SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[Jabah]

The saves are up.. Who's going to pick the first one and in what order do we proceed after that?

Except for "playing" turn0 quite soon (probably). I don't think (or I think we should not) we are going to play the real game for a while until the 'improved' test games have no secret for us

 

[sooooo]

I agree, the second workboat can be delayed for a while. For me, intuitively, it's barracks until fishing, switch to work boat at max production, then back to barracks while working crabs until size 2. At size 2 we work crabs and switch to a production tile, calculated to finish the barracks at the same turn as we finish researching archery. Then later on we can consider when it's safe to switch from archers to the second work boat.

We should test which tile to work right at the start while building barracks. The commerce tile (fur) could, strangely, work out better because it will allow us to start the work boat earlier. The sooner we build the work boat, the sooner we can work the high commerce crabs and hence the sooner we research archery.

 

[Jabah]

I think we need to build 2 archers before starting another workboat. At least in game 5 huana capac DoWed me the turn before I got my first archer built ....

I haven't try game5 yet, so maybe there is something specific there.

But surprisingly, I have not be declared on that early with my 2 warriors first start (that make it either 2 or 3 defending depending if 1 get trapped or not while exploring).

In that case, I would advocate going for 2 fast warriors while researching Fishing...

Jabah

 

[Jabah]

I agree, the second workboat can be delayed for a while. For me, intuitively, it's barracks until fishing, switch to work boat at max production, then back to barracks while working crabs until size 2. At size 2 we work crabs and switch to a production tile, calculated to finish the barracks at the same turn as we finish researching archery. Then later on we can consider when it's safe to switch from archers to the second work boat.

We should test which tile to work right at the start while building barracks. The commerce tile (fur) could, strangely, work out better because it will allow us to start the work boat earlier. The sooner we build the work boat, the sooner we can work the high commerce crabs and hence the sooner we research archery.

Lots of discussion this morning

Well, I have my opinion about the starting production and encourage everyone to compare various options using either the game or the 'theorical' XLS I attached earlier.

The furs is on the second ring and therefore can''t be worked until T5, so we have no way (that I know) of discovering fishing between T6.

 

[ruff_hi]

I've got the save. Here are our options ... [Obviously this is a composite shot]

Options:

• settle in place or one of the blue dots?
• warrior either SW or SE

If we agree on a tech order, build and worked tile, then I will also press enter to finish the turn. My preferences are:

tech order (fishing)
build (barracks)
worked tile (2F, 1H tile) <--- Edit: changed selection.

Note: I wasn't going to upload file to official location, just attach it here if we don't want to press enter.

Summary of Suggestions
chmoosi -
Compromise -
Jabah - settle in place (below)
Kodii - Barracks, Fishing, Grassland Forest sounds very good to me (pg 4)
LKendter -
ruff_hi - settle in place, start fishing and barracks, warrior SE to explore
sooooo - barracks, fishing and grass forest (pg 4)
Swiss Pauli - settle in place, post screenie (below)
TheArchduke -

 

[sooooo]

Building a worker and going for (chopping) the pyramids just doesn't sound right to me. The refund just isn't worth the loss of production. There are so many downsides. Firstly we are chopping forests, which I really don't think we should do much of. I think we should chop max 2 forests. Health limits on vanilla deity are very low and we aren't expansive (the best trait for OCC). Secondly we are using up valuable research (for masonry and bronze working) and production (on worker and pyramids), which could be better spent (IMO) on researching writing, building more archers and a library for an earlier academy. Thirdly building a worker and quarry is just a waste if we cannot defend the quarry. And we probably can't defend the quarry if we are using production on a wonder. Fourthly building pyramids means we need early globe theatre, since we aren't in HR. That's a significant tech deviation to drama (using up the beakers we are getting from REP) and an early dilution of our GP pool. Whereas monarchy is directly on our tech path to feudalism.

I honestly think that surviving is our no. 1 priority. We only need to tech fast enough to get defensive techs like feudalism and rifling. And possibly a tech to gift to an AI for relations bonus. Tech rate is important, don't get me wrong, but not important enough to take a big early-representation gamble with the pyramids. The most important aspect to this game is 1) surviving and 2) diplomacy to secure a PA.

