SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[MacBalt]

Here is the *DRAFT* plan. I'll play tomorrow, unless something comes up in discussion that requires more time.

*DRAFT* PLAN for Turns 191-201:

1. Turns to Play: Finish 191, play 192-201, stop before ending turn 201.
2. Research Path: Refigeration or Artillery, depending on trades; then start Genetics (hopefully).
3. Build Order: Finish Laboratory, then build beakers. (Supermarket when we get Refrigeration. If we get Communism, should we build Scotland Yard/spy?)
4. City Priority = Growth & Health: Population = 18
   • Tiles to Work: 2xCrab, Sheep, Deer, Fur, Marble/windmill, 6xGrass Towns, Plains Town, 3xCoast, 1xScientists, Stone Quarry (this is our current configuration); growth in 18.
   • After Laboratory, shift from stone to new plains/hill windmill tile (1NE of Beijing).
5. Inherited Turn: Finish Windmill on forest hill 1NE of Beijing. Make trades with Cyrus & others (see #8). Get Defense Pact with Asoka.
6. Worker: After finishing Windmill, should we pre-build Windmills on the two remaining plains/hill/forest tiles, or just Lumbermill them (Advice, please)? Then roadspam??? (for BLub? )
7. Military: No changes to current configuration. Should we upgrade our catapults to cannons when we get Steel or wait for Artillery?
8. Technology Trading:
   • Trade Cyrus Electricity for his Steam Power + 30 gold + World Map.
   • Try to trade Asoka Steam Power for his Biology.
   • Try to trade Liz Steam Power for her Steel. If that fails, try to give her Radio for her Steel. If neither of those works, then try to trade Cathy Steam Power for her Steel. Do not trade Radio to Cathy.
   • Whether Liz takes the deal for Steel or not, I will trade or gift Radio to her before my turnset is over, in order to give her the opportunity to research Mass Media and take the "Let Liz build the UN" gambit. (Does anyone have advice on when to do this? Should it be as soon as possible, or wait a few turns? I'm leaning toward waiting about 5-7 turns.)
   • No trades for Horseback Riding or Theology.
   • No trades or gifts to Alex or Louis, who appear to be disliked by our friends.
   • Technology gifts? -- Will gift or trade away Rifling, Biology, Steel, and (if we get it) Artillery within one to three turns of getting them. Will try to pick up Communism & other techs on path to things like Combustion, Plastics, & etc. Doesn't look like there is any reason to get Democracy, is there? (Advice, please?) For that matter, since Liz already has Communism do we really need to get that one either?
9. Resource Trading: No new resource trades. Will not windmill over the stone as we are currently selling it to Asoka.
10. Civics Changes: None this turnset.
11. Political Demands:
    • Do not give in to any demand for Radio (unless it comes from Liz).
    • Do not give in to any demands that would require anarchy (religion or civics change).
    • Give in to all other demands for resources or techs.
    • Do not join any wars.
    • Do not give in to demands to cancel any deals (unless the request comes from Liz, Asoka, or Cyrus and it appears to make sense for us).
12. Final Play Notes: Monitor Liz, Asoka, & Cyrus for new DPs & note the turn anything new appears. If any significant new threat develops (from George, for example), I'll plan to stop and consult the team about our options.

 

[Merum]

I don't see the point in a DP with Asoka... it just exposes us to more risk in the event that somebody declares on him and drags us into a war, thus breaking our DP with Liz and Cyrus. Additionally, DPing now with Asoka will put him ~20 turns behind any of our other friends in terms of PA possibilities, and waiting that long seems dumb.

If we're going for a space win, why are we not researching to rocketry so we can gift it to our PA partner? Gifting rocketry would kick-start them on building Apollo. Not gifting it to them means we have to wait and hope for them to research it on their own, which they'll get around to in their own time.

EDIT: ehh... got up on the wrong side of the bed today, I guess.

 

[MacBalt]

I don't see the point in a DP with Asoka... it just exposes us to more risk in the event that somebody declares on him and drags us into a war, thus breaking our DP with Liz and Cyrus. Additionally, DPing now with Asoka will put him ~20 turns behind any of our other friends in terms of PA possibilities, and waiting that long seems dumb.

I'm open to not doing the DP with Asoka. I don't think anyone is likely to DOW him though, and his having a DP will make it even less likely. I'm also wondering if Asoka already having a DP will make it take longer or be less likely for another AI to try to DP/PA with him? I usually tend to favor keeping our options open too, just in case something goes wrong with Liz or Cyrus.

If we're going for a space win, why are we not researching to rocketry so we can gift it to our PA partner? Gifting rocketry would kick-start them on building Apollo. Not gifting it to them means we have to wait and hope for them to research it on their own, which they'll get around to in their own time.

