SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[classical_hero]

Preturn. I move the farm to the coast. I cancel the deal of Silver for Incense as we discussed further. I did not trade this right away until we have used up our Anarchy. I also trade with Izzy of Horseback riding for Drama +60 I press enter.

Turn 1. Izzy now wants Silver from us. I reject it and now we are at a zero relationship with her. We have built an archer and I start on a catapult. We get Sir Isaac Newton and I settle him. I revolt to Judaism and we are now in one turn of Anarchy.

Turn 2. Izzy rejects our OB treaty. Lizzy used her GA to expand her culture of Nottingham. I revolt to Pacifism

Turn 3. We get two trade offers from civs I reject them since they do not offer us anything good right now. I could have recieved Music and golf for Philo and another offer of MC and more gold for CS. We are now out of anarchy. I traded Silver to JC for two I tried the trick with trading trick with Fred, but unfortunately he is in deficit spending and thus we are losing the gained money. I should have done it while we still had positive gold.

Turn 4. Turn four I bribe JC into converting to Judaims and I also get Metal Casting and Monotheism, thus starting the sell off of CS and Philo. It should be still long enough for us to get Liberalism We are getting WFYABTA from Asoka. I get Feudalism and Compass off Huayna Cupac. Only him and Cathy were willing to trade for anything beside Paper for those two techs, which is why I chosse him. I trade LIt to Toku for 50 gold and then I trade CS and 30 to Cathy for Music. I did all this so that JC would not trade away CS to others for free, without us getting something in return. I just hope that I did the right thing here. So for trading away CS and at Philo we got MC, Mono, Feud, Comp, and Music. I think that is reasonable.

Turn 5. We have a few more tech available for trade. We can get Machinery and Theology and 20 off Kublai for Feudalism Music and CS. I would take it, but I putting this up for others before we move on.

Here is the save so you can see what is on offer. http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/Unusual_Suspects_SG007_AD0050_01.Civ4SavedGame

Here is the log of the turns so far.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 50 BC to 50 AD:

Turn 113, 50 BC: You have discovered Horseback Riding!
Turn 113, 50 BC: Isaac Newton has been born in Beijing!

Turn 114, 25 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 114, 25 BC: SGOTM07 converts to Judaism!
Turn 114, 25 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 114, 25 BC: St. Peter has been born in a far away land!
Turn 114, 25 BC: Rene Descartes has been born in a far away land!

Turn 115, 1 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 115, 1 AD: SGOTM07 adopts Pacifism!
Turn 115, 1 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Vassalage!
Turn 115, 1 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Serfdom!
Turn 115, 1 AD: Bi Sheng has been born in a far away land!
Turn 115, 1 AD: Asoka adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 116, 25 AD: Julius Caesar converts to Judaism!
Turn 116, 25 AD: You have discovered Metal Casting!
Turn 116, 25 AD: You have discovered Monotheism!
Turn 116, 25 AD: You have discovered Feudalism!
Turn 116, 25 AD: You have discovered Compass!
Turn 116, 25 AD: You have discovered Music!
Turn 116, 25 AD: The Kong Miao has been built in a far away land!

 

[kcd_swede]

I can't open the save from here, but I'll look at it from another computer in a few hrs. I like the Mach+Theo trade with Kublai, but I am looking at old relations and I don't know how all your trading may have changed it. Hopefully, KK is still nobody's worst enemy, though Liz and Fred won't like it they shouldn't get too ticked off. But I'll have a look later, like I said.

 

[Yamps]

Well, this was interesting!

I have some constructive critics. I think I have a talent for that.

Resources

You could have given Izzy the silver, we had Furs for the trade. At the point you refused we actually had yet another silver for the trade. However, Liz took the iron and silver on the next turn. Izzy will hate us anyway, so that was a good move actually.

What happened with Fred? Did you try giving him 1gpt or 2 gpt right away? However, you didn't have to sell the silver for only 2gpt to JC! There was a way. We can do it now with HC, he has 2 gold for trade. Sell the second crab to HC, we don't need it. Many civs don't have the Fur, we'll sell that later. Lower the science rate first to 90%, that will enable 6 gold for our bribing tactics. Try to feed Capac, 1gpt at the time. Set back research to 100% when you are done, we can afford some deficit. We'll cancel the free gold very soon anyway.

