SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[marconos]

If we revolt too early we will loose some commerce due to the higher maintenance correct? So is there a balance on time frame for the revolt?

Edit: Balbes posted while I was asking my question. So in reality when we switch makes no difference except for the commerce loss due to higher maintenance that I listed (though with 1 city of our city does maintenance matter?)

 

[Balbes]

In OCC maintenance should be pretty much zero for the whole game.

As I said, timing the revolution to change several civics at once is best.

 

[Ankka]

hello all, I was told to join this team.

I read most of the pages, but I might have missed something..

Some impressions:

We are doing pretty nicely.
The roster is huge for a SG.
I all the time forget this is OCC and so we can't grow to be bigger than the AI.
Is someone playing now? You guys have done huge amounts of posting but very little playing.

 

[Yamps]

Will our worker still have any useful tasks to do by then?


No, it's a common misconception. With each turn of anarchy you loss is equal to your production in the turn after the game ends. To illustrate: suppose your game lasted 200 turns and you revolted once at turn 30. You did not produce anything on T30 but you produced that amount on T31. Your T31 production is now T32... On the other hand, whatever you would have produced on T200, now shifted to T201 but the game ended before that.

So it is better to combine civic changes to minimize the total turns of anarchy, unless you absolutely need that civic now.


Actually they tend to neglect the Alphabet-Literature branch...

@Scouting
You mean to send the worker of to exploration! Brilliant indeed!
We will need him back to work the cooper or iron though (if there is any), but he can do that later. Go Classical Hero, send that worker of and find us some civs to trade with!

@Revolting, Alpha& Literature

Well, what you say about revolting is interesting reasoning. I've never thought of this.
But if we miss the GL turn 200 is not the same anymore. Yes, they are ignoring the Alpha - Literature branch on they own, but when we give them Alpha, someone will go for Literature. This always happened in my test games, and Acid mentioned it, too. That's way we have to rush for Literature and then rush for GL. In that context, it is better to revolt before we trade Alpha. Well, we should have hit the happy cap by now anyway.

hello all, I was told to join this team.

I read most of the pages, but I might have missed something..

Some impressions:

We are doing pretty nicely.
The roster is huge for a SG.
I all the time forget this is OCC and so we can't grow to be bigger than the AI.
Is someone playing now? You guys have done huge amounts of posting but very little playing.

Welcome to the team!
Well, we have a fine plan, we did a lot of testing, and we will now follow it through very fast.

 

[Balbes]

But if we miss the GL turn 200 is not the same anymore. Yes, they are ignoring the Alpha - Literature branch on they own, but when we give them Alpha, someone will go for Literature. This always happened in my test games, and Acid mentioned it, too. That's way we have to rush for Literature and then rush for GL. In that context, it is better to revolt before we trade Alpha.

Sorry, I don't think I quite understand your argument. My reasoning still applies to all the races within the game, such as the race to the GLib. Whenever you go into anarchy during a race, you lose (for the purposes of this race) your production for the turn after the finish (the completion of the GLib in this example), not the anarchy turn. The loss stays exactly the same regardless of when the anarchy occurs. The only way to decrease this loss is not to revolt at all.

Regarding the happy cap: it is highly recommended to hire 2 scientists right after the library completes. Will Beijing still outgrow its happy cap before Alphabet?

Has anybody examined the other civs' offers for resource trades?

 

[Yamps]

Classical Hero posted the save!
Being enthusiastic to see what is happening, I've just opened it.

We need to think here hard people!

The turn is T60/1600 BC, and we'll have Alpha in 2 turns. This is a record, we have never had it so soon! Great job, Classical Hero!

But, there is a but. Elizabeth, the great Queen of England, being intellectual and enlightened, has just discovered Alphabet herself!

That's two civs we can't trade with: Liz and Toku.
Let's try to find the best strategy here, every turn counts.

Here are some fresh screen shots:

City

Spoiler :

Outside

Spoiler :

GNP

Spoiler :

Power

Spoiler :

P.S.
Hope you don't mind me posting this Classical Hero. Just couldn't wait to see it.

 

[Yamps]

Sorry, I don't think I quite understand your argument. My reasoning still applies to all the races within the game, such as the race to the GLib. Whenever you go into anarchy during a race, you lose (for the purposes of this race) your production for the turn after the finish (the completion of the GLib in this example), not the anarchy turn. The loss stays exactly the same regardless of when the anarchy occurs. The only way to decrease this loss is not to revolt at all.

Regarding the happy cap: it is highly recommended to hire 2 scientists right after the library completes. Will Beijing still outgrow its happy cap before Alphabet?

Has anybody examined the other civs' offers for resource trades?

I understand what you say. The point was this:

Let's do the anarchy before the real race starts. Here is what I mean:

1)Let's say we trade Alpha on turn 1
2)Let's say the AI will have Literacy on turn 10 (because of our trade)
3)We don't like anarchy in those turns, right? If we revolt before turn 1, we have 10 turns for the race and improved economy, not 9.