I thought the health from the Refigeration(Grocer)-Genetics path was a higher priority, but if we can't get Biology then I was going to go for Artillery, which is on the path to Rocketry. If we think Rocketry is more important then I'm happy to put that path first. (I still tend to favor the health route, but it wouldn't take much convincing to change my mind.)

EDIT: ehh... got up on the wrong side of the bed today, I guess.

Which side of the world are you on today?
All that traveling has got to take its toll. Don't worry about it, Merum. Glad to have your advice, even when/especially when it's "sharp."

 

[WastinTime]

I'm pretty sure we waited too long on steel, so Artill should be available free for trade. Then we could start rocketry. So, try hard to get Biology and start Refrigeration (we waste less turns of research). If you trade for steel/artill, that's 2 turns wasted. We can switch to Rocketry in the middle of Refrig...as soon as we can wheel and deal for artill. What do you plan to research while making trades? If I get a chance, I'll come up with some suggestions.

Pass on the DP.

Right, we don't really need communism at all.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Pass on the DP.

Right, we don't really need communism at all.

Hmm, I'm still unsure. If Asoka still doesn't have an AI DP, then we'd still be in the front running with him for a PA, and sure it might be 20 turns (has it been that long?) later than with Liz, say, but we've already discussed how a later PA is not a problem techwise, and in fact saves beakers, so I don't see that as an issue.

Stay true on the tech beeline, and we should have no problems with trading or PA freebies for the rest. However, I do lean toward the health techs asap. What else...? I'd prolly lumbermill those hills, but that's just health instinct. I'm unsure of whether fans or lumbermill health to possibly support more scientists yields faster research, or even makes a difference at this stage. Radio to Liz: keep it in your pocket until the proposed trades are done. If it's not useful, gift it. The plan sounds fine, and thanks for the s/s info.

 

[WastinTime]

Ok, you changed my mind. A DP with Asoka is probably a nice safety.

 

[MacBalt]

What do you plan to research while making trades? If I get a chance, I'll come up with some suggestions.

Hmmm... if we can't flip Steam Power to Asoka on the first turn then there isn't much to choose from. We could put a turn into Assembly Line or Railroad or Artillery, if that might help make one of them trade more easily. I guess I'd pick Assembly Line, because that one looks like it might be the most difficult one to trade for, but I'm really not even sure if one turn of research will help at this stage of the game. Maybe one turn into Artillery would be better for the same reason? (see Edit #3) Your suggestions will be appreciated.

I'd prolly lumbermill those hills, but that's just health instinct. I'm unsure of whether fans or lumbermill health to possibly support more scientists yields faster research, or even makes a difference at this stage. Radio to Liz: keep it in your pocket until the proposed trades are done. If it's not useful, gift it.

Okay, lumbermills on the hills and save Radio to make sure we get what we need in trade. Agreed.

EDIT #1: And we'll go ahead with the DP with Asoka, unless there is more discussion that follows...

EDIT #2: What about researching fission? I don't think we "need" it technically, but it leads directly to ecology.

EDIT #3: Okay, with Ecology we can build a recycling center and get no from buildings, so now I think we should research Fission while we wait for our trades.

 

[WastinTime]

Yes, Aboslutely Fission! I was going to check the save to see if Fission is available, but now I don't have to. Fission is a great tech to get and then trade for other tech. It's something they don't tend to research. Don't worry if you don't finish Fission, just start it and switch to Rocketry if you get the prereqs. It's probably not urgent to switch to Refrig, just finish Fission. I feel good that we are not wasting research turns. Good find.

Ecology is something we will likely research, but it's usually dead last. Probably after the PA. It's a good space part to build last because it is small and faster with copper.

 

[culdeus]

I think it's highly possible CRC is done at 50AD. No save activity in many days and that flurry of posts about a week back.

and by done I assume dead.

 

[dutchfire]

and by done I assume dead.

