SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
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acidsatyr
be water my friend...
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@Acidsatyr
Please turn on the HOF option that shows turn timer. I have a better feeling if you say on what turn things happen. Btw, are you starting with turn 0 or turn 1? Also note that if you see a Wonder built on say turn 41, if you check the event log it states the turn it was actually built, turn 40.
Anyway, I'll go now and make us a new test map!
It doesn't matter, Ill just play first few turns once we all agree on certian things..so yeah doesn't matter if i start at 0 or 1.
i guess settling on turn 0 makes sense.
Morganknight
Warlord
Balbes
Instigator
Is there a clear possibility of actually getting attacked and having to fight?
I should mention that promotions and walls are not factored into your power rating, only units, and certain technologies, are.
Bronze Working and Iron Working both provide very strong boosts, each comparable to building 5 warriors or 3 archers.
Here's where testing becomes indespensable.
I suggest trying to answer these questions:
-What is the earliest date the Pyramids can be built?
-What is the earliest date Alphabet can be had?
-What if you try to optimize for the sum of early Pyramids and early Alphabet? What tradeoffs does it force you to make, and does the risk of losing the Pyramids increase sharply?
Starting at Turn 0 is the commonly accepted convention.
acidsatyr
be water my friend...
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This will be a fast paced game with research in first plan, full blown SE with caste system, possibly pacifism, combining the powers of Great library, and pyramids, rushing to liberalism, picking up best tech, etc. Getting those two wonders is essential. Getting pyramids for representation is probably the first and the last thing in this game that will net us a win (i really hope you are trying to help us win). So it's not a question of winning but how fast to do it. Missing pyramids is impossible. We get it in 2480 if i remember from our test games. None of other AI civs can optimize, not even on deity, so that they get it faster than that.
As for barraks, theres nothing better to be built at the time. Both barraks and walls provide some protection in case of an attack. I pretty sure brax+walls do count in power graph, but i might as well be wrong here. I know certain techs counts as soldiers, etc. I don't think that's relevant at this point.
As for barraks, theres nothing better to be built at the time. Both barraks and walls provide some protection in case of an attack. I pretty sure brax+walls do count in power graph, but i might as well be wrong here. I know certain techs counts as soldiers, etc. I don't think that's relevant at this point.
Yamps
Deity
Ok people, testing time! 
Check out the new testgame!
[P.S. I hate that river tool...]
power graph
The Inner Workings of the Demographics Screen Explained by Robi D
"(For Vanilla 1.74)
2000 soldiers- Walls, Castles, Dry dock, Forge, Factory
4000 soldiers- Barracks, Mt. Rushmore, Red Cross, Iron works
8000 soldiers- Heroic Epic, Chichen Itza, Scotland Yard, West Point"
Turn timer
Ok turn 0, or turn 1 more or less. But when you say GL 900 BC I don't have a feeling how late that is. When you say turn 79, I understand it much better. Turn timer is a HOF 3 option, just a tick please.
Check out the new testgame!
[P.S. I hate that river tool...]
power graph
The Inner Workings of the Demographics Screen Explained by Robi D
"(For Vanilla 1.74)
2000 soldiers- Walls, Castles, Dry dock, Forge, Factory
4000 soldiers- Barracks, Mt. Rushmore, Red Cross, Iron works
8000 soldiers- Heroic Epic, Chichen Itza, Scotland Yard, West Point"
Turn timer
Ok turn 0, or turn 1 more or less. But when you say GL 900 BC I don't have a feeling how late that is. When you say turn 79, I understand it much better. Turn timer is a HOF 3 option, just a tick please.
Balbes
Instigator
Good!
Building those barracks will have a positive effect after all.
Another option is simply to build a few warriors. I can think of some interesting uses for them, a kind of an early warning system...
2480BC pretty much guarantees getting the Pyramids. I don't think the AIs build even the Stonehenge by then.
What was the average date they built the Pyramids in the test games?
Can you describe once more, in detail, the opening sequence that leads to the 2480BC Pyramids? What do you research, what tiles do you work, what do you build, what do your workers do.
In comparison to a more standard opening, is something sacrificed in favor of the super quick Pyramids?
acidsatyr
be water my friend...
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It has been posted already, check previous posts 
In summary -> Beijing builds worker first. Hunting->Masonry->Wheel. Beijing stays at size 3 working Deer camp (4f2h) + Stone (5h) + Marble (4h3c). No chopping.
Absolutely nothing is getting sacrificed by this, I couldn't find better opening than this.
In summary -> Beijing builds worker first. Hunting->Masonry->Wheel. Beijing stays at size 3 working Deer camp (4f2h) + Stone (5h) + Marble (4h3c). No chopping.
Absolutely nothing is getting sacrificed by this, I couldn't find better opening than this.
Early warrior warring+AI worker stealing is mostly Incas theme strategy. here we don't go for risky plan. We get 5 free units, so they shuold be archers rather than warriors this ealry.
acidsatyr
be water my friend...