Trading
Why did you take Monotheism from JC? That wasn't planned. I'm questioning the HR trade too actually, who came up with that? Anyway, WFYBTA limits were close, it was unavoidable. First, here is the status report after the trade orgies:

Liz 17/18 (!) Well, Liz won't tolerate this brokering behavior much more.

Hey, maybe they ad iDeclareWarOnTechWhore one day into the code, wouldn't that be funny?

Fred 8/12
Kublai 8/12
Cathy 5/18

Everybody else: reached limit!

However, Washington, Capac and us have low enough score for more trades! They still want to trade. You should take advantage of that. There is another thing going for us as well: score leaders are Jewish, when they get friendly with us, they will start trading again. There will be some civs from the other continent willing to trade with us as well. Besides, if we decide to tech fast for the space win, we probably won't need to trade anyway.

Turn 5. We have a few more tech available for trade. We can get Machinery and Theology and 20 off Kublai for Feudalism Music and CS. I would take it, but I putting this up for others before we move on.

We also want Optics and Guilds, Machinery unlocks that. (Engineering also.)There is the Washington conversion plan too. Have you been checking tech prices? Washington almost researched Philosophy, he will only give 90 gold + map for it. I'm considering converting Kublai too. Washington we do need: we don't want an annoyed neighbor with a stack of LB. LB upgrade to rifleman, that's not far away and we don't even have iron anymore. If we get Washington, we won't have much to worry anymore.

We could use Kublai too. He likes JC now, but negative relations will kick in later because of religion and Representation, Kublai likes Monarchy. JC is a prime PA candidate, Cathy is leading in power and JC likes us a lot. Kublai is blocked by JC, we don't want our PA partner to have problems. For example, Isabella is weak and JC could declare. We could join the war for the mutual war bonuses. We don't want Kublai to back-stab. Two more missionaries are needed, techs we have for bribery.

Here are the trade suggestions:

• Give Philosophy to Washington for nothing. This will probably get him to pleased.
• Fred doesn't have Compass, meaning he doesn't have Optics. Get Machinery from him and Optics from somebody else. (Compass + CS for Machinery + 70 gold)
• Convert Washington on the next turn, do a trade with him at the same time. Preferably, get Optics if he has it or Guilds.
• We can bribe Kublai with techs later to convert him too.

Things are looking fine, good job there!

 

[kcd_swede]

Hi, I've seen the save. Looking good. I agree with Yamps. Hope the aggr trading with HC works. I don't see who we will get optics from, but I guess we'll see thatafter mach. Keep up the good work.

 

[marconos]

Sounds like you have things under control. I like all the trading going on, it just felt like we were waiting too long for me.

Glad the conversion of JC worked. IMO we need to get 1 - 2 caravals(sp) out to find the other continent and the people over there.

 

[classical_hero]

One reason I got Mono from JC is that I wanted to get as much out of him as possible. i did not just want to convert him and gift him CS without seeing what techs he would give in return and that was the best deal I could get.

 

[kcd_swede]

How much farther will you take it? To Liberalism? Let me know when I can expect to be up, so I can try to plan a rapid response with a plan etc. Real life ,ight interfere, otherwise. Sveriges nationaldag today! Heja Sverige!

 

[Yamps]

One reason I got Mono from JC is that I wanted to get as much out of him as possible. i did not just want to convert him and gift him CS without seeing what techs he would give in return and that was the best deal I could get.

Generally it is best not to take the best deal. AI will often chip in cheep techs, it is usually best not to accept that because of the WFYBTA.

How much farther will you take it? To Liberalism? Let me know when I can expect to be up, so I can try to plan a rapid response with a plan etc. Real life ,ight interfere, otherwise. Sveriges nationaldag today! Heja Sverige!

Heja Sverige!

Yeah, RL, familly, stuff, EURO 2008...

Classical_hero, take us to Education. Hope you will post soon to make it easier for kcd_swede. Kcd_swede, try to play it all out during the weekend.

 

[vra379971]

HELLAS! HELLAS!

Yeah, that gives you an idea of who I want to win...

Question. Does anyone want to chase down the Sistine Chapel? Unless its been built...we do have Music now, and we have cultural pressure...and frankly, I don't like not having iron.

 

[Yamps]

Schedule
Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of April 24.

Please try to complete this game within three months of the start date.

The deadline is July 24. This isn't that strict probably, but let's be polite and finish things on time. We have a month and a half roughly.