I've learned not to assume when dealing with Russians


*DRAFT* PLAN for Turns 191-201:
Turns to Play: Finish 191, play 192-201, stop before ending turn 201.
Research Path: Fission
Build Order: Finish Laboratory, then build beakers. (Supermarket when we get Refrigeration. If we get Communism, should we build Scotland Yard/spy?)
City Priority = Growth & Health: Population = 18
Tiles to Work: 2xCrab, Sheep, Deer, Fur, Marble/windmill, 6xGrass Towns, Plains Town, 3xCoast, 1xScientists, Stone Quarry (this is our current configuration); growth in 18.
After Laboratory, shift from stone to new plains/hill windmill tile (1NE of Beijing).
Inherited Turn: Finish Windmill on forest hill 1NE of Beijing. Make trades with Cyrus & others (see #8). Get Defense Pact with Asoka.
Worker: After finishing Windmill, should we pre-build Windmills on the two remaining plains/hill/forest tiles, or just Lumbermill them (Advice, please)? Then roadspam??? (for BLub? ) I don't think we'll want to windmill over those forests, we might want to pre-chop them, I suppose, or perhaps even pre-mine. You could also hook up oil, couldn't you?
Military: No changes to current configuration. Should we upgrade our catapults to cannons when we get Steel or wait for Artillery? I'd say wait for artillery
Technology Trading:
Trade Cyrus Electricity for his Steam Power + 30 gold + World Map.
Try to trade Asoka Steam Power for his Biology.
Try to trade Liz Steam Power for her Steel. If that fails, try to give her Radio for her Steel. If neither of those works, then try to trade Cathy Steam Power for her Steel. Do not trade Radio to Cathy.
Whether Liz takes the deal for Steel or not, I will trade or gift Radio to her before my turnset is over, in order to give her the opportunity to research Mass Media and take the "Let Liz build the UN" gambit. (Does anyone have advice on when to do this? Should it be as soon as possible, or wait a few turns? I'm leaning toward waiting about 5-7 turns.)
No trades for Horseback Riding or Theology.
No trades or gifts to Alex or Louis, who appear to be disliked by our friends.
Technology gifts? -- Will gift or trade away Rifling, Biology, Steel, and (if we get it) Artillery within one to three turns of getting them. Will try to pick up Communism & other techs on path to things like Combustion, Plastics, & etc. Doesn't look like there is any reason to get Democracy, is there? (Advice, please?) For that matter, since Liz already has Communism do we really need to get that one either? No Communism, no democracy
Resource Trading: No new resource trades. Will not windmill over the stone as we are currently selling it to Asoka.
Civics Changes: None this turnset.
Political Demands:
Do not give in to any demand for Radio (unless it comes from Liz).
Do not give in to any demands that would require anarchy (religion or civics change).
Give in to all other demands for resources or techs.
Do not join any wars.
Do not give in to demands to cancel any deals (unless the request comes from Liz, Asoka, or Cyrus and it appears to make sense for us).
Final Play Notes: Monitor Liz, Asoka, & Cyrus for new DPs & note the turn anything new appears. If any significant new threat develops (from George, for example), I'll plan to stop and consult the team about our options.

 

[greatbeyond]

Merum, Just be glad your bed only has one wrong side, sometimes mine has four.

Balthalion, Your plan looks good and i agree with the subsequent commentary. I agree that we should have a DP with Asoka in our back pocket for use in an emergency. Did anyone else notice how quickly Tokugawa went to his death?

I am also of the opinion that we don't want to ignore the UN. I do not believe we should let anyone else build it, especially when we wouldn't qualify as a candidate, and wouldn't have the votes to deny one of our friends the win. Does having a PA allow us a UN win if our partner wins the vote?

 

[MacBalt]

Research Path: Fission
...
Worker: After finishing Windmill, should we pre-build Windmills on the two remaining plains/hill/forest tiles, or just Lumbermill them (Advice, please)? Then roadspam??? (for BLub? ) I don't think we'll want to windmill over those forests, we might want to pre-chop them, I suppose, or perhaps even pre-mine. You could also hook up oil, couldn't you?
Military: No changes to current configuration. Should we upgrade our catapults to cannons when we get Steel or wait for Artillery? I'd say wait for artillery
...

Thanks Dutch. We'll go with Fission and wait for Artillery to upgrade the catapults. Now I'm leaning toward putting lumbermills on the forest hills, unless more agree that pre-chopping would be better. Can't hook up oil without combustion (but I suppose we could road over the oil so we're ready).

 

[MacBalt]

I am also of the opinion that we don't want to ignore the UN. I do not believe we should let anyone else build it, especially when we wouldn't qualify as a candidate, and wouldn't have the votes to deny one of our friends the win. Does having a PA allow us a UN win if our partner wins the vote?

If our PA partner wins by UN then we win too, but I think that is unlikely with the way diplomacy seems to work after the PAs start rolling in.

How does everyone else feel about the UN "gambit" I've suggested (based on WastinTime's ideas)? (We give Radio to Liz after our trading is done and then hope she researches MM and builds it for us.) With some luck we could get her to build both the UN and Apollo Program at about the same time. Personally, I don't think the UN is important enough to research ourselves given how unlikely I think any kind of diplomatic victory would be with this kind of set up. I don't like ignoring it totally though either, so I figured that this plan would keep the idea in play and our options open for another turnset or two...

 

[culdeus]

Hatch seems to be the one always building the UN in my games and she's in a world of hurt. Cathy sometimes likes to build it too and would be and is IMO our chief rival now for everything.