So in summary, I believe tech order should not include bronze working or masonry. After archery we should head for sailing (lighthouse), writing (library) and alphabet, trading for BW and mathematics.

 

[LKendter]

FYI - ruff_hi should play at least two turns. IIRC Alan started not to upload the same turn again.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I honestly think that surviving is our no. 1 priority. We only need to tech fast enough to get defensive techs like feudalism and rifling. And possibly a tech to gift to an AI for relations bonus. Tech rate is important, don't get me wrong, but not important enough to take a big early-representation gamble with the pyramids. The most important aspect to this game is 1) surviving and 2) diplomacy to secure a PA.

I don't think this is the correct path: I've played ten test games from the start (plus some late games variations) and the only defeats I had were early (one or two archers). I've been able to trade in Feudalism with either CS or Philo (plus change) in all games. I think you're basing your strategy on the Pangaea Deity challenge which is not correct: there's less aggression towards us becuase we're on the coast and have only 2-3 near neighbours, not all of whom will have Copper for an axe rush. On Pangaea, it's more likely to have 5-6 neighbours and so double (at least) the chance of a rush.

So in summary, I believe tech order should not include bronze working or masonry. After archery we should head for sailing (lighthouse), writing (library) and alphabet, trading for BW and mathematics.

I'm not convinced about skipping BW for Sailing, as we should whip a worker at size 4 to connect the furs to increase our beakers and, especially, increase the happy cap long before Alpha. I'd trade for sailing then whip the lighthouse at that point.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

@ruff - settle in place then post another screenie. If there's nothing special revealed, work a grass forest. Given that founding the city will reveal the tile 1SW of the warrior (and beyond) there's no point going that way unless a hut is revealed (i.e. SE as default move).

 

[Jabah]

Nota - I have played with my XLS file and there are indeed some better opening than what I was considering. (grassland-forrest first seems to be better)

Back to the real case

I agree now )) about working a grass-forrest.

I still want a warrior before starting WB, to be able to have a token warrior defending while the other one is exploring a bit.
(but since it is a 5t production compare to 6t reseach for fishing, not a big deal.

On the other hand, why do you really want to end the turn ?
(except having a different save to upload)


@ ruff :
Settle this turn is the only option, we never know an AI extra settler might block us if we want
I would move the warrior on a hill away from settler just for a slightly better view

@Soooo :
- I thing we should NOT skip BW : 1st because it increase our power (less likely to be attacked) and 2nd because if the tile N has copper, we will be out of the competition for not working it asap.

- We should also NOT skip masonry (but time it with worker) : stone (5hammer) and marble (4hammer+3gold) are far better than the normal hills (especially if we are not mining any because of tree).

- I am not considering that we have a good chance for Pyramids, but the refund is nice (since we have indus+stone multipliers) and except extra archers, we will have nothing to build, so imho after the 3rd archer, we should build 'wealth' by going for Mids

- Forest cutting : I would also avoid it, but at least for the Great Library, I would at least consider removing one (especially if we have an odd number).

Jabah

 

[Compromise]

What a day to be busy in RL.

Anyway, I think we (ruff) should:

1) Settle in place
2) Move the warrior as appropriate (probably SE)
3) Start a barracks
4) Start on Fishing
5) Hit Enter
6) Take screenshots
7) Save it and discuss
On the basis of Swiss' experiments, I'm in favor of a barracks before a warrior, but even if we decide to switch to a warrior after 1T of barracks, the barracks effort won't be lost and the warrior can still be made to complete as Fishing is discovered.

 

[ruff_hi]

I'm looking at the barracks start option. Assuming that a Barracks is worth 4 warriors on the str scale (and noting that a barracks will actually not protect you if you get attacked ) then working max hammers at all times (except when netted crabs become available, at which point you swap to that tile) will grow to size 2 on T17 and finish the barracks on T21.

Working 2H, 1F prior to finishing fishing will grow to size 2 on T15 and finish the barracks on T22.

