SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[ruff_hi]

Build: GLib in 10 minus river forest chop
Worker: camp deer, chop forest, quarry stone.
Explorer: check out Capac's second city.
Archers: promote some, guard the worker.
Research: Medi-Priest-CoL.
Trading: deer for incense (when allowed).
Diplo: maintain status quo

I like this. Some suggestions / observations:

• we cannot close borders with Freddie for 3 or 4 turns (IIRC)
• Freddie walked his settler away from the ice cap, currently N (or NW) of our city
• warrior explorer is in JC territory - suggest head S (or SE) to see what is down there - might already be at the coast
• incense / happy trade with Asoka can be canceled in 3 or 4 turns (IIRC)
• sorry I didn't MM the worker out pre-lit ... only thought of it once stupid archer had finished

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Start set as planned, except switching to pasture cows at the end, instead of quarry stone, as Jabah was correct about the hammers.

T1 - Jesusism FIDAL. Could be Izzy Camp deer. Switch from crabs to hill.

T2 - Capac turns up demanding Literature, the bastard! Mulled it over: can't see his second city, so I decide NOT to give in to his arrogant demand. Doesn't send him into WHEOOH.

T3 - Medi => Priest. Trade Deer to Asoka for incense. GW is in WHEOOH Check power: we're about two-thirds of his, so we should be OK seeing as he has no metal, but makes me nervous anyway...

T4 - Decline GW's Maths for Mono proposal. Chop done. GLib in two...

T5 - Priest => CoL. Decline OBs with GW, and Kublai's Aplha for Mono proposal. GLib in one...

T6 - Asoka completes..........Hanging Gardens. Izzy completes..........Mahabodi.

There was no overflow, and I have left the worker in the queue. The archer might have a movement point left. The warrior can go look over Toku's fence if we want.

Spoiler :

Turn 71, 1160 BC: Christianity has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 72, 1120 BC: Plato has been born in a far away land!

Turn 73, 1080 BC: You have discovered Meditation!
Turn 73, 1080 BC: Aristotle has been born in a far away land!
Turn 73, 1080 BC: Ptolemy has been born in a far away land!

Turn 74, 1040 BC: Deal Canceled: Silver to Asoka for Incense

Turn 75, 1000 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 75 ? for Malabar Front.
Turn 75, 1000 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!
Turn 75, 1000 BC: Asoka adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 75, 1000 BC: Mahavira has been born in a far away land!

Turn 76, 975 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Asoka
Turn 76, 975 BC: SGOTM07 has completed The Great Library!
Turn 76, 975 BC: You have constructed The Great Library in Malabar Front. Work has now begun on a Worker.
Turn 76, 975 BC: Asoka has completed The Hanging Gardens!
Turn 76, 975 BC: The Mahabodhi has been built in a far away land!

Turn 77, 950 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Asoka

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG007_BC0950_01.Civ4SavedGame

 

[ruff_hi]

well done

Looking at the various charts, we are trailing every other team in the culture race. Some must of got religion and some must have landed a wonder. We are pretty much the strongest (power) and our score was the lowest but is starting to creep up (some must have bigger cities, more happiness via religion and not losing the furs).

I feel that having a very concrete objective based play has helped us. Objective 1: Early Growth. Objective 2: GLib. Objective 3: ????

 

[LKendter]

Objective 1: Early Growth. Objective 2: GLib. Objective 3: ????

I think the next turn will need a long debate. Everything I read was about planning up to GL.

Congrats on a big wonder.
Those extra beakers will go a long way toward keeping up in tech.

 

[Jabah]

well done

I feel that having a very concrete objective based play has helped us. Objective 1: Early Growth. Objective 2: GLib. Objective 3: ????

Objective3 : bureaucracy asap anyone ?
(maybe NE fast then max research)


GW being in WHEOOH, I would say there is a chance that it could be for Lisa or Asoka (seeing that they are both in 'wrong' religion and pressuring his borders in Washington in a more serious way than what we are doing).
If he declares on someone else, we might have to consider joining seriously if asked.

Capac asking for Litterature, I might have accepted, there was no way he could build the Glib faster than us (except GE).

We need to check the F4's screens (tech trade and relation) in game to see if we could

 

[Compromise]

Nice!

I agree that we have a bit of discussion to go. I think we'll have Sooooo play, but that depends on his availability once our plan coalesces.

 

[Kodii]

Great work landing the GL!