Am I wrong? Anyway, this is a bit academic now when Liz has Alpha!
About the cap, we are now at 6/5 and we will be on 6/6 the next turn.

Some quick ideas for our current position:

1) We must send that worker to exploration right now. Pasture can wait.
2) We will grow to size 6 next turn and we will work the stone.
3) When we discover Alpha in 2 turns, we can't research Literature right away, let's give all into production to hurry the library.
4) We shall see what we can get in trade. I expect (Mysticism,Archery,AH) for Alpha, (Sailing and BW) for Alpha on the turn we get Alpha. Next turn Poly.

P.S. No resources to trade! Liz offers clam, but she has crab. No happy resources offered.

 

[Yamps]

Other Teams' progress:

Look at the Culture graph!
Culture graph

We have a steep increasement on turn 40 because of The Pyramids (+6 ). According to Civopedia, SH gives +8 . There are no other steep culture increasements, they haven't built any wonders yet, at least they haven't posted it.

 

[Balbes]

No resources to trade! Liz offers clam, but she has crab.

Not all health resources were created equal. Some are better than others.

I see we have built a farm - why? I do not remember any discussion about it. What is its purpose?

 

[Yamps]

Not all health resources were created equal. Some are better than others.

I see we have built a farm - why? I do not remember any discussion about it. What is its purpose?

Yeah, that farm is clearly a mistake, we will never use it. I saw it too but didn't mention it.

Health
You are full of subtle hints! I'll go and think now, what do we want more: crabs or clam? Btw, do we want to trade the second crab or keep it for tribute?

EDIT: Ok, they are the same, crabs & clams according to civopedia...Harbor gives +1 health for both of them and most importantly, we can't have clams for crabs in the game. Do you mean we should give deer for clams because of the +1 Harbor bonus? But Harbor comes late. Don't understand this.

Diplo
I feel that you also had a subtle hint on your mind with that diplo info before. I have a question: how does PA change all that? Votes are for an alliance, I think that relations that our PA partner has with other civs also matter. This is based on a test game experience.

 

[marconos]

Few things:

Farm mistake, those sheep should be improved now (extra health + growth) and we should be hooking up the silver for the additional happiness. Using the worker for exploration does not seem like a good idea to me. We need that silver hooked up and those sheep connected.

Trading / Revolution: There is no point in sitting on Alphabet, IMO we have to trade it now. Elizabeth has it and will trade it away and we need to get what we can. We should hit the revolution now and get that extra research. We will be at the happiness cap and should be using a scientist to maximize the amount of research to make sure that we get the GL. Revolution immediately after Alpha and trade fast.

Build Order: Scout, we need fast exploration and we need the sheep and silver connected, can't spare sending the worker IMO. Then we have to get some archers made. We are too weak ATM and need to get some strength or we are going to get attacked.

Of course, I could be 100% wrong on everything that I just said

 

[vra379971]

Actually, that farm wasn't a mistake, and I suppouse it was my idea. Not going into it to much, but in order to use a few worker turns between quarry and road done and the arrival of the next tech, we work that tile and get an extra gold coin to help with early research, instead of working the forest/grassland to the right of the capital, and not getting any shiny coin. So, in sum, it had a benefit when it was made, and it's now served it's purpose.

And, I must thank Yamps for posting those screenshots, and I will ask all players do so after their turns are done. We've a one city empire folks, won't be hard...

NOTICE: Unless anyone objects I am going to request...kcd_swede to play two turns right now and report back with Alphabet. Our dicussions should take quite a different path then. Or mabye not at all.

 

[marconos]

I'm fine with the two turns and discuss. Question on posting the images -- how do you get them to link in your posts? I have tried and can't get them to show up. Also were do you host your images? On this site? I don't have anywhere to host them.

 

[Morganknight]

some thoughts:

what do we think about potential PA's?

Isabella - In her favor, she is not adjacent to us and she is the founder of Buddhism which has already been adopted by many of the folks we have already met. Her favored civic is Police State, which may be unfortunate...but does this mean she will favor researching the fascism tech which allows PA's in the first place and trade it to us?

Asoka - current points leader but the founder of an unpopular religion at the moment. He also is not adjacent. His favored civic is Universal Suffrage.

Washinton - Universal Suffrage

Elizabeth - Free Religion

Toku - Mercantilism

On a side note, Bismarck, Cyrus, Julius Caesar and Napoleon all favor Representation, a civic we are likely to keep for the entire game. Someone said something about it being impossible to create a PA with Napoleon...

I will be the first to admit I don't know a damn thing about PA's, but it seems like we know for sure we want one and we should have some sort of discussion before we irrevokably lose any chance we have of forming one.