We are on turn 117 right now. I expect us to finish in 100-150 turns. We'll have to evaluate our winning options again very soon. I think that Domination is possible, but that would be hard and tedious and quite probably slower than Space!

Some Domination thoughts (rough estimates)

• Our continent looks big enough on its own. (Tile count volunteer needed! )
• AI will have infantry mostly.
• Tanks don't give enough bombarding, we would need artillery too.
• War should be finished on several fronts at the same time, step by step won't work. Pushing straight into the continent would be the way.
• Some cities should be razed, some left with one defender for our PA to take it.
• We would need a total of 50-80 tanks and artillery. We wouldn't need other units, maybe few supporting marines.
• We should be able to almost produce a unit/turn.
• At some point we would have to stop down all research and start accumulating money for the war effort. Our PA partner will keep researching, but we can direct the path and their pace too if we take the money from them.

When we expect to win with Space? How much time for Domination? Something to think about.

Back door Diplo
I don't actually believe in this for this game, but here is an interesting trick to use.

Requirements:

• highest population (that would be our population combined with the PA partner, I will check this)
• GE
• civ that nobody likes, preferably with wonder building habits.
• a lot of friends
• spy is useful, but not needed
• open borders with the above mentioned civ (bribery is a good thing )

Mechanics:

• send a GE to the civs land
• hurry the foreign wonder yourself! Yes, yourself, no gifting at all.
• spy would be used to see when the civ starts building the UN, but GE can see it too! GE can be used as a spy to see what the foreign city is producing! Only open borders are needed.
• when the hated civ builds the UN, all friends will vote for us.
• Mass media beeline and gifting it for total control can be used too.
• I've tried all this and won the game! (not OCC PA, haven't tested yet)

 

[Yamps]

HELLAS! HELLAS!

Yeah, that gives you an idea of who I want to win...

Nah, Greece vs Sweden, June10th. I'm putting my money on Sweden.

Question. Does anyone want to chase down the Sistine Chapel? Unless its been built...we do have Music now, and we have cultural pressure...and frankly, I don't like not having iron.

Sistine has been built in England. We will get the GA again, use of bombs authorized. Although I would like to keep Nottingham alive and take the iron too. That city is protecting us from overseas invasions. Iron tile is at 54% percent for England, we will take it soon probably without bombing.

 

[marconos]

We should be okay without having to do a culture bomb. Just check the % each turn for the next 10 turns. That will tell us if it's going to flip back to us or not. I believe it will as a one time bomb <> consistent culture increases as we have in our city.

I really want to wrap up the liberalsim race and see if we get it or not.

Victory Options
Diplomacy isn't going to happen, lets just accept that and move on
Space race --- I don't understand how this actually would be quicker then a military victory, espcially if we don't have to go to the other continent. Most of the other countries only have 1 - 2 cities. Using that as a model, we take 2 cities for our PA partner and he drastically goes up in production/research power. I really think a military would be pretty quick ... again assuming we can get enough tiles from our continent.

 

[classical_hero]

Middle of Turn five. I tried the gifting the gold the HC for getting some extra gold for the crabs, but I gave him 3 and he still only got to 2 back from him, so it does not look like that trick is working. I gifted Philo to Washington and then Ai asked him to convert to Judaism and he is, so that makes another religious friend. Traded with Fred CS and Compass for Machinery and 70

Turn 6. Someone has circumnavigated the world. I assume Cathy. A GA is founded in Rome. With our discovery of Machinery I see that Cathy also has Engineering and Optics, so I think it is bets not to trade with her right now. It looks like that Kublai is the best person to trade with for Optics since he is the least advanced of the civs that have optics so we can give away techs that we have already traded SO I trade CS and 40 for Optics. I build a Cata and start on a Jewish Missionary so that we can convert Kublai to Judaism and have another friend. Also great news that we are now no longer the least powerful civ, that is now Izzy.

Turn 7. Not much happened on this turn. We have hit the WFYABTA for JC now, but soon we will be friendly with hi, so we can have that reopen again.

Turn 8. I get an offer from Lizzy to stop trading with Alex. I think we only have a OB treaty with him so I dare not risk hurting our friendship with her so I agree to her demands. I hope this is the correct decision. Also now Alex does not want to talk to us, so we need to be careful of him now. The good news is that he would have to come through bothLizzy and Washington, since he does not have OB with either of them. I also got a tribute request from Cathy for Paper, I reject this offer. We need to be careful of Cathy also. We build a Missionary and send toward Kublai and Karakorum and another is started.