 

[dutchfire]

Now I'm leaning toward putting lumbermills on the forest hills,

d'oh, of course, lumbermills are as good as mines for production. Still, this has little priority imo, I'd prefer to get oil.

 

[MacBalt]

Hatch seems to be the one always building the UN in my games and she's in a world of hurt. Cathy sometimes likes to build it too and would be and is IMO our chief rival now for everything.

What do you think culdeus? I'm still leaning toward getting Radio to Liz within 3-5 turns and hoping for the best. Even if Cathy does somehow manage to beat Liz to the UN, I don't think she could pull off a diplomatic win. If you or others don't want to take the risk though then I think now is the time to say so.

 

[MacBalt]

I'll play in about four hours, unless something comes up in discussion that requires more time.

Revised Plan for Turns 191-201:

1. Turns to Play: Finish 191, play 192-201, stop before ending turn 201.
2. Research Path: Fission until Rocketry becomes available, then switch immediately.
3. Build Order: Finish Laboratory, then build beakers. (Supermarket when we get Refrigeration.)
4. City Priority = Growth & Health: Population = 18
   • Tiles to Work: 2xCrab, Sheep, Deer, Fur, Marble/windmill, 6xGrass Towns, Plains Town, 3xCoast, 1xScientists, Stone Quarry (this is our current configuration); growth in 18.
   • After Laboratory, shift from stone to new plains/hill windmill tile (1NE of Beijing).
5. Inherited Turn: Finish Windmill on forest hill 1NE of Beijing. Make trades with Cyrus & others (see #8). Get Defense Pact with Asoka.
6. Worker: After finishing Windmill, build lumber mills on the two remaining plains/hill/forest tiles. Then road the oil, followed by roadspam (for BLub ).
7. Military: No changes to current configuration for now. Upgrade catapults to artillery when we get the tech.
8. Technology Trading:
   • Trade Cyrus Electricity for his Steam Power + 30 gold + World Map.
   • Try to trade Asoka Steam Power for his Biology.
   • Try to trade Liz Steam Power for her Steel. If that fails, try to give her Radio for her Steel. If neither of those works, then try to trade Cathy Steam Power for her Steel. Do not trade Radio to Cathy.
   • Whether Liz takes the deal for Steel or not, I will trade or gift Radio to her before my turnset is over, in order to give her the opportunity to research Mass Media and take the "Let Liz build the UN" gambit.
   • No trades for Horseback Riding or Theology.
   • No trades or gifts to Alex or Louis, who appear to be disliked by our friends.
   • Technology gifts? -- Will gift or trade away Rifling, Biology, Steel, and (if we get it) Artillery within one to three turns of getting them. Doesn't look like there is any reason to get Democracy or Communism right now, so...
   • No trades for Democracy or Communism this turnset.
9. Resource Trading: No new resource trades. Will not windmill over the stone as we are currently selling it to Asoka.
10. Civics Changes: None this turnset.
11. Political Demands:
    • Do not give in to any demand for Radio (unless it comes from Liz).
    • Do not give in to any demands that would require anarchy (religion or civics change).
    • Give in to all other demands for resources or techs.
    • Do not join any wars.
    • Do not give in to demands to cancel any deals (unless the request comes from Liz, Asoka, or Cyrus and it appears to make sense for us).
12. Final Play Notes: Monitor Liz, Asoka, & Cyrus for new DPs & note the turn anything new appears. If any significant new threat develops (from George, for example), I'll plan to stop and consult the team about our options.

 

[BLubmuz]

Sorry guys, busy preparing for vacations.
Just the time to say

see you after July 9th

 

[greatbeyond]

Go Balthalion, Go. Your plan for the UN sounds good to me.

Blubmuz, have a nice holiday, we will see you here when you get back. I would love to have a week in Italy. The best I can do here in NY, is a week in someplace with an Italian inspired name!

 

[culdeus]

What do you think culdeus? I'm still leaning toward getting Radio to Liz within 3-5 turns and hoping for the best. Even if Cathy does somehow manage to beat Liz to the UN, I don't think she could pull off a diplomatic win. If you or others don't want to take the risk though then I think now is the time to say so.

It seems to me that if the AI builds the UN what typically happens is it is so late everyone is in free religion and can't come to a consensus. The only way I've been able to get a "domination-lite" non rushed UN is through picking the dominant religion and laying waste to the heathens before they all convert. That or really utilizing clever diplomacy. Neither is an option here.

I just don't see cathy pulling this off looking back at the save again. She has made a few mistakes here and there if she was really going to try it. I'd almost be content to let anyone do it if only for the distraction it tends to give the AI that builds it.

What is the delay for the supermarket that this might give? That's the crucial question.