SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[Sweetacshon]

I think we can fend off an attack if we have just a couple more units. Even just that 1 unit can help. Sometimes the attack is only 1 or 2 units.

In the first wave, anyway.

I think we are too late to do hanging gardens. AI average build times are within 25-30 turns of now.

Is this in your general experience, or with these game conditions? I think I'd be game for a crack at tHG as long as all our happiness issues go according to the (very well constructed) plans as posted above. So what are we losing out on if we go for it? Later granary might cost a pop or 2, but don't we get +1 pop from HG? Temple as we've discussed is not a high priority if our plans work. Monastery is marginal at this stage - although the culture boost from these 2 would be nice. Later NE, although HG GPP might make up for this short term. Extra units/ wb for exploration/lighthouse is lower on the list. If we fail, the cash isn't that useful right now, however it never goes astray. It's missing the HG benefits that offset the later normal buildings that is the worry. When did everyone notice it being built in their tests? (I've looked in my logs, but can't see it, so later today I'll load some saves up and have a look).

Either way, I agree with the spear first. Also we have to remember in the not to distant future to build 2-3 boats for the coastal choke point defence.

 

[MacBalt]

Not saying we shouldn't build a unit next (soothing BLubmuz' nerves is worth it ) as 1-2 more will be cheap happiness once we switch to HR

Okay, okay, I'll agree to the spearman first idea if it will make our captain feel better. Honestly, I can't say I don't have a few "nerves" to sooth about this too.

The Hanging Gardens is very tempting. How painful would delaying the granary @15 turns be should an attempt fail?

We'll want an Aqueduct soon anyway. The HG is probably only going to cost us 8 turns.

I think I'd be game for a crack at tHG as long as all our happiness issues go according to the (very well constructed) plans as posted above.
...
When did everyone notice it being built in their tests? (I've looked in my logs, but can't see it, so later today I'll load some saves up and have a look).

I'm more nervous about trying to build the HG than I am about getting a DOW. I can't remember when it got built in our testgames, but I think we'll have to be pretty quick about this if we decide to go for it. Perhaps we can do two chops instead of just one this time? That would prepare the way for our cottages nicely, at least. Hmm... it also fits nicely with dutchfire's "trade the marble while using the stone" strategy. Okay, I'm getting more intrigued...

So, our new build order would look like this?

1. Spearman
2. Aqueduct
3. Hanging Gardens
4. Granary

Someone should still run a testgame though. I''m away again or I'd do it myself. Please do let us know if you find anything in your old saves, Sweetaschon.

Either way, I agree with the spear first. Also we have to remember in the not to distant future to build 2-3 boats for the coastal choke point defence.

Great point about the galleys. Hate to see any barbs come along an mess with our crabs. Anyone know if galleys can be upgraded to caravels in vanilla? If so, that would be a nice way to speed up our overseas trade explorations after optics too.

 

[culdeus]

We'll want an Aqueduct soon anyway. The HG is probably only going to cost us 8 turns.

I think we can fend off an attack if we have just a couple more units. Even just that 1 unit can help. Sometimes the attack is only 1 or 2 units.

How many test games did you try out. I never had an attack of less than 8 in the first wave.

 

[WastinTime]

How many test games did you try out. I never had an attack of less than 8 in the first wave.

Not many attacks in my test games, but in general, it seems like about half the time, the initial attack can be just a couple units. More waves may be coming, but you can often turn them around by bringing in war allies. I hope we don't have to deal with this, but it would be fun if we survive it.

HG: If we want this, we should stop passing out Math. I bet we can get it if we want it. Will we be able to handle the free population/happiness? I guess we're aren't building it for the pop, just the health and culture and GPpoints.

 

[WastinTime]

So I sat and stared at our map for a while, trying to look at the big picture. Diplo is out. Our best shot to get a win is space or culture. (I love how this game is set up to make anything possible, but nothing probable.) The beauty of the AI only having 2-3 cities is that their wonders/cathedrals will all be concentrated in those cities. However, the Vanilla AI doesn't try very hard for culture. Also, if that was our goal, we should probably be producing only great artists, so we're off track a bit. Still, culture can be done without wars. Tempting to just defend our land and not mobilize an army.