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Guys, I remember seeing excel file here on forums which shows AI's affinity toward forming Permanent A and Defensive Pacts. Do you know what I'm talking aobut and can someone dig it up?
I played that test game again, actually finished it finally.
I won Space Race with PA around 1820ad. Probably should’ve been faster since I wasn't paying a lot of attention to details.
But key points were this:
Getting to PA as fast as possible with a friendly AI, and then combining research powers to launch as fast as possible. Once PA is formed, nobody is willing to attack you. But getting to PA while cultivating relations with most of civs so you can not waste your time defending is the key.
Cultural victory is out of the question.
Diplo victory is very hard to pull off. There will be other civs forming Pas as well.
Space victory with PA is probably the most sound way to do it. But micromanaging is what make 1750ad launch differ from one at 1820ad.
Conquest and domination is almost impossible, dominations needs both continents, and conquest takes a lot of time, both strategies shifting away from research which is dangerous.
At the final turn Beijing had 18 population, was running Rep. + Caste System + Envinronmentalism + Pacifism. It had no cottages, and was switching from purely production bursts to research bursts via scientists. It was getting around 900 beakers per turn. It kept 4 forests total.
Again the key is forming PA, combining research power and wining space race, while maintaining sound diplomacy throughout ages and avoiding wars. Sounds easy right? It is, we can do it!
If someone else can get a win some other way please post your findings.
I played that test game again, actually finished it finally.
I won Space Race with PA around 1820ad. Probably should’ve been faster since I wasn't paying a lot of attention to details.
But key points were this:
Getting to PA as fast as possible with a friendly AI, and then combining research powers to launch as fast as possible. Once PA is formed, nobody is willing to attack you. But getting to PA while cultivating relations with most of civs so you can not waste your time defending is the key.
Cultural victory is out of the question.
Diplo victory is very hard to pull off. There will be other civs forming Pas as well.
Space victory with PA is probably the most sound way to do it. But micromanaging is what make 1750ad launch differ from one at 1820ad.
Conquest and domination is almost impossible, dominations needs both continents, and conquest takes a lot of time, both strategies shifting away from research which is dangerous.
At the final turn Beijing had 18 population, was running Rep. + Caste System + Envinronmentalism + Pacifism. It had no cottages, and was switching from purely production bursts to research bursts via scientists. It was getting around 900 beakers per turn. It kept 4 forests total.
Again the key is forming PA, combining research power and wining space race, while maintaining sound diplomacy throughout ages and avoiding wars. Sounds easy right? It is, we can do it!
If someone else can get a win some other way please post your findings.
Balbes
Instigator
What about the fur camp? +5c is almost +50% research (8c Palace 3c marble) for a much quicker Alphabet.
Well, you are spending a lot of turns researching those 3 techs. They are not required for Alphabet and you could get them in trades instead.
That was "early warning"
When an AI civ starts preparing for war, it is useful to know who their target is.
acidsatyr
be water my friend...
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What about the fur camp? +5c is almost +50% research (8c Palace 3c marble) for a much quicker Alphabet.
Well, you are spending a lot of turns researching those 3 techs. They are not required for Alphabet and you could get them in trades instead.
That was "early warning"
Yes, but I am also not researching BW, AH, etc. Those turns are well worth for 2480bs pyramids and superb early production.
Hunting->masonry->wheel->fishing->pottery->writing->alphabet->poly->literature is the best path I have found.
Research will come from library scientists and representation; furs won't be worked at all since they are only 1f!
I tested several possible ways, and this seems to be the fastest to get to the Great Library at 925bc.
Don't get carried away with financial trait, it's a TRAP!
Balbes
Instigator
Production is only a means to an end. You are assuming that production is more important than research - why?
The Pyramids do not provide any immediate benefit by simply existing. You can switch to Representation earlier - provided you have the population and food for extra scientists - winning some beakers. But if you have had to research some extra techs for it, you have wasted some beakers to begin with, and it is not clear if you have gained or lost in total.
925BC and the completion of the GL look like a reasonable timespan for testing.
I believe you have played several games up to that point? You should be able to calculate the total amount of food, hammers, and beakers produced in the empire by 925BC. This should be easier than ever, because the empire, as such, only consists of 1 city.
So, you've got the numbers, bring em on!
Guys, I remember seeing excel file here on forums which shows AI's affinity toward forming Permanent A and Defensive Pacts. Do you know what I'm talking aobut and can someone dig it up?
I played that test game again, actually finished it finally.
I won Space Race with PA around 1820ad. Probably shouldve been faster since I wasn't paying a lot of attention to details.
But key points were this:
Getting to PA as fast as possible with a friendly AI, and then combining research powers to launch as fast as possible. Once PA is formed, nobody is willing to attack you. But getting to PA while cultivating relations with most of civs so you can not waste your time defending is the key.
Cultural victory is out of the question.
Diplo victory is very hard to pull off. There will be other civs forming Pas as well.
Space victory with PA is probably the most sound way to do it. But micromanaging is what make 1750ad launch differ from one at 1820ad.
