SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[Jabah]

With GW switching to Judaism, we really should crush culturally NY now and regain soon the 2 cottages (the furs might take a while on the other end).

Switching to Judaism, I would say wait until someone asks for it for brownies points and also not to annoy Lisa to soon (she could be a possible trader for Monarchy)

I didn't try (Civ4 is on another PC), but I am pretty sure that Capac could be more generous and give a bit of money (100g) ontop of the deal. (I guess you ask what he wants for currency instead of asking 'what would make this deal works after selecting this trade').

I think we should go for CS (at max research, except next turn to grow to size7 asap).
We might have trade opportunity for Construction and Monarchy once their 'owners' are more numerous.

Last I checked, we would have been able to trade copper for gold to JC (who has Iron) if we are desesperate for another happy.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Hmmmmm...

- I don't think we should adopt Judaism until someone asks, but

- Open borders with GW immediately: IIRC an AI can declare if it wants to move units through your territory, but can't.

- We might survive an attack from GW's Longbows thanks to defensive bonuses and his lack of bravery, but we're doomed if/when he gets Construction.

- No AI has Philo and I'm sorely tempted to bulb it for the trade value (Feud, Construction, maybe MC and Machinery).

- Keep at least two Scientists hired to minimize Artist pollution from NE.

- Research CS as we should be able to get Monarchy.

- I think we should make the trade with Capac as he's now in the top half and is likely to go into WFYABTA soon anyway.

- Mono and Calendar aren't useful atm, so I'd not trade for them at this point.

 

[Jabah]

If Philo is still undiscovered when we get a GS, we could consider bulbing it, but I am not too confident about being 1st there.

Still thing we should MM to grow in 1t (fire 1scientist for 1turn)

 

[chmoosi]

So I'm up next.. Some thoughts on what to do.

Judaism seems an attractive choice.. If we bulb philo (in 4 turns in all probability) and adopt pacifism we have a true GP factory in our hands.

Also philosophy can be traded for monarchy (+maybe calendar) with asoka as soon as we get it. OTOH, CoL should also be enough if somebody else than Asoka would have it and trade with us! Philosophy has quite good trade value as taoism has been founded no AI is rushing to it.

Trading Lit+CoL for currency with capac gives us 100 gold which is nice too.

After growing (which as Jabah said can be done in one turn), emphasis on production and building a defensive force (keeping the 2 scientists of course). How many axes/archers before moving on to buildings? Maybe two axes and an archer?

What should we do with the worker next? Iron or stone? Both give +1 hammer and iron is faster I guess.

Also if we get a GA, we should just put him to work in the city yes?

There are no drawbacks opening borders with GW (for example could he scout our defences and attack accordingly) ?

Good place to pause the turn to ponder: Probable GS and philo bulbing to look for trade opportunities?

 

[Jabah]

No more archer for now, but 1spear would be nice to go with at least 1 axe (if we have enough spare money for maintenance, 2axe+1spear), all promoted to combat1.

Judaism+pacifism for GPP factory (need to check unit maintenance) or OrgRel for buildings ?

Anyway, I would delay Judaism until someone asks and delay the other civics until CS for a multi change (with a bit of luck to HR+bureaucracy+Caste+OrgRel/Pacif).

Stone is not bringing extra hammer (but bring stone!), Iron is out of workable tiles (but bring Iron! if we have a road connection which we don't).
Worker should road to connect sheep+iron to Malabar imho, then possibly farm the river grass. (and later quary the stone except we we aim at a 'stone' wonder at somepoint soon ?).

What would a GA bulb right now? if it is a good trade material we could always do that.

I guess pausing for 'quick review / brainstorming' at GP birth would be good.

Jabah

PS - good luck (the only luck we need is GW declaring on someoen else, preferably Khan or Alex not to make diplo more complicated).

 

[chmoosi]

If I recall correctly at this game speed changing 2 civics = 1 turn (3civs 2 turns) so we could maybe change HR + Paci (then let the city grow while researching CS) and then Caste&Bur. Also we might want to convert to judaism after adopting pacifism.

