SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[Mad Professor]

That would be great as it could help us in selecting a potential partner so we don't run into rrau's situation.


Religion can be a bit scary too, depending upon the distribution of religions and the locations of the civs. Played a bit last night with SCT's save. The religions were split on the continent between Hinduism and Judaism. I wanted to join the Hindu crowd but my immediate neighbors were in Judaism, not a healthy mix. .

I played SCT's save to just into the Ad years. Things were going well, but it was quite a bit easier because buddhism had spread widely, I adopted it, and only one civ on the continent (Napoleon) was anoher religion (confucian) and he attacked Hatty then got crunched by Hatty and Alex and Genghis. I didn't fight a single war. That would have been a problem for building things like the heroic epic, but it did allow me to concentrate on other things which was great.

The point I'm making is that luck will play a fair role in this one. The spread of religion and which AI's attack other AI's will make a pretty big difference to things in the BC years.

 

[Mad Professor]

Oh - the other lesson I learned was that diplomacy is critical. We need to have a clearly understood policy on that so whoever is playing the turnset knows what answers the other team members expect them to give to what requests.

 

[leif erikson]

Oh - the other lesson I learned was that diplomacy is critical. We need to have a clearly understood policy on that so whoever is playing the turnset knows what answers the other team members expect them to give to what requests.

I agree and this also goes for trade policy. Who do we favor in trading, to the extent it is possible.

This diplomacy thing is a strange beast. I played as well last night, SCT's save. Hinduism and Judaism were split on the continent. Thankfully, the civs nearest me were Hindu, so I adopted it. I was Pleased or Friendly with my fellow civs up until we met the other continent and then things started getting dicey. I had signed up for mutual wars with the Mongols and Hattie as my allies. Then, out of the blue, Nappy attacks and wipes me out (Rifles and Cannons, lots of them). I went back and checked the auto-save and found he was Friendly with Julius, who is on the other continent, and allied with him. So I went form Friendly to war in a turn. I replayed a portion and made peace with Julius and all was fine. I am left wondering if there is a trigger on the number of turns we can be at war with someone before our friends can become their allies and how to avoid this trap in the game?

It seems to me that the diplo ratings can change really quickly and that how we manage diplo relationships is going to be more difficult than I thought? Do we need a system to track what actions we know happen and what effect they have? From the time we "select" our target PA partner until it actually happens, we could see some real changes in attitudes. I am beginning to think we need to have a range of civs that we are targeting for PA?

 

[Mad Professor]

At what point does backdoor diplo and space race diverge?

I'd say they diverge some time after the PA is in place, and when the ally's war activities start slowing down eventual space race victory. I guess the ally would have to have about seven cities at least for optimum space race timing yes? A really large empire (anything vaguely close to domination) may be counter-productive. That would say to me that they diverge quite a ways before the domination - not very long after PA achieved...

Edit: Unless of course there is another civ who might beat us to space race, then warirng a bit longer would also serve the space race objective...

 

[rrau]

By the time I posted, I had already finished the game and didn't have an autosave from that time. My targeted partner that I wanted the PA with won with a space race.

[edit] I had 3 targets that game and ended up with my 3rd choice, Washington. Usually, he's good in late game, but he lagged techwise because he was culturally squeezed by his neighbors.

 

[ShannonCT]

I didn't fight a single war. That would have been a problem for building things like the heroic epic, but it did allow me to concentrate on other things which was great.

Avoiding war seems a good thing. Heroic Epic requires a 10XP unit. It should be easy to put a couple Cho-ko-nus in the stack of one our allies and cherry pick enemy units until one of them gets up to 10XP.

Oh - the other lesson I learned was that diplomacy is critical. We need to have a clearly understood policy on that so whoever is playing the turnset knows what answers the other team members expect them to give to what requests.

Yes, we should have a clear plan going into each turnset of how we will deal with requests from the AI. Players should also make sure they know how to call up the diplomacy screen and even to save the game before making a decision about an AI request. If the player is unsure, he/she can save and come back to the thread to discuss.

