SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[Jabah]

To add some more from Soooo comments.

Our city will not be growing extremly fast (we have 2 seafood and that all for extra food, except if we farm some grass-forrest which is quite unlikely early), especially when trying to have production (lots of hammer heavy with no food). We could be able to trade some clam for a happy lux early. so Monarchy is nice but usually could wait to be (easily) trade IMHO if we go (Alphabet, Litterature, Philo (bulb or not)...Liberalism).

Edit - we could always have a deer or something in one of the BFC (or further) forrest out of view. That would change a lot of thing.

IN FACT
---> What do you all think about playing 1t immediately/very soon
(move warrior - post - discuss) then (settle very likely on the spot - post)
And then we know exactly what is around and Edit and Play our various test games with a seriously more accurate land. (we still will have no idea about metal/horse, so maybe have tests with/without to see the difference).


(sorry for the highly colored, I will edit later, but I want to have that option discussed )
Jabah

Edited - I am a bit early, Alan's post had make me thing the save where already there, while they would be in only tomorrow, but never mind, we should discuss what to do T0 soon to see if we could make more accurate test games (lands + neighbours)

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I think it's pretty obvious we're going to settle in place, so we should do so, move the warrior and stop. We can then edit the most similar looking start to match what we see and can play some more test games over the weekend.

 

[Jabah]

We probably should 'press end of turn' to let all AIs move, settle, meet us and have an acurate position of the (next door) AIs capitals and troops (or shouldn't we?)

 

[ruff_hi]

Since I am the expert of making 1 move turns ... can I volunteer as the opening turner?

Looking at the original picture that was posted, I wouldn't be surprised if our seafood resources are actually iced in - ie protected.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

We probably should 'press end of turn' to let all AIs move, settle, meet us and have an acurate position of the (next door) AIs capitals and troops (or shouldn't we?)

We will need to agree on tech and build before hitting enter.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Looking at the original picture that was posted, I wouldn't be surprised if our seafood resources are actually iced in - ie protected.

I did this in one of my tests and it was a bit of pain. In fact, I'd say we're unlikely to be iced in as that would prevent us getting any boats out.

 

[ruff_hi]

We will need to agree on tech and build before hitting enter.

Aren't these pretty much a forced selection of 'Fishing' and 'Barracks'?

 

[Jabah]

Aren't these pretty much a forced selection of 'Fishing' and 'Barracks'?

No sure, I vote for warrior
(but since in my test I need 1t into a barrack before learning 'fishing', that won't be destroying my opening)

More seriously, we also need to agree on which tile to work (forest grass, forest plain, forrest plain-hill)...

We will need very likely to discuss a bit more before pressing enter

 

[chmoosi]

I've started citizenry with forest-grass tile then turned into a hill tile when building a work boat. After WB is finished and the sea tile is ready to be harvested I've moved there, then after city grows put the citizen on a hill tile to finish barracs and 2 archers promptly.

 

[Compromise]

Since I am the expert of making 1 move turns ... can I volunteer as the opening turner?

Your wish is granted. I agree with Swiss: I don't think there's any chance we're going to move the capital, regardless of what the warrior will find, so I'd settle the settler first, then move the warrior.

We should agree on a first tech and build though. I lean toward Fishing and a barracks. I do like working a grass forest until fishing, then a 3H square to build the workboat.

Does anyone other than Jabah favor the first build being a warrior rather than starting a barracks?

 

[ruff_hi]

Since I am the expert of making 1 move turns ... can I volunteer as the opening turner?

Your wish is granted.

Schedule
Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of April 24.

woo hoo! Guess I'll stay up late tonight. Expect a full on first turn report tomorrow morning.

 

[sooooo]

I agree with the plan of barracks, fishing and grass forest.

 

[Compromise]

In thinking about it, the only real questions I'd have for the first turnset are:

1) should the initial warrior return to the capital to garrison (vs. exploring as far as possible before the AI borders trap him)?
2) should the initial warrior pop all huts--likely number is zero--he finds?

I tend to think "Yes" to both.

I don't think the full first turnset should extend beyond the completion of the workboat. And in a game like this, I'd much prefer leaning toward shorter turnsets to gather team input than making snap decisions while at the helm.

 

[Kodii]

Barracks, Fishing, Grassland Forest sounds very good to me

1) should the initial warrior return to the capital to garrison (vs. exploring as far as possible before the AI borders trap him)?
2) should the initial warrior pop all huts--likely number is zero--he finds?

I guess it really depends on how close these AIs are. For example, in test game #5, I think I only moved my warrior about 2 tiles outside the capital before Gandhi settled his second city and completely boxed me in.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I'm for fishing/barracks/grass forest, and send the warrior exploring. Sometimes he'll go far, and sometimes he'll get boxed in.

 

[Jabah]

I am still doing some test (on test4).

I am for moving warrior, settling (high likely on the spot) and NOT pressing enter before saving, so we can do more tests with the correct surrounding (especially if there is another 'special' tile around).

I don't mind having the warrior exploring a bit if he can come back or we build some remplacement but I think exploring and meeting AIs could wait u til OB.