If we're going for space, I think we're at a critical moment. We need trim some of the civs off of our continent. We have to stop getting distracted by things like HG. What does that really do for us? It doesn't help us survive, and barely helps in the space race. If we want any shot at clearing some land, we need to move fast before Longbows. That means Iron, and non-stop swords. We're already a bit late on that. I thought I had convinced ya'll not to do stone until it's needed for Oxford. Turning a 5 hammer tile into a 5 hammer tile is not time well spent. I suppose we could put a road on it while we're there, then mine the Iron, and hope that Liz's workers get off their butts and do the roads for us. She has 2 sitting around doing nothing. Remember, we only need 1 road (on the Iron) to hook up Iron. The road "to the Iron" not necessary.

I hate to be the one to break the peace, but we should just assume war is coming. By working the plan to wipe out a few weak civs, at least we're prepared for a surprise war too.

 

[Sweetacshon]

I couldn't find anything in the logs (for some strange reason) and didn't have good saves, so played 3 tests on a couple of the test games. Here's where the HG was built:
76 - 975BC
87 - 700BC
76 - 975BC
I stopped at 1 turn to completion and prechopped forest. I could have got the HG with chopping on the 76 turns games, but I had prechopped with the worker, which we haven't prepared for this game. The 87 I obviously wouldn't have needed to chop for. In any case, we're at turn 71, so it could be tight. Also, what WT says makes sense about staying focused... it's easy to wander off on another path.

I did notice that most wonders, etc were on our continent, which is good for our future partner (although MM is on our landmass in the tests).

 

[BLubmuz]

Not clear to me what is our plan.
This is a good point in the game for draw a strategy, so i think we must stop play and well discuss it.
The only thing we seem to agree is to build one more unit.
Not clear what WT says in his 525:
what do you propose? start build military like mad, wipe Wash (and gain bad relations with the Hindu block) or else?

Or the peaceful path to HG, useful, nice but what place they have in our strategy to try to win? GE points, i say less problems for health in a far future.

Well the discussion is open, but we need some plan, alternative plans.
And to vote for one of them, and find some variant in case.

WT can you explain better your 525 thoughts?

 

[dutchfire]

Hate to see any barbs come along an mess with our crabs. Anyone know if galleys can be upgraded to caravels in vanilla?

I don't believe they do. And caravels upgrade to submarines

 

[culdeus]

Thought about this some. I'm in for culture win. Not worried about having the GL. We need the research bonus.

I'm against the HG. I saw a 1080B HG in one game when I was headed for it. It's just a bandaid. There are tons of other wonders to spam. Lets get on it.

 

[dutchfire]

Culture win???????

No offence, but of all the possibilities, that sounds hardest! (well, conquest is hard too)

 

[culdeus]

I've never attempted a OCC Launch. Not having multiple production sites would take forever wouldn't it? The problem with this team in the past has been sort of a wayward haphazard approach from 2000BC to 1AD. There's a clear fork in the road coming up here once CS is done. Best to be prepared for it.

ETA: Just in messing with the test games I see a later Diety Space Launch than normal. The AI won't go for a culture win (and probably can't) so we don't have to worry about that. A backdoor diplomatic loss is possible and this could happen very early (like ~1450)

My crystal ball says that this game is over at 1750 no matter what. Someone on the other continent will launch by then and there's nothing we can or should do about it. The absolute conceivable latest end date would be 1800.

Cultural victories at higher levels are much easier for me as the tech parity is not so important and in the late game you just need to hang on and count down the turns to victory.

 

[dutchfire]

Not having multiple production sites would take forever wouldn't it?

PA with Deity AI

For culture, won't we need to get our PA to 2x 50000 as well?

 

[WastinTime]

Which VC ?:

Conquest feels like you could fall behind in tech, or the AI would fill in the area you conquered, then there's the other continent. This seems the most likely to fail. Diplo is also most likely a lost cause. I don't want to get stuck in a game that is un-winnable. The top two choices will lead to a victory, even if it's late...2000AD+

Culture is easy. We pick a PA partner. We give ONLY that one electricity and radio so they get RockNroll, broadway, E tower, hollywood. Eventually, if no one launches a spaceship first, they'll get 2 legendary cities and we have the other one. It's frustrating to wait around for the AI to get their culture up. You can't make them run Free Speech. It really helps to have 10 Great Artists ready after the PA is signed. The ideal way to win is also to get the Parthenon and Sistine Chapel. The ways to lose this game are: 1)We get conquered, 2) PA partner gets conquered, 3) space launch by another.