Then, out of the blue, Nappy attacks and wipes me out (Rifles and Cannons, lots of them). I went back and checked the auto-save and found he was Friendly with Julius, who is on the other continent, and allied with him. So I went form Friendly to war in a turn. I replayed a portion and made peace with Julius and all was fine. I am left wondering if there is a trigger on the number of turns we can be at war with someone before our friends can become their allies and how to avoid this trap in the game?

I'm looking forward to Gator's analysis of AI behavior. I seem to recall that some AI will never attack you when friendly and some will.

 

[rrau]

I definitely need to know how to save the game and call up the diploscreen when the AI makes a demand. If there's a way to do that, I'd love it. I hate that the AI demands something and I'm left guessing about what the relations are.

 

[ShannonCT]

I definitely need to know how to save the game and call up the diploscreen when the AI makes a demand. If there's a way to do that, I'd love it. I hate that the AI demands something and I'm left guessing about what the relations are.

My manual says:

F4 brings up diplo screen
Ctrl-S saves game

Remember the diplo screen has the Glance feature that lets you see how everyone feels about everyone else. If a player is unsure how to respond to a demand, he/she can call up the Glance screen, take a screenshot, save, and post in the thread for discussion.

 

[Cactus Pete]

CP checking in.

The level of interest on this team is off the charts. Regretably, I'll have little time to participate until very end of April. Do have some queries:

Would someone please PM me with an explanation of what 'backdoor diplo' means?

The probability and consequences of capturing a worker seem critical to me. Great if we can bring it off safely, but I thought that on Deity all the workers were accompanied by an archer. Have we tested this?

If there is no copper, does it make sense to research Iron Working early?

We have marble and forests, so what about going all out for the Oracle and/or the Pyramids, knowing that we will accumulate gold even if we fail?

Is AH worth researching early?

I know the strategy thread urged minimal tile improvements because they get pillaged, but the posts above suggest that was not a big problem in most (all?) cases. If that's true, then might it not be a good strategy to take the health hit later and immediately utilize the hammers from many of our forests (replacing them with cottages and eventually workshops) to gain early advantage that we could hopefully leverage?

 

[ShannonCT]

Would someone please PM me with an explanation of what 'backdoor diplo' means?

It involves conquering the AI that wont vote for you and using that conquered population to increase your vote in the UN.

The probability and consequences of capturing a worker seem critical to me. Great if we can bring it off safely, but I thought that on Deity all the workers were accompanied by an archer. Have we tested this?

Yes, I've tested it. Workers are not always accompanied by archers, especially early. Ideally, we'd steal a worker from an AI that we are not direct neighbors with. The borders of 2-3 AI will completely surround us quite quickly, and those borders can shield us from an attack from a more distant AI that we steal from. But it's not going to be easy to pull off in the first place, and it's not a huge benefit with the game being at normal speed.

If there is no copper, does it make sense to research Iron Working early?

Beelining for Alpha gets us IW pretty quickly and puts us in a lot better tech position overall, so hopefully we can avoid self-researching IW.

We have marble and forests, so what about going all out for the Oracle and/or the Pyramids, knowing that we will accumulate gold even if we fail?

I like Pyramids over Oracle. It's hard to beat the AI to Oracle and Myst-Poly-Preist is unnecessary for the Alpha beeline. Pyramids give the more valuable Engineer points and is a better long term wonder, especially combined with Great Library. I'd rather go for Mids right away than try for Oracle and then Mids and risk losing both.

Is AH worth researching early?

For horses? Chariots are weak in Vanilla.

If that's true, then might it not be a good strategy to take the health hit later and immediately utilize the hammers from many of our forests (replacing them with cottages and eventually workshops) to gain early advantage that we could hopefully leverage?

You're probably right. Chopping forests for the Mids, Great Library, etc is a good trade-off for the lost health. If we are aggressive in meeting and connecting to other civs, we can probably pick up a couple health resources.