Conquest and domination is almost impossible, dominations needs both continents, and conquest takes a lot of time, both strategies shifting away from research which is dangerous.
At the final turn Beijing had 18 population, was running Rep. + Caste System + Envinronmentalism + Pacifism. It had no cottages, and was switching from purely production bursts to research bursts via scientists. It was getting around 900 beakers per turn. It kept 4 forests total.
Again the key is forming PA, combining research power and wining space race, while maintaining sound diplomacy throughout ages and avoiding wars. Sounds easy right? It is, we can do it!
If someone else can get a win some other way please post your findings.
This sounds good!
I have tested the hunting>masonry>myst route and SH was built in a far away land in 2600BC. I agree that SH we don't need, esp since we have a mountain buffer. I should note that pyr was built in far away land around 1950BC. I had similar but not exact same map.
If we have decided Pyr is a priority, we should do it as fast as possible. I think we could even skip pyr and go straight to Lit/GL as Balbes brought up. But I am pretty confident we get both, and so will some of our human competetion.
I support acid's plans for the next few turns.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
So far the discussion does look good so far. On problem with the furs as I see them is that they are do not have enough food for us bu t the benefit of commerce cannot be overlooked, so it is a tricky issue to look at.
I believe we could skip fishing from that order... pick it up in a trade when we have alphabet. Also, I believe you will need to add Myst somewhere in that path to get to Poly.
don't really have anything to add... strategy so far sounds great (and I love reading it evolve! very exciting!).
I'm playing further through on the last test game uploaded, first time around I was taken out by Catherine just as I found Alphabet, second time 'round I offered some tribute (is there a downside to "giving" a resource that you don't really need and taking it back when you do ? otherwise I've found this to be the easiest way to appease). Napolean is pretty grumpy but the occasional offering has kept him in line and I've had no wars so far. I've been cultivating Catherine as my PA, she was the strongest early in the game, but now that I've met most across the sea she actually quite a bit behind now, might be possible to cuddle up to someone else though. I've just beelined to Liberalism but now not sure what my next major beeline should go... I also still don't have any religion (and I made sure to build roads to my neighbours very early), but haven't found it to be holding me back much.
I went with Fishing and a workboat, but in hindsight at the early game it did feel like I lagged a touch because of this and I had 3 pop by the time the workboat was out anyway.
Great work guys! (errr... Joes!)
I'm playing further through on the last test game uploaded, first time around I was taken out by Catherine just as I found Alphabet, second time 'round I offered some tribute (is there a downside to "giving" a resource that you don't really need and taking it back when you do ? otherwise I've found this to be the easiest way to appease). Napolean is pretty grumpy but the occasional offering has kept him in line and I've had no wars so far. I've been cultivating Catherine as my PA, she was the strongest early in the game, but now that I've met most across the sea she actually quite a bit behind now, might be possible to cuddle up to someone else though. I've just beelined to Liberalism but now not sure what my next major beeline should go... I also still don't have any religion (and I made sure to build roads to my neighbours very early), but haven't found it to be holding me back much.
I went with Fishing and a workboat, but in hindsight at the early game it did feel like I lagged a touch because of this and I had 3 pop by the time the workboat was out anyway.
Great work guys! (errr... Joes!)
Yamps
Deity
We are having a nice discussion here!
I suggest we don't hurry with game play yet, we have shifted strategies a lot. With timezones and everything, please allow for some time for more players to join the testing.
@Pyramids
My Pyramids times in test games: ~40-47 turns after start. That's around 2200 BC-2400 BC. I missed it once on turn 44. If we go after them, we should hurry.
If we take SH & Pyramids, we need BW before hunting. (Old masonry-wheel-mysticism-BW plan). We are a bit slower with growth, but the GP is born and settled earlier. We could still take GL. I'll test this, don't have the time right now. GL 900 BC is pretty early, in a test game I've played before I built it 20 turns later.
@Tech trading
Acid, what did you take early on? What about WFYBTA? That kicked in a bit after 10 trades in my games. I then decided to only ask for key techs in other games. I've traded for ~20 of them in a game played till 1200 AD. (~180 turns of play)
I suggest we don't hurry with game play yet, we have shifted strategies a lot. With timezones and everything, please allow for some time for more players to join the testing.
@Pyramids
My Pyramids times in test games: ~40-47 turns after start. That's around 2200 BC-2400 BC. I missed it once on turn 44. If we go after them, we should hurry.
If we take SH & Pyramids, we need BW before hunting. (Old masonry-wheel-mysticism-BW plan). We are a bit slower with growth, but the GP is born and settled earlier. We could still take GL. I'll test this, don't have the time right now. GL 900 BC is pretty early, in a test game I've played before I built it 20 turns later.
@Tech trading
Acid, what did you take early on? What about WFYBTA? That kicked in a bit after 10 trades in my games. I then decided to only ask for key techs in other games. I've traded for ~20 of them in a game played till 1200 AD. (~180 turns of play)
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