Space also will happen eventually. I don't think we can lose this to any other condition (like some AI getting culture. That never happens. Or some AI getting a diplo win.) So we only lose if we get conquered. For this reason, and because we're off track for culture, I vote we go for Space. We do have multiple production sites, the AI cities. They build parts WAY faster than we can. In my HOF games, I never build even 1 part, not even a casing. Way back in my early days of CIV4, my first obsession was OCC-Diety-Space. This was before I knew what a PA was. I just built every part myself and launched around 1950AD. So we CAN build the parts if we have to, but it's faster to get them to do it.

I think either way we vote on, my suggested plan would be to crank out the military and get some good use out of it before longbows. Or, at least we'd have the military so we can survive this game even if we don't attack. Now that currency is around, we can get cash to support our military without losing any research. Wash is not necessarily the first target, although he is tempting with no Hills/cities and no metal.
All of the other suggested build items (granary, LH, HG, temple) all have very little effect in the big picture. Does it really matter if we are size 7 or 8? I vote for survival and the *option* of going to war...i.e. build military. Pretty soon we're going to be distracted with theater, Globe, University, Oxford. So military now seems good.

 

[Merum]

Hey guys, I'm having some computer problems and am going to have to wait for a HDD before I can re-install civ (and everything else). I probably won't be able to play until into the weekend. If somebody wants to skip around me go ahead. I probably won't be posting much either as my access to other computers will be limited.

 

[dutchfire]

Hey guys, I'm having some computer problems and am going to have to wait for a HDD before I can re-install civ (and everything else). I probably won't be able to play until into the weekend. If somebody wants to skip around me go ahead. I probably won't be posting much either as my access to other computers will be limited.

Good luck with that!

By the way, you're glad you're not in China now, aren't you?

 

[culdeus]

I've got to admit I didn't know the AI would build space parts for you. That's interesting. Aight, lets go that route. But with whom then?

 

[culdeus]

Hey guys, I'm having some computer problems and am going to have to wait for a HDD before I can re-install civ (and everything else). I probably won't be able to play until into the weekend. If somebody wants to skip around me go ahead. I probably won't be posting much either as my access to other computers will be limited.

I'll take the save then tonight. Lets get a plan together for it.

eta: Given our plans my vote now is to

Finish Spear
Build Granary in anticipation of rapid growth shortly

Road sheep for trade then road what next? Iron? The AI is very apt to demand iron so bvwih. I don't even know the location of the worker right now so projecting total moves available is tough.

Gift a tech to Washington (PH?) Yes/No Looks like most say Yes at this point

Get gold from trade for sheep if possible. Do we trade iron for anything? Cause I think it will get demanded by someone eventually (Washington).

Anything else? I'll go for 10 turns or till the granary is built whichever is shorter.

 

[dutchfire]

I don't even know the location of the worker right now so projecting total moves available is tough.

On the stone I believe. Roading the stone is important IMO, as stone can easily be traded.

Getting iron mined & roaded is next (don't road towards the iron though)

 

[BLubmuz]

Finally!
A plan!
I agree on SR, with a PA, of course.
And about military, too
So, let's build that spear, then some nice axe, or some sword if we already have Iron hooked.
In any case, if anyone wish our nice city, we'll be a tough bit to bite.
And if in the path we can squeeze a Diplo, better.
And if someone already hates Wash, he can be our possible PA partner.

No, culture is not easy in vanilla, maybe in BtS, surely not in vanilla or warlords, and too many risks to be conquered or that other launch.
We can build the necessary wonders, in case (Hoover Dam) surely not the SE, we're too North.

Culdeus, no demands for single resources!!!
The only resource they can demand are crabs, we have 2.
And it's not that big, we can just cancel the deal after 10 turns.

Yes, give PH to Wash so he'll build some temple instead of military .

 

[WastinTime]

Get gold immediately for marble. Let's not be the only team without gold. We won't need marble for at least 10 turns, then we can re-assess the trade.

Agree w/dutchfire. Road on stone, then mine on iron. If you know the trick, you can put 1 free turn into a road on the sheep on the way to iron.