 

[Mistfit]

Keep in mind that Defensive Pacts (DP) are not the only way to get into PA's. Shared wars work as well.. I found this quote in the Gauntlet thread:

You need 40 total turns of mutual war for the PA. They don't need to be consecutive though. And yes, that's better than a DP - it's faster than teching to MT and waiting 40 turns and you've already started on your conquest.

 

[leif erikson]

@SCT - Have you had any good fortune going for the mids? My experience has been the Oracle is completed around turn 37 to 42, the mids around turn 50 to 55. By the time I'm ready to push for mids, they are completed - this is not a high probability venture, imho. I have missed The Great Library by as little as one turn. I think TGL is doable but I think we have to skip Bronze Working to accomplish this as we have to get Lit fast enough? I'll see if I can play a few games tonight and see if I can find a process that will work?

On war, When you've tested, what kind of religion status did you have? My experience is that I can peacefully move through the years if I stay away from religion. Once I pick one, it nearly always leads to war, unless the continent is all one religion... It is the fastest way to gain that experience to build the Heroic Epic, or to get some common war time towards our 40 turns.

I would say that bee-lining Alphabet can be a fast way to get to Bronze Working.

I think I chopped 3 forests last night and, with Harbor, Lighthouse and Aqueduct, managed only 10 Health. Too much chopping will force us to use Farms instead of Cottages to keep enough food available. I did not find other sea food resources to be plentiful, or easily traded for. In fact, only one other civ had any and she kept yanking the supply every 10 turns or so.

 

[Cactus Pete]

It involves conquering the AI that wont vote for you and using that conquered population to increase your vote in the UN.

Thanks.

Yes, I've tested it. Workers are not always accompanied by archers, especially early. Ideally, we'd steal a worker from an AI that we are not direct neighbors with. The borders of 2-3 AI will completely surround us quite quickly, and those borders can shield us from an attack from a more distant AI that we steal from. But it's not going to be easy to pull off in the first place, and it's not a huge benefit with the game being at normal speed.

Are you suggesting, then, that it's just something to take advantage of if the opportunity arises while doing early exploration?



Beelining for Alpha gets us IW pretty quickly and puts us in a lot better tech position overall, so hopefully we can avoid self-researching IW.

Makes sense.

I like Pyramids over Oracle. It's hard to beat the AI to Oracle and Myst-Poly-Preist is unnecessary for the Alpha beeline. Pyramids give the more valuable Engineer points and is a better long term wonder, especially combined with Great Library. I'd rather go for Mids right away than try for Oracle and then Mids and risk losing both.

You don't lose completely, since you get the gold from hammers in your treasury at double the rate with a marble quarry. What about using the Oracle to get Alpha?

For horses? Chariots are weak in Vanilla.

I was thinking they might be helpful (if obtained very early) to capture workers and constrain/pillage neighboring AI's.

You're probably right. Wasn't advocating, just raising the issue. Chopping forests for the Mids, Great Library, etc is a good trade-off for the lost health. If we are aggressive in meeting and connecting to other civs, we can probably pick up a couple health resources.

GL would seem a no brainer, but other uses for the forest hammers is what I was suggesting we might not want to forego.

Forgot to ask how soon we should research Masonry.

 

[rrau]

I think in one game, I beelined to Archery, then masonry and then beelined to alpha. I didn't have a monopoly on alphabet, but was still able to get some good trades. Getting masonry early without a worker to hook up things, seems not very practical. At Deity, I think I'd want a couple archers before I'd get a worker out.

 

[DJMGator13]

My manual says:

F4 brings up diplo screen
Ctrl-S saves game

Remember the diplo screen has the Glance feature that lets you see how everyone feels about everyone else. If a player is unsure how to respond to a demand, he/she can call up the Glance screen, take a screenshot, save, and post in the thread for discussion.

Can you save the game, with an active unanswered demand? And yes the F4 key will take you to the advisor screen, with an active unanswered demand ( I just learned and used this in the HOF 40 game for the first time).

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Personally, I'm in favour of going Fishing->Wheel->Pottery->Hunting(just in time to get fur)->Writing->Alphabet.