As for Objective 3...

We could tech to CS (revolt to Slavery (?) and Bureaucracy), and use Alpha/Lit/CoL as trading material. Malabar, if working 2 scientists, has a GS due in 14 turns, which we can use to bulb Philosophy or keep for Education. Maybe we can work our way up towards Liberalism, and take Nationalism as our free tech, which is on the way to Military Tradition.

Alternatively, should we try to head for Optics (caravel, whales) instead?

Washington is surprisingly Cautious towards Asoka and is Annoyed at: JC, HC, Toku and Alex, so he'll probably declare on one of those

Malabar's borders expand in 13, which will secure our eastern ice holdings

 

[chmoosi]

Grrreatt libraryyy!



For the continuation.. Macro level I agree with going to CS. We should get Monarchy as soon as possible, traded with CoL. Also caste system is good for extra scientists as we have plentiful food.

Micro level we should probably call the archer back home, there isn't that much for him to do anymore. Also we are growing in 5 turn, during which time we also finish one basic building. Lighthouse would get us one GS working and monastery is for science&culture wars. Worker production should be halted for later if ever imo..

Also after next turn we should see where Fred's troops in our lands are headed. Even though it seems they are retreating we might wanna check just in case.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I agree now is a good time to take stock. Here are my thoughts:

Our tech goals: CS (BUR), Edu (Oxford), Mil Trad (DefPac). Depending on how things look, snagging Liberalism (taking Nationalism) would be a boon, but isn't essential.

Tech Trading: the problem with Alpa and Lit is that they can't be traded as a package, so we'll probably need CoL to grab Monarchy. When we can make this trade, then we might want to trade things like Mono with some backward AIs.

Civics: still looking like an NSR game to me, esp now Liz is Kung-fu. HR when Monarchy comes in is a given, as is BUR with CS. Do we need Slavery? It's my default civic, so I'm not well placed to argue against it. I normally abandon it in OCC after CS is in to revolt to BUR/Caste.

Diplo: getting to be a bit of a headache with all those civs and different religions. The split of warmongers and peacemongers doesn't make it any easier!

I'm sure GW is out to get us, but he won't pose a serious threat until he gets Feudalism.

The Other Island: if we're lucky, it'll have a Taoism v Jesusism schism. Here are the Civs:

- Monte
- Mansa
- Russia
- Cyrus
- Saladin
- Hatty
- France

I'd guess that it would be Boney and Peter over there to beef up the aggression levels, but that's pure conjecture.

 

[chmoosi]

Oh, also where do I update my foreign advisor? I still have the old one where it doesn't show tech trading as detailed as it could be.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Exotic foreign advisor is in one of the HOF mod tabs of the Options menu.

More thoughts:

Other Teams: I think many teams snagged Henge based on the culture scores, probably as part of a SSE strategy which calls for mass Prophet settling (IIRC). One team that hasn't is Murky Waters...maybe we're following a similar path

 

[chmoosi]

I'm not familiar with SSE strategy.. care to expand on that?

 

[Jabah]

Short term bureaucracy seems a consensus.

building order
What do we build while researching CoL and CS ?
And what is our compromise between hammer and research. ?

We need :
worker (queued) : do we really need another one (as much as I hate abandoning partially built units, I don't think it is needed)
NE : urgent for more GP.
monastry : urgent ?
granary : need as soon as we solve some of happy limit
temple : depend on our solution to happy (but is an easy early for 1 )
lighthouse : nice but not critical until we want high growth.
aqueduct : when health will be a pb (not soon)
wall : not really urgent since we soon will have more culture for defence.
axe and spear : at least 1 for insurance is declare by someone with more than archers.

I suggest NE at max prod, then max research while building monastry, axe, spear. (growing if we manage to get lux)

Units
If we have fiished 'mapping' our island, we could disband the useless warrior and possibly the exploring archer to save maintenance (but then build asap an axe+spear)

For happiness:
- trade could be an short term option.
- a temple will get a tiny short term solution.
- HR is a good medium term solution.
- but we want to build the GT for an ultimate solution at some point.

GPP
I would settle GS except if they can bulb to the max (Education for example) or get a very good trade materail (monopoly, which I am not sure will be the case for Philo).

Liberalism
We should try to beeline it, in all the tests I played up to there, I had no problem getting there first (using 1GS for most of Education). Take Nationalism and build Taj.


