SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[Swiss Pauli]

It might actually work without poly too as IW+masonry is AH+sailing+masonry which he is offering us now. So, my proposal:

Turn #1 Trade BW, poly from asoka, start researching Lit

Turn #2 Trade masonry, IW from Huyana, giving poly if needed.

This doesn't get us AH or sailing. Maybe trade them later as we don't want to spread the alphabet too much yet?

I think this could work out well. If we can't get Masonry & IW from Capac then Ruff should stop again so we can reconsider.

 

[ruff_hi]

I'll look at the options discussed here over lunch (in 1 hr) and put forward a plan. Then we can discuss this afternoon and I can play a few turns tonight (in 8 or 9 hrs).

IIRC - tile culture warfare was basically even ... a very little bit down but not much.

 

[sooooo]

I would agree with those acceptable requests.

Regarding WFYHBTA, I wouldn't worry about it. We should be planning on getting friendly civs to trade with.

 

[Jabah]

Regarding WFYHBTA, I wouldn't worry about it. We should be planning on getting friendly civs to trade with.

We plan to be friendly, but with a top AI (or a few), not a bottom one

If we don't care about WFYABTA (do we really?), then why not trade Alpha on T2 for the maximum (within reason, like AH, sailing, religous tech...)

 

[Compromise]

I'll look at the options discussed here over lunch (in 1 hr) and put forward a plan. Then we can discuss this afternoon and I can play a few turns tonight (in 8 or 9 hrs).

Sounds good, ruff.

And I like the demand response suggestions. Basically: Don't irritate the AIs but if you have to make a choice, be nicer to the Jewish civs.

 

[ruff_hi]

Recap ... Trade Options: all trades for Alphabet ...

• Asoka will give Meditation, Polytheism and Masonry
• Washington will give Polytheism, Sailing and Masonry
• Elizabeth will give Masonry, Animal Husbandry and Bronze Working <-- this looks nice but remember that I don't trade techs well
• Fred (no trade for Myst) will give Sailing, Masonry and Animal Husbandry
• Isabella will give Sailing, Masonry and Animal Husbandry
• Alex will give Sailing, Masonry and Animal Husbandry
• Huayna will give Meditation Sailing and Masonry
• Tokugawa will not give anything

various tech trade quotes lifted from above ...

• chmoosi: Didn't lizzie have marble? So we might not want to trade alpha to her.
• good discussion from swiss pauli ... http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6805658&postcount=306
• Jabah: Another option is to do the Lisa trade (BW+animal+masonry), turn research to 0% for 1t (fire scientist to get food or commerce) so we will have money for the few futur deficit, and next turn trade for IW+Poly (+ whatever/ sailing). I think I prefer this option.
• chmoosi: Turn #1 Trade BW, poly from asoka, start researching Lit, Turn #2 Trade masonry, IW from Huyana, giving poly if needed.

Aim for next turn set
End of Set: Discovery of Literature
Primary Aims: get Literature, don't endanger GLib build
Secondary Aims: tech trade as discussed
Tertiary Aims: Explore

Literature requires poly, so I will be trading for poly this turn. Options are Washington or Asoka. Will go with Asoka because we don't want to run the risk of trading with someone's worst enemy (can we find out if anyone hates Washington?). I'll see what else I can get for alphabet too. However, this does give Mr Tech leader a new tech but he cannot really exploit it by tech trading.

Citizen / Tiles
Max commerce running scientists. Building academy when scientist pops.

Units

• Archer in India will return home - not much else for him to see
• Warrior will enter Greek lands (sign OB with Alex)
• Worker(s) will road silver (if not done), quarry marble (if not done) and start to pre-chop forests (any preference on which forests?) ... I'm thinking grasslands 1E and 1SW of capital (will road after reducing chop time to 1 turn if I have time).

AI Requests

• tech request - yes
• adopt religion - yes if Judaism, no otherwise
• cancel deals - yes if asked by Jewish block, yes if Buddhist against non-Jewish
• war - no

 

[Jabah]

....can we find out if anyone hates Washington?)

From this with the color code (red : furious // purple : annoyed // white : cautious // blue : pleased // xxx : friendly).
No one is furious at GW yet (but that doesn't mean he is not someone worst ennemy i think ?) - But from GW 'line' you could see that Alex, Toku, Capac and Isa are annoyed with him. Since those 4 are also annoyed with at least another AI, we can't really tell if he is one of those worst ennemy.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

[*]Warrior will enter Greek lands (sign OB with Alex)

That's about the only thing I don't agree with: I'd rather we OBs with nice guy Fred than agg Alex.

As to open options, I think the chmoosi plan of current turn poly/bw from Asoka, next turn iron/masonry from Capac(before moving worker) was the most popular.

 

[Jabah]

I had a look at the save and wants to add a few things:

1. Working coast instead of deer is 2 research better even if building research (for the cost of 1 food)

2. The Lisa deal is possible with several AI.
Capac, Fred, Alex and Isa would all accept to offer BW+Masonry+Animal for Alpha if you ask. (just select and ask want they want and they will they the deal is fine)

3. Wash will also give BW+Poly for Alpha (but won't add anything to it like masonry)

4. Asoka is pleased, so it is possible to asks him gently to give us a tech for free (masonry is the cheapest for exemple) (Impossible to test as it is non reversible to ask)

Jabah

 

[Jabah]

Isa is strangly the least unpopular, with only Toku annoyed toward her.
(Asoka also is quite popular, only Alex is annoyed toward him)

If we don't care about WFYABTA, I would do :
Lisa : Alphabet for BW+Masonry+animal
Asoka : Alphabet for Sailing+Poly (+ possibly the last available tech)

Then next turn: IW from Capac

 

[Kodii]

Don't OB with Alex. OB with Freddy.