---

On another note, we need to build some archers as soon as the library is finished, perhaps two or three before we start the GL. We are seriouslly hanging with our ass in the wind. I also agree that we should convert to Representation once our library is finished, but if we can score a coup and get Monotheism from Asoka first and or Bronzeworking from someone else, we may be able to adopt Slavery and/or Organized Religion as well in one fell swoop...If it can be done (it will require some fancy footwork) we should try...

 

[vra379971]

We should choose our PA depending on whom ever is the best late-game civ techer/builder - after making sure their production is high of course.

And, I'm up for Archers as well after Libiary.

 

[shikhee]

Sorry, I don't think I quite understand your argument. My reasoning still applies to all the races within the game, such as the race to the GLib.

I think what Balbes is suggesting is to lay of ANY revolt until we have discovered Literacy. As soon as Library is built use Scientists to hold back growing to far, get Literacy, then Revolt (for Rep and Slavery, I think is still 1 turn).

That is IF getting Literacy first is our immediate goal, this should be the fastest way to do so. but IF building GL before any other civs is in question (I didn't get that impression from discussion or test games) then Revolt before trading Literacy (and thus anytime we can revolt with Rep and Slavery together for maximum growth is the best option).

I also agree about building Archers next (1-2, we will have enough time to build another 2 with production and whipping unless they have horses) because Elizabeth and Washington will be unhappy with our cultural border squashing their cities.

 

[Melior Traiano]

I think we should have the worker pre-chop some forests to rush GL. Liz already has Alphabet, she might make a run for GL herself.

 

[Yamps]

Few things:

Farm mistake, those sheep should be improved now (extra health + growth) and we should be hooking up the silver for the additional happiness. Using the worker for exploration does not seem like a good idea to me. We need that silver hooked up and those sheep connected.

Trading / Revolution: There is no point in sitting on Alphabet, IMO we have to trade it now. Elizabeth has it and will trade it away and we need to get what we can. We should hit the revolution now and get that extra research. We will be at the happiness cap and should be using a scientist to maximize the amount of research to make sure that we get the GL. Revolution immediately after Alpha and trade fast.

Build Order: Scout, we need fast exploration and we need the sheep and silver connected, can't spare sending the worker IMO. Then we have to get some archers made. We are too weak ATM and need to get some strength or we are going to get attacked.

Of course, I could be 100% wrong on everything that I just said

Sheep & silver
That's in 2 turns, we don't know AH yet. Silver is hooked now.

Exploration
We don't have the time for a scout! This is now really a must, worker exploration. We can only trade with Isabella, Asoka and Washington now. We need more civs, and we want to trade with the ones less advanced first. Low GNP is a good indicator. Note that Washington has improved the winery, he has monarchy already. Look at the GNP graph, only Isabella has low GNP. We need those backward civs yesterday.

Besides, we have enough tiles to work on right now.


Alpha trading
Liz won't trade it, but we can't trade it to her and she might be going for Literature so we have to hurry.

Revolution right now actually doesn't feel optimal anymore. Waiting for the library seems better in this position.

Defense
Don't think we will be attacked. AI's are cautious with us and have annoyed relations with Toku mostly. Second, Washington still only has archers and he isn't aggressive either.

@Farm
We have used that farm instead of the stone quarry actually if I understood it right. Wasn't stone better? Or maybe not, we do have Alpha one turn earlier than expected!

 

[Yamps]

I think what Balbes is suggesting is to lay of ANY revolt until we have discovered Literacy. As soon as Library is built use Scientists to hold back growing to far, get Literacy, then Revolt (for Rep and Slavery, I think is still 1 turn).

That is IF getting Literacy first is our immediate goal, this should be the fastest way to do so. but IF building GL before any other civs is in question (I didn't get that impression from discussion or test games) then Revolt before trading Literacy (and thus anytime we can revolt with Rep and Slavery together for maximum growth is the best option).

I also agree about building Archers next (1-2, we will have enough time to build another 2 with production and whipping unless they have horses) because Elizabeth and Washington will be unhappy with our cultural border squashing their cities.

Well, Balbes isn't going to tell us what to do, remember? We have to think for ourselves. He said this:

Regarding the happy cap: it is highly recommended to hire 2 scientists right after the library completes. Will Beijing still outgrow its happy cap before Alphabet?

Has anybody examined the other civs' offers for resource trades?

Rushing for Literacy and GL is one rush. We do have to rush it, there were civs with Literacy in test games after Alpha trades before the GL was in the work queue. Maybe a revolution after the library? Or not?

@Image hosting: I used an external server
@Kcd_Swede: he is back from vacation?
@Worker still has the time to come back and work, we will use the stone tile right after the growth next turn. That's a lot of time till next city growth. He can come back in time for the chop also if needed.

 

[vra379971]

Oi? Vacation?

I must have missed that one. Okay, well skip him and move down the roster.