Other teams
I was more thinking of the other teams getting the Oracle, especially since some had a very low power level for a long time (= didn't get high power techs, buildings or units) and the culture was not that early.
I doubt any manage to get an early religion.
But from the cpt some are getting, they must have had several 'early' Wonders

 

[sooooo]

Great work

Will have a look at the save tonight, write a proposal and then hopefully play tomorrow.

 

[Jabah]

I had a quick look at the game, nothing special to add except :

1. don't forget to cancel the free crabs that we are giving to Isa.

2. since we already have traded for happy, I would go fast to size 6:
So not building worker right now but NE with 3t of crabsx2, deer, stone, marble, then swap stone for sheep when ready on T4 for growth next turn.

At size6, I suggest probably crabsx2, marble, deer+ 2 scientists (possibly swap deer/stone every other turn to stay at stable food) while finishing NE
Or Worker (I don't really think we need it now)

Jabah

 

[sooooo]

I suggest NE at max prod, then max research while building monastry, axe, spear. (growing if we manage to get lux)

I like this. I also don't think we need a second worker.

We should try to beeline it, in all the tests I played up to there, I had no problem getting there first (using 1GS for most of Education). Take Nationalism and build Taj.

Possibly we want liberalism. Possibly not. What we don't want to do is build the Taj because it gives GA points for a negligible bonus. Also I don't think we want to bulb any tech, even education.

I will stop when we get CoL or we are declared upon. CoL should hopefully be good trade fodder. There is no need for a rush to drama like a normal OCC because we don't have pyramids and can trade for monarchy. So probably it will be to civil service after CoL.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Also I don't think we want to bulb any tech, even education.

Can you expand on your reasoning here? I think bulbing is the way forward in this game because it gives us an early boost, whereas most of the late game heavy-lifting will be done by our PArtner, thus reversing the usual OCC logic for specialists (i.e. settle 'em and run REP).

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Other teams
I was more thinking of the other teams getting the Oracle, especially since some had a very low power level for a long time (= didn't get high power techs, buildings or units) and the culture was not that early.
I doubt any manage to get an early religion.
But from the cpt some are getting, they must have had several 'early' Wonders

Maybe you're right about the Oracle, taking Metalcasting => early Colossus, seeing as there is Copper under the city tile.

 

[sooooo]

Our tech leader is slightly confused:



I stick with Jabah's plan of NE at max production. Thus there were very little decisions to make along the way to the discovery of Code of Laws.

2 important diplomatic changes, with Washington and Frederick converting to Judaism. Presumably Asoka has the shrine and missionarying everyone.



Washington gets feudalism and we are reminded of one of the more broken aspects of vanilla civ as he upgrades his whole army in a turn.



We are dead if he declares, which is slightly unnerving because he's in WHEOOH. Alex is his worst enemy though, and his archer stack moved back and forth between two tundra squares. Hunting seals?

A shot of the Japanese army, note the galleys are useless with Toku's isolationist policy.



After cancelling Izzy's free crab suppers, I send them over to those cheeky Incans for some dyes:



With one turn to go on the nat. epic., I switch our city over to science. Next turn it completes and we also get code of laws.

No unfortunately Asoka got the tech before we did, so we can't grab monarchy off of him. The only decent trade is with HC, who will give us currency.



I have not done the trade, but it looks OK to me.




The tech screen, you can't see Izzy but she (or he according to Asoka) is backwards.



Things to discuss:

Should we convert to Judaism (I think yes)

Next tech? With getting dyes we have more of a happy cushion and possibly could wait for monarchy to become available. I think I'd prefer pressing onwards to civil service.

Builds? I think we need to build military. A lighthouse and granary can wait until we get monarchy.

Civics?

 

[sooooo]

Link to save

And the turn log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 950 BC to 750 BC:

Turn 77, 950 BC: Frederick converts to Judaism!

Turn 78, 925 BC: Zoroaster has been born in a far away land!
Turn 78, 925 BC: Washington converts to Judaism!

Turn 79, 900 BC: Julius Caesar adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 80, 875 BC: Frederick adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 80, 875 BC: Hypatia has been born in a far away land!

Turn 81, 850 BC: Huayna Capac adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 84, 775 BC: You have discovered Code of Laws!
Turn 84, 775 BC: Washington adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 84, 775 BC: Washington adopts Vassalage!
Turn 84, 775 BC: Washington adopts Serfdom!