No question about Fishing.

Still thinking for production.

But really not sure about the working tile.

More later on another post.

Jabah

 

[chmoosi]

The saves are up.. Who's going to pick the first one and in what order do we proceed after that?

 

[Jabah]

Here are some ideas for the initial working tile.

Almost from the beginning and for a little while time (until worker start improving land tiles), we will have the choice for working tiles mainly between:
- crab with WB : 4foods, 3 bulbs [high food]
- unimproved stone/marble/plain-forested hill : 3 hammers [high prod]

and very marginaly
- unimproved fur : 1food, 2hammers, 1bulb
- lots of tiles with 2 food/1hammer or 1 food/2hammer

So we should consider the 'correct' food to hammer ratio to be 4 <-> 3 (plus 3 extra bulb).
Therefore, I thing we should NOT work under almost any circonstance (*) any other kind of tile as they are below the 'correct' conversion rate.

For me the opening (regarless of what we are building) is in term of working tiles :
- 6t (until fishing) of stone (or equivalent) for 30h/0f
- 6t (until WB done) of stone for 30h/0f
- 1t of forest grass for +2food (need to get growth 1t earlier) (*) that is my exception to the above rule
- 5t of net-crab for +20food -> size 4
[after , 2citizens should work a mix of crab/hill depending on building]


So after turn 18, we reach size2, have built a WB (crab netted) and put 43 hammers into something else (30early, and possibly 3+10 into another WB), and have 9x18+5x3 = 177 bulbs.


Of course, I might have missed something, so I would like to see some other options.

Jabah

PS I will try to make an XLS file (base on a Murky's SGOTM6 file if I could find it) to allow easier 'simulation'

edit : file attached, it is very basic (ie no auto-calculation of changing size, of production done... also building settler and worker need to change the formula for food/hammer stored). I might make it batter later (or anyone could).
For information, we need to add 1 research per turn (not coming from commerce)

The fastest way to size4 (with both crabs netted) seems to take 30t while producing 118hammers (2WB + 58 leftover almost a barrack) and 342 commerce (+30 research from somewhere).

 

[chmoosi]

I think we need to build 2 archers before starting another workboat. At least in game 5 huana capac DoWed me the turn before I got my first archer built (and I had previously finished WB and barracks). This wasn't so bad as my archer held up quite easily and gained some exp and I was able to end the war quite soon.. but the archers are needed early on.

On the working tiles question... working the fur tile is always +1 commerce so I think it should be used if there's no urgent need for that +1 prod (like while building a WB or some wonder).

 

[Jabah]

Some quite instructive tests on Map4

Try #1
(More or less same as usual)
Research :
Sailing, BW, hunt, arch, myst, masonry, wheel, pottery, animal, writing

Production :
Warrior x2 (max prod), WB x2 (max prod, then max grow to S2, then max prod), barrack (start), worker (at size4), barrack (finish), archer, Pyramids (start)

Get Worker out just 1t before masonry.
Start Pyramids when Stone connected (2240)
Miss the Mids by 3t (1720), get a huge 376g return.

Continue building Walls

CAPAC declares in 1640 (while having inside city : 2warriors/1archer/barrack --> not enough to prevent)
Lose immediately despite whipping archer and having wall finished just the turn he had declared.

Wonders
Oracle 2600
Stonehenge 2600
Mids 1760 (3t too soon)
GLight 1720


Try #2
Idea worker earlier to get stone/marble (for production and/or wonder bonus)

Research :
Sailing, BW, mysticism, masonry, wheel, hunt, arch, animal, pottery, writing, poly, alpha

Production
Warriorx2, WBx2, worker (at size2), barracks (max growth to S4), archerx2, mids, wall, lib, archer

Start Mids after 2 archers, so not asap.
Worker managed 1 chop into it (after connecting both marcle/stone, but not improving fur)
---> GET Pyramids in 1640BC (ok would have been too late on some other tests)

Then
1st to Alpha (trade for - Math+Sail- Priest+Iron - Mono+Medi)
1st to Litterature 775
GET Glibr in 650BC <--- 2 chops
1st GPP - GS -> Academy in 625
research CoL (trade Currency, Monarchy, Calendar+Horse, lots of gold)
1st CService probably (but stop before)

Wonders
Stonehenge 2680
Oracle 2040
Parthenon 1720
GET Mids in 1640BC <-- with 1 chop.
1080 GLight
800 Hgard
GET Glibr in 650BC <--- 2 chops


Conclusion
1. 2archers+2warriors+barrack was enough to prevent Capac to declare while 1archer+2warriors+barrack was not.

2. Pyramids could be done with luck (and I still thing the refound is very nice and needed if missed)

3. I have changed my mind and want to try now worker very soon. In fact if the decaying time is less than 15t, I would change the first 6t (2 warriors) into starting worker then do the 2WB while growing to S2 in 15t, then finish worker, and after barrack, archerx3 (still need to check about no declaration before the first archer, as I will have 1 warrior only).

Jabah