 

[Kodii]

What in tarnation possessed Washington to convert to Judaism?!

Well, it makes the Judaism bloc much more appealing, so I agree to convert when we are asked.

I would take the Currency trade and lightbulb Philo for trade purposes.

Mine the iron then connect both the iron and sheep.

I think you're good to go chmoosi, unless you have any other questions. As you said, it might be good to pause once we get our GS (or GA?) just to ensure we know where we're going from there.

OB with GW? Why not... but perhaps wait until our borders pop (4 turns)

 

[Compromise]

I agree. Chmoosi, feel free to play unless you have questions.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I'd OBs with GW now: the reason Fred didn't settle on the ice is that the Vanilla AI considers coast to be avoided like the plague.

 

[chmoosi]

Turn 1

Traded Lit&CoL for currency+100gold from huana

Turn 2

Oh crap... :

(images in thumbnails below)

Here's a shot of the troops headin' our way

(images in thumbnails below)

So it's not good but it's not hopeless either, we get an axeman for the defence. Our wandering archer doesn't make it but until next turn and the warrior 3-4 turns away. Quick approximation tells me we're better off here, but still..

Nothing much to do here I guess but I'm not hitting the turn button until we're all aware of the situation. What a glorious way to start my SGOTM career!

 

[chmoosi]

Spoiler :

Turn 85, 750 BC: Logging Game to File: autolog.txt
Turn 85, 750 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Frederick, Washington, Julius Caesar, Asoka, Elizabeth, Kublai Khan, Alexander, Huayna Capac, Isabella
Turn 85, 750 BC: Can Trade Open Borders with: Washington, Kublai Khan, Alexander, Isabella
Turn 85, 750 BC: Huayna Capac has 100 gold available for trade
Turn 85, 750 BC: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 85, 750 BC: Malabar Front has grown to size 7
Turn 85, 750 BC: Tokugawa adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 85, 750 BC: The Sistine Chapel has been built in a far away land!

Turn 86, 725 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Asoka, Elizabeth
Turn 86, 725 BC: Washington has declared war on you!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Asoka adopts Vassalage!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Asoka adopts Serfdom!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Elizabeth adopts Vassalage!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Elizabeth adopts Serfdom!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Elizabeth adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 87, 700 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Malabar Front!
Turn 87, 700 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Malabar Front!
Turn 87, 700 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Washington

Teh save:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG007_BC0700_01.Civ4SavedGame

 

[Jabah]

As you said, we should not panic too much:

1 lgbow should pillage, so 6 could attack next turn.
Roughly (first strike and a few subtilities not taken into account)
with power 6x (1+0.1) = 6.6
our best archers have 3 x (1+0.4+0.25+0.5+0.25+0.2+0.25)= 3x (2.85) = 8.55 (culture, hill, archer/city, archer/hill, promo, fortif)
(not promoted or not fortified) are around 7.8 and axe will have 8.25.

So we should more or less 'easily' win the first 5 battles , but depending on how damaged are our first units, we could possibly lose 1 or 2 (if no pillage). And then face the pillager (and possible reinforcement)

Edit : the biggest problem we will have is the lose of roads if GW pillage, then we will be without ressource and trade so might go back to size4/5. Maybe we should keep (if everything is good at Malabar) the archer fortified on silver (connected to Lisa) and trade for sailing (if we don't have it)

We should (you might have checked already) try to see how many Ais are ready to help us for any price (especially Asoka, Lisa or Capac who share a border, but anyone with open border up to GW will do). We need GW to have some other problems that attacking us


If not done (can't check from work)
1. promote any unpromoted archer (edit no, fortification bonus is better, promote next run to heal and also if 1 wins a fight,he could be promoted to "combat1 + medic1")
2. work tiles so even if GW move onto stone, we are sure to finish Axe (safer is to get 5 hammer too many, because the gouvenor might decide to work crabs if forced to abandon stone). That is very important, we NEED the axe to be finished next turn (otherwise we might lose 3 archers in total.
3. in fact try to have as many hammer as possible (if at food deficit but not starving back to size6, I don't knwo how many) so we might build an archer next turn if needed (but probably want to build some axe to try to go razing NY if opportunity happens).
4. change (if needed) worker to roading, so he could escape quickly. In fact maybe make him go safe into Malabar right now ?