For trades, please don't trade with Lizzy, which is probably my paranoia talking.

I agree we should trade with Asoka to begin with, then HC after that. Maybe try to ask Asoka for a tech.

It is absolutely necessary to get the following techs out of these trades:

Polytheism, Bronze Working, Masonry

The following would also be nice:

Iron Working, Sailing, Animal Husbandry

Unnecessary:

Meditation

 

[Jabah]

Kodii, I know that Lizzy is probably going to be in trouble at some point, sooner or later. But right now, it seems quite safe to trade right now.
Anyway trade BW+Poly to Asoka and Masonry+IW next turn (to Capac for example) is fine.

Jabah

 

[ruff_hi]

playing now ...

OB with Fred (was always going to be Fred - no idea why I said Alex)
Trade for Poly from Asoka plus what ever else I can get

Units / tiles / AI demands as per above

 

[ruff_hi]

I've stopped after 3 turns ... 5 turns to go on Lit, 5 turns to go on Marble Quarry.

Spoiler turn log :

Turn 63, 1480 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Frederick, Washington, Asoka, Elizabeth, Alexander, Huayna Capac, Isabella
Turn 63, 1480 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!
Turn 63, 1480 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Moses has been born in York!

Turn 64, 1440 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Frederick, Washington, Asoka, Elizabeth, Alexander, Huayna Capac, Isabella
Turn 64, 1440 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!
Turn 64, 1440 BC: You have discovered Masonry!
Turn 64, 1440 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Elizabeth has completed The Kong Miao!
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Elizabeth converts to Confucianism!

Turn 65, 1400 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Washington, Julius Caesar, Asoka
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Can Trade Open Borders with: Julius Caesar

Turn 66, 1360 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Frederick, Elizabeth, Alexander, Huayna Capac

Save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG007_BC1360_01.Civ4SavedGame

Activity ...
T0
Trade alphabet to Asoka for Poly and BW
We have copper
Marble (64%), Deer (72%), Silver (66%)

IBT
Isabella asks us for crabs - granted - cancel in 10 turns

T1
Trade Silver to Asoka for Incense
Trade Alphabet to Huayna for Animal Hus, Masonry, Sailing
We have NO horses
Trade OB with Fred
We get a '-1' penalty with Fred for trading with Worse Enemy (Huayna) - we should have seen that coming
Warrior explores - meets JC (missing copper, has IW and Maths on us, we have Alphabet and Myst on him)
Marble (64%), Deer (72%), Silver (65%)

IBT
Fred wants to trade IW for Alphabet - no
Lizzie wants to trade Med for Poly - no
Marble (64%), Deer (72%), Silver (65%)

T2
Marble (64%), Deer (73%), Silver (65%)
I'm stopping - see attachment. Imageshack not working so have to add attachment - sorry - Asoka has Literature - hope he is building the hanging gardens and not the GLib.

 

[ruff_hi]

oh - the copper ... its under our City That tile is now 2F3H.

 

[Kodii]

Asoka doesn't have good hammers, so I think we will still be able to get the GL.

Trade Alphabet and Mysticism to Fred for Math

Also trade for IW

Keep going for Literature and hold your breath

 

[ruff_hi]

ok - took a break - walked the dog, reread Macbeth (screw your courage to the sticking place) ... playing next 5 turns ...

 

[ruff_hi]

next round ... http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG007_BC1200_01.Civ4SavedGame

Spoiler log :

Turn 66, 1360 BC: Can Trade Open Borders with: Washington, Julius Caesar, Alexander, Isabella

Turn 67, 1320 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!

Turn 68, 1280 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 68, 1280 BC: You have discovered a source of Iron near Malabar Front!
Turn 68, 1280 BC: Xi Ling Shi has been born in Malabar Front!
Turn 68, 1280 BC: Nabu-rimanni has been born in Delhi!

Turn 69, 1240 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Kublai Khan
Turn 69, 1240 BC: Can Trade Open Borders with: Kublai Khan
Turn 69, 1240 BC: You have discovered Literature!

Traded alphabet and myst to Fred for maths.
Signed OBs with JC
Met Kublai - we have a -4 for trading with his worst enemy
Asoka has calendar (in 2 turns - a tech that would take us 14)
Traded maths to Lizzie for IW (Iron to our W in the ice)

Fred has a settler in our back yard. We can cancel OBs in 4 turns but it will probably just bump that settler to the open tile in the West. Our scientist built the academy bringing Literature down by 1 turn. I started another worker after we finished the Archer but had to keep high science / low hammers so worker is min 3 turns away. Quarry is finished - perfect timing! Our best build for the GLib is 10 turns, 9 turns with a bit of MM (finish camping the deer, work more hammers) sans chopping.

 

[Kodii]

Washington has marble.

I would chop the forested plains hill NE of Malabar.

The Judaism block is no longer as appealing, especially since Tokugawa and HC are so weak (OCCs) and since there are only three of them and four Buddhists. On top of that, Asoka is still good friends with Izzy.

 

[Compromise]

Looks like a good turnset, Ruff. Thanks for the multiple reports and for waiting through the long-weekend delay.

We'll want a day or so to take a look at the save to see what sage advice we can offer. Then I think sooooo will see if we can land the Great Library (thus redeeming himself for the New York Hindu debacle ) with Swiss Pauli on deck.