Turn 9. I checked the techs and we see that LIzzy has Guilds, which means we should be free to get Liberalism, which is good news.

Turn 10. We still have the monopoly on Paper, so it is looking very good for Liberalism now. I chopped down a forest that was outside of our BFC and it was near NY, so we do not lose any which is why I chose to do that. Other than that our worker has been building roads, since that is all that can be done.

Turn 11. We are one turn away from getting Education. Once we get it we can get a University and Oxford and thus greatly increasing our Science output. HC now has two more so once we can, we need to redo that deal and get more gold from him.

turn 12. We get Education. We have only 8 turns until Liberalism and this means that we can get Astro very soon. SO do we trade away Paper now? I ahve rejected two trade for paper, one was from Lizzy for Theo and 170 and the other was from Washington for Theo, 90 and his World map. I have done some MM and we can get Liberalism in 7 turns by using the other farm on to the coast and it becomes faster.

Here is our city as it is right now. Remember that this is done after the save, so someone needs to remember to change it to the coast when they start up the game again.

Here is the log for the turns.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 50 AD to 200 AD:

Turn 117, 50 AD: Washington converts to Judaism!
Turn 117, 50 AD: You have discovered Machinery!
Turn 117, 50 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Beijing. Work has now begun on Jewish Missionary.
Turn 117, 50 AD: Valmiki has been born in Rome!
Turn 117, 50 AD: A distant Civilization has circumnavigated the Globe!

Turn 118, 75 AD: You have discovered Optics!
Turn 118, 75 AD: Washington adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 118, 75 AD: Washington adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 118, 75 AD: Virgil has been born in Karakorum!
Turn 118, 75 AD: Catherine adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 118, 75 AD: Catherine adopts Serfdom!

Turn 119, 100 AD: You have trained Jewish Missionary in Beijing. Work has now begun on Jewish Missionary.
Turn 119, 100 AD: Hanno has been born in London!

Turn 120, 125 AD: Antony van Leeuwenhoek has been born in a far away land!
Turn 120, 125 AD: St. Paul has been born in a far away land!

Turn 121, 150 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 36 ? for Beijing.
Turn 121, 150 AD: You have trained Jewish Missionary in Beijing. Work has now begun on a Harbor.

Turn 122, 175 AD: You have discovered Education!
Turn 122, 175 AD: Gottfried Leibniz has been born in Beijing!
Turn 122, 175 AD: Isabella adopts Vassalage!
Turn 122, 175 AD: Isabella adopts Serfdom!

Here is the save. http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/Unusual_Suspects_SG007_AD0200_01.Civ4SavedGame

 

[kcd_swede]

OK, I got the save. Looking good. I'll remember to change to coast for Liberalism in 7.
Plans (start with the easy stuff):
Worker: build roads on forests and tiles that have no chance of growing forest.
City build queue: Univ(8)>Oxford U(?)
Tech tree: Liberalism in 7 to take Astro; then Nationalism(10)>Mil Trad (13) or should I trade for Nat if available? Or are we going Theo>Div Right for Taj then Nat?
Civics: stay in Rep/Bureau/CS/Decentr/Pacif. at least until Oxf built and probably then some.
Trade: cancel gift golds asap (5 turns approx)
Diplo: Threats are Izzy(-6), Toku(-3), Cathy(-4), Alex(-3); PA target#1 JC (+7) Watch for WHEOOHRN--there is none now but Alex won't talk so potentially he could be.

Questions: Should I look for trades of Edu when I am 2 turns from Lib? What should I try hardest to get? I should avoid cheap techs for WFYABTA. Do we want Theo for sth (paper and/or music for example) and when?

What should I do if asked to go to war on Izzy by JC (not at war yet but could come). Should I grant JC anything he asks for that won't risk the Lib and Mil Trad races? What about if they do? Should I appease the 4 risk civs if they ask for trib or stop tradings? Which civs do I prioritize to not offend (besides JC)?

And how far should I take us? I'm figuring to play to Liberalism (7turns) then save and team can re-evaluate. I can play pretty much right away. I'll wait until at least 12hrs AND one or more of you think my plan is ok to start on. Would be nice if capt concurred during this interval.

