late Horse Archer in Parsagadea (connecting horses). We will never pay any maintenance for it but it may require some sort of garrison. Keeping Damascus will allow us to whip other units than cats and archers in Mecca and it will shorten the galleon trip to/from Medina.

Persepolis wouldn't come out of revolt until around turn 220, too late to be of any use.

As far as I remember you must have a coastal city to do trade on the ocean.

Not true. The river that leads to the ocean will connect Parsargadae to our trade network as soon as there is no enemy territory blocking the path.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Persepolis wouldn't come out of revolt until around turn 220, too late to be of any use.

I am fully aware of this as can be seen from my post. If it came out of revolt we would have to pay maintenance.

Not true. The river that leads to the ocean will connect Parsargadae to our trade network as soon as there is no enemy territory blocking the path.

I didn't know this. I guess what I remember is that building a road to the ocean doesn't connect.

EDIT: Leaving for Finland now, will be back Friday. Good luck CP!

 

[DJMGator13]

The reason to maybe not whip an archer is that it takes one extra turn and 189 gold to upgrade it to an Xbow, and we might need to upgrade Xbows more urgently elsewhere, like Baghdad.

Ironsite's galleon CAN be whipped in three turns because it will have 33 hammers invested at that point and whipping 2 pop will make up the other 87 hammers needed.

I thought it might have been defense/speed issue for the xbow in Ecbatana. Saving the gold for use in the Arabian theather is good.

Ironsite needs to stay mm for hammers not food as I indicated.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Help on whipping, Susa tactics, etc. GREATLY APPRECIATED.

Playing now, but will continue to monitor thread if anyone has another thought. Hope to post an interim save at least by late tonight.

 

[leif erikson]

Again, wishes for good hunting and great fortune...

 

[Cactus Pete]

Re-read the thread since rrau's save before beginning play and found SCT's comment: "Going into revolt because you can't support your units is considered a forbidden tactic."

It looks to me that going into revolt (we have the Pyramids, so probably Police State) towards the end might well allow us either to research HBR and get a few extra units in play or just to upgrade more archers. That could make the difference. My understanding is not the same as SCT's. I believe that it was ruled an exploit when a technique was used to remain in revolt for a large percentage of turns. I think we might even want to get a ruling on this from the moderators.