 

[Jabah]

Just for info.

If most of the other teams are not declared, that would be really unfair .
When GW decided to have enough on his hand it was at a point where we had more power than absolutly any other teams (and sometime by a huge margin).

 

[Swiss Pauli]

@chmoosi: aaarrghh - giant screenshots! Can you please reduce (800/600 is the generally accepted max size) or post in spoilers?

@team - if we survive the initial assault with some margin to spare, how about adopting Slavery to whip some units and slave away some soon-to-be-unhappy-pop?

 

[Jabah]

slavery : I would say yes, but only if we have a good margin. (or more excatly I think we should wait until we do have happiness problem, because if we manage to make it last until then, we might either get monarchy or a GS, and could avoid a double revolution)

I think that anyway we chmoosi should pause again at the beginning of next turn just so we know the situation and check our options.

(Upload the next turn save, if not mandatory, should be discuss depending on our casualties as our situation could be quite clear for other teams and we might or not want that).

 

[ruff_hi]

looking at the picture - the axe will complete no matter what happens. Builds have their hammer credited, techs get their beakers, etc just after we press enter and before the next player's turn.

No one will help us with war - mixture of 'he is our closest friend, nothing to gain and we don't like you enough. Alex is WHEOOHs.

Max picture width with no scrolling is 860.

 

[chmoosi]

Ok we survived fine with one casualty. The situation:

We can get a new archer out every two turns at least for now. In the future it might require firing a scientist (is there a need for slavery?). Next turn brings more defence because our borders pop (also we seem to be gaining with the culture wars with furs 69% and cottages 54%). Also a great person is born.

How do I proceed?

 

[ruff_hi]

Did you promote the units before the screenshots? I would start an archer and take him up Medic path (see if you can pick off any really weak units with this guy to get him to Medic II (unlikely but possible). Check on Alex - see who he likes and dislikes. It would be bad if he dog-piled on us.

 

[Jabah]

I guess the promotions had happened (no reason we would have guerrilla II last turn).
Strangely the axe was not attacked. GW seems to have attacked with only 4 units - 1 winning and 3 losing giving us 1XP for 3 archers (I guess 1 or 2 pillaged our marble+road, no idea what happens to the last 1 or 2 - are they gone to pillage the stone ?).

With our surviving force being quite enough, I would either plan another axe or maybe a temple (to be whipped for happiness), but not an archer.

chmoosi: could we have either a larger picture or the save to see what exactly is around and where. (and how 'badly' we damaged GW).
I guess no one wants to help us, or you probably would have told us (did you check again this turn, now that GW has had some casualties?).


ruff : with GW forces being only lgbow, I don't think we will have lots of chance of finding a weak unit (except a very injured lb on its own). Maybe if the axe defends once we could promote it to medic.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Looked at the last save posted:

- Liz also has Feud and LBs so I'd rather not go Jewish for now and annoy her as well.

- Alex doesn't have OBs with Liz or GW, so we're safe from him for now.

- We can upgrade the warrior to an axe (if he makes it back). I'd take an axe up the medic path, and another to CI & Cover.

- Catapults change everything if GW gets Construction before we get Feudalism, so...

- If the GMan is a GS then I vote to bulb Philo and trade it to Asoka for Const & Monarchy, and Liz for Feudalism (scrouging some cash if from these two if we can). Not sure a dogpile bribe is worthwhile: it'll just make him annoyed with us in the future.

- Upgrade an archer or two to a LB on trading Feud then we should be fine (even against cats).

- The RNG is a [expletive deleted]; I'm glad we planned for the worst because we certainly got it!