Let me know-I'm rarin' to go!

 

[Ankka]

I always end up in a situation unplanned when joining an SG.

Currently my summer vacation has suddenly ended up being pretty full of away-from home activities, which is great, except that I really don't have the time to contribute to this game anymore, especially with the amounts of posts you guys make.

I'm unofficially resigning.

 

[Yamps]

roster:

1 - marconos
2 - classical_hero - Just played!
3 - kcd_swede - UP!
4 - Melior Traiano - On Deck!
5 - Morganknight
6 - shikhee
7 - Yamps

8 - Ankka (unofficially resigned)
9 - vra379971 (save opening problems)

10 - Balbes (lost contact)

Middle of Turn five. I tried the gifting the gold the HC for getting some extra gold for the crabs, but I gave him 3 and he still only got to 2 back from him, so it does not look like that trick is working.

You should have stopped after the first gold you gave him. There was no increasement in his offer, it stayed at 2 gold. Sometimes this happens.

Turn 8. I get an offer from Lizzy to stop trading with Alex. I think we only have a OB treaty with him so I dare not risk hurting our friendship with her so I agree to her demands. I hope this is the correct decision. Also now Alex does not want to talk to us, so we need to be careful of him now.

Dangerous decision. Relations with Lizzy were fine, we are now worst enemies to Alex. However, there is a probability that AI will declare war when one refuses the demand. Liz has a backstabbing personality, I would have to check the personality file for exact numbers.

Turn 9. I checked the techs and we see that LIzzy has Guilds, which means we should be free to get Liberalism, which is good news.

I don't quite understand the argument.

All in all, good work Classical_Hero!

 

[Yamps]

I don't have much time now to analyze everything. I'll be out of town soon and won't be online for the next 24h. I'll ask Melior Traiano to take a closer look on things while I'm gone.

War danger - we have to watch closely what Cathy plans, she is annoyed with us. However, she won't stop trading techs ever, according to the personality file. That's good to know. (Bad relations won't cause her to stop, WFYBTA for example still applies)

WFYBTA limits

Liz 19/18 However, she still wants to trade. This means that I've made a miscount or she has forgotten about a trade or two, that is possible. She is near the limit.

Fred 9/12
Kublai 9/12
Cathy 7/18

Trades

Theology we don't need at all, Guilds open Banking and Gunpowder. Don't trade Paper yet, we could only get Theology. We will want Guilds, Banking and Engineering a bit later.

Tech path

Theology-Divine right path is useless. We want to research Nationalism for the Taj Mahal. Astronomy is the desired tech, but if AI discovers Nationalism soon we have to reconsider. Watch the techs AI have.

Golden age strategy
Sadly, GA doesn't give +100% GPP in Vanilla. There is a bonus in commerce and production. We should emphasize production during the GA and build big things then.

Production order
Exact order demands more consideration. Some things to build:

• Harbor (We've lost the fish too! However, the tile is only at 52% for England. Iron is at 53%, indicating a decrease of 1%/5 turns)
• reserve Missionary for Kublai (Capac and JC could ask him to convert, we would have to bribe him to get attitude to pleased first)
• University
• Caravel
• Forge
• Taj Mahal
• Observatory
• Oxford

What's the right order? I'm not sure. This is a question for everybody.

Tech tree: Liberalism in 7 to take Astro; then Nationalism(10)>Mil Trad (13) or should I trade for Nat if available? Or are we going Theo>Div Right for Taj then Nat?
Civics: stay in Rep/Bureau/CS/Decentr/Pacif. at least until Oxf built and probably then some.

Nationalism is needed for Taj Mahal not Divine Right. You can't get Nationalism with trade, we should research it manually preferably. However, if AI discovers that before we get Liberalism, taking Nationalism as a free tech is a strong option to consider.

Civics are fine, no change. Next civic change should be free market. Trade routes are worth more than one free specialist. Pacifism is better than OR, too.

Questions: Should I look for trades of Edu when I am 2 turns from Lib? What should I try hardest to get? I should avoid cheap techs for WFYABTA. Do we want Theo for sth (paper and/or music for example) and when?

What should I do if asked to go to war on Izzy by JC (not at war yet but could come). Should I grant JC anything he asks for that won't risk the Lib and Mil Trad races? What about if they do? Should I appease the 4 risk civs if they ask for trib or stop tradings? Which civs do I prioritize to not offend (besides JC)?