Putting off the barracks all together means the following:

Warrior --> WB --> Archer --> ?? WB / Archer

Anyway, I'm going to proceed as Compromise suggested above - screen shots shortly.

 

[ruff_hi]

Here is our city ...

And the surrounding lands ...

I haven't pressed enter yet. Other points:

• we can build 2 warriors in 6 turns if we work the 3H tiles - this might be the best way to get something from these early hammers as any invested in a barracks might decay
• Barracks will take 60Hs
• Warrior takes 15Hs
• Worker takes 60Hs
• Fishing - 57b
• Hunting - 57b
• Archery - 85b
• Bronze Working - 171b
• Wheel - 85b
• Our name is 'SGOTM07' - which is just soooo dull!
• Growth in 11 turns if we work the 2F, 1H tile
• We have no 1F, 2H tiles (not even after border pop)
• working the 1f, 1H, 1C tile does not speed up fishing - still 6 turns.

PS: I moved 1 unit 1 tile. One more move and my involvement in this game is complete .

 

[Swiss Pauli]

The hammers won't decay if we go barracks-WB-barracks.

This start looks very easy indeed: those mountains will deter the AI from getting in our face early on, and those food specials are gravy. Almost disappointing in a way. I'm wondering if there's a fly in the ointment (alone on a little island?).

@ruff - you forgot to mention founding (and naming) our city in your contribution to our efforts and whilst we don't have a 1/2/0, we do have a 1/2/1 (uncamped furs).

 

[ruff_hi]

waiting for someone to notice the naming (and decoding it ). Just been playing with production spreadsheets and I have developed (another) alternative ...

tech = hunting, archery, fishing
build = barracks
tile = 3H

This will give us archery in completed barracks in 12 turns plus 1 4XP warrior and 1 4XP archer before we can build a workboat. It also means that we will not grow for ages! Sure - a defensive move but it is the quickest way to getting an archer defending our city.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Airstrip 1 would have been a bit more obvious

But back on topic: how far should we play on before breaking for a weekend of testing? Next turn? Meet the neighbours?

 

[Jabah]

I am in favor of not hitting "enter" at all before our WE tests.
(or at the very least no more than once, since more is really meaning we forfeit some option, and except knoing our immediat neighbour, I don't think it is worth it)

Having Sheep AND Deer is a huge improvment compare to all our previous tests.

On another subject, I am pretty sure (will post an xls version of the 'previous' opening that the best/quickest developpement plan was 6t of whatever you want (except worker) working 2f1h tile, then 6t of 0f3h building WB, then max growth (with little various) to size2 (either building another WB or finishing whatever was started), then it all depebd on what we want next (2nd WB, barrack,warrior...)

Now with Deer (forrested one on top ) + sheep, We should consider more seriously worker quite soon (my feeling would say 2WB before worker, but that need testing).

@ ruff : if you want barrack and warrior, since warrior (promoted or not) are not expeced to win any fight, I would build the warrior before to have a 'bigger' power earlier.
I also won't count to much on the mountain to prevent the AI to settle, on several of our tests, the AIs did settle on the tile SE of furs which is still free.
--> in fact I consider very likely that one AI WILL settle on the tile SW of the warrior, trying (probably succeding for the first 2) to steal our furs, deers and marble.

Jabah

 

[ruff_hi]

My play suggestion would change a lot if we have Japan next door (if so, barracks, archers then think about fishing boats) ... so, I for one, would like to do a little exploring to find our neighbours.

 

[Jabah]

Also

We have 11 forrests, and only suspect empty tile (pretty sure they is either copper, Iron, horse ...or uranium, not sure what is possible, but you could expect anything from the SGOtM staff) where forest could grow. Cutting 1 tree inside BFC could be possible (and as many as we want outside before it goes inside a AIs border).

 

[Swiss Pauli]

My play suggestion would change a lot if we have Japan next door (if so, barracks, archers then think about fishing boats) ... so, I for one, would like to do a little exploring to find our neighbours.

When did Toku come after you? And with what? It seems to have left some deep emotional scars