The early Alphabet gives you better trading opportunities, e.g. you can get lots of techs by just trading away Writing.

Build workboats before workers since improved tiles don't give us a massive yield (like cows or irrigated corn would). We don't need masonry until we start building wonders, putting a mine on the hills is just as good for production.

The only downside is only having warriors until Alphabet is in.

Getting cash from an unfinished Pyramids isn't a real boost, since with one city you'll be researching at 100% anyway. Great Library is my wonder of choice .

I agree on the idea for a strict diplomacy plan.

I'm undecided about worker steal, the risk vs reward seems very high.

 

[DJMGator13]

Getting cash from an unfinished Pyramids isn't a real boost, since with one city you'll be researching at 100% anyway. Great Library is my wonder of choice .

But the Mids might allow us to match a "Favorite Civic" with a PA target. Also once the PA is signed you share the benefits of any active Wonders. So our partner could change government civics also.

I'm undecided about worker steal, the risk vs reward seems very high.

With only one city, we won't need too many workers. The civ that gives us the best or only opportunity to steal from may turn out to be who we want as our PA partner and we'll not overcome the DOW factor on them or the "you declared on our friend".

 

[leif erikson]

Just finished several test games. The mids are possible as I missed it by 1 turn in one game. But there is a problem. In going for the mids, I started research on Masonry and began production with a Worker, followed by two Warriors. Research then follows Wheel to hook Stone up and then Fishing, to build a Work Boat. Once the Work Boat is done, it is all Pyramids.

Our Power rating must be low as I was attacked in all my test games by Axe rushes, and they have a lot of them.

I was able to build Great Library fairly easily by holding Alphabet as long as possible (we had it monopoly). This makes Bronze late as I traded for it, but it can work out as long as we can hold it. Nappy was particularly nasty.

Going for mids is a pretty big risk!!

 

[DJMGator13]

I was Pleased or Friendly with my fellow civs up until we met the other continent and then things started getting dicey. I had signed up for mutual wars with the Mongols and Hattie as my allies. Then, out of the blue, Nappy attacks and wipes me out (Rifles and Cannons, lots of them). I went back and checked the auto-save and found he was Friendly with Julius, who is on the other continent, and allied with him. So I went form Friendly to war in a turn. I replayed a portion and made peace with Julius and all was fine. I am left wondering if there is a trigger on the number of turns we can be at war with someone before our friends can become their allies and how to avoid this trap in the game?

It seems to me that the diplo ratings can change really quickly and that how we manage diplo relationships is going to be more difficult than I thought? Do we need a system to track what actions we know happen and what effect they have? From the time we "select" our target PA partner until it actually happens, we could see some real changes in attitudes. I am beginning to think we need to have a range of civs that we are targeting for PA?

Sounds like this attack was prior to your PA, so it is a little different than what happened to me but the following can and does happen very often.

But I found a good article on the Vassal System in the War Academy. Apparently this type of action was very common prior to the 2.08 path.

*Prior to the v2.08 patch there was a tendency by the AI that when losing a war with the player, the AI would align itself with a Player-“friendly” Civ by becoming a Vassal and then drag a Civ, which the player may have been closely “allied” with, into war against the player. The v2.08 patch did not create some magic rule saying this can no longer happen just that the decision would be more thoughtfully evaluated by the AI. A good quick, rule of thumb is that one of the factors the AI is going to judge this decision by is: is your military power equal to, less than or significantly greater then, his and his new Vassal's military power. If your "Ally" thinks he could otherwise take you on and come out the better he is going to do it (and let's be blunt, so would you). Your "Ally" basically weights the decision like this: "Yeah, I'm friendly with the player, but is this too good an opportunity to pass up?"

That is exactly what happened in my game. I could have taken them as a vassal myself but wanted the full land value, not the half tile count of a vassal. Even with the PA signed the comparison for military power must have been made against me as a single civ not as the combined team.

 

[leif erikson]

Um, there is no vassal system in vanilla civ?