Help him out people! These are questions for everybody.

The 2 turns were planned before. (One turn for Machinery and one for Optics for Education) However, we have Optics now! There are no offers yet, only Theology. Wait for more offers, we can wait with the trades. Protect the Paper monopoly too. Watch what AI will offer for our techs regularly to see if the AI is researching the same tech. Watch the WFYBTA too.

If JC declares war, report the situation. Kublai is important, it depends on his religion status what we will do.

Don't give Paper or Education for help or tribute. Friends will still be friends and enemies, well, enemies. On second thought, giving paper to Cathy at some point later could be useful. She is dangerous and important, we would like to have closer relations with her. However, we need to explore more, Cathy probably has enemies on the other continent. They will dislike us if we help Cathy! To soon for helping her, IMO.

Helping JC with Paper if he asks for it at some point is the right thing to do. We could give him Music now for example too, but that won't bring anything. We have reached the cap with trading bonuses I believe. (+4, I think that's a cap. This should be checked in the personality file)

And how far should I take us? I'm figuring to play to Liberalism (7turns) then save and team can re-evaluate. I can play pretty much right away. I'll wait until at least 12hrs AND one or more of you think my plan is ok to start on. Would be nice if capt concurred during this interval.

Wait a bit more because of the time zones. We have to wait for the Americans. Yes, post a quick report after Liberalism, we'll see then how much more.

 

[Yamps]

I always end up in a situation unplanned when joining an SG.

Currently my summer vacation has suddenly ended up being pretty full of away-from home activities, which is great, except that I really don't have the time to contribute to this game anymore, especially with the amounts of posts you guys make.

I'm unofficially resigning.

Sorry to hear that.

Well, you can still officially lurk and post your opinions. However, if you want to start looking at other teams' threads, you need to resign officially on the maintenance thread. You won't be able to post game-related opinions here in that case.

We should be okay without having to do a culture bomb. Just check the % each turn for the next 10 turns. That will tell us if it's going to flip back to us or not. I believe it will as a one time bomb <> consistent culture increases as we have in our city.

I really want to wrap up the liberalsim race and see if we get it or not.

It looks like we are gaining 1% every 5 turns, we'll get the tiles soon. Liberalism only 7 turns away now and they don't even have Paper yet.

Victory Options
Diplomacy isn't going to happen, lets just accept that and move on
Space race --- I don't understand how this actually would be quicker then a military victory, espcially if we don't have to go to the other continent. Most of the other countries only have 1 - 2 cities. Using that as a model, we take 2 cities for our PA partner and he drastically goes up in production/research power. I really think a military would be pretty quick ... again assuming we can get enough tiles from our continent.

Diplo is a loooong shot, of course.
Domination is something to evaluate. But look at the garrisons! 10 LB will become 10 infantries, deity AI upgrades practically for free. 50-80 units needed evaluation is an understatement. AI is not that *cough* efficient at war, we can't rely that much on our PA partner. Space is nice and clean.

 

[classical_hero]

I would say that getting Oxford ASAP is good since this will massively increase our science rate.

 

[kcd_swede]

OK, I will hold off until tomorrow (I'll check back here in about 12 more hours), hoping we get some consensus on build order and the rest. I prefer Oxford near the top. Waiting for forge or Taj GA delays this boost a long time, but if you guys think the caravel xploration/xtra missionary are worth the delay I see that as fine. I will do whatever the team agrees on, of course.

One additional thought... with paper, can we get Cathy's map, or does she need it too? It could speed up contact a great deal.

It sounds like Astro is still on for the free tech (the chicken being counted while still an egg?). Unless someone has Natl, in which case I stop 1 turn before Lib and check with the team before proceeding.

Production order as I understand it now:
Exact order demands more consideration. Some things to build:

Harbor (We've lost the fish too! However, the tile is only at 52% for England. Iron is at 53%, indicating a decrease of 1%/5 turns)
reserve Missionary for Kublai (Capac and JC could ask him to convert, we would have to bribe him to get attitude to pleased first)
University
Caravel
Oxford
Forge
Taj Mahal
Observatory

Don't worry, I won't take us far enough to get all that, but good to get this planning. Obviously if something freaky happens we re-evaluate.
Keep coming with the ideas. Who speaks with authority if their is difference of opinions?