SGOTM 07 - Xteam

For domination, an important consideration when deciding on conquest order is whether Asoka is likely to keep or raze a city. I've found that the fewer tiles of a conquered city that will be taken by another AI's culture, the more likely Asoka is to keep the city. That means that he's more likely to keep cities that are next to his existing borders. This would speak in favor of starting the domination in the north, especially with Washington.

I don't see much use in Free Religion. We're already getting a 200% beaker bonus. The effective bonus on current beakers is only 3.3% for Free Religion. I like Theocracy much better. Only question is, revolt now, or get a double change with Free Market?
 
My point is not to stay in Free Religion ourselves but to get Asoka to adopt it so that religion in a city will ensure fast border expansion. My worry is that we could loose many turns waiting for border expansions in the cities Asoka capture last. Any other way we can ensure that this will not happen?
 
My point is not to stay in Free Religion ourselves but to get Asoka to adopt it so that religion in a city will ensure fast border expansion. My worry is that we could loose many turns waiting for border expansions in the cities Asoka capture last. Any other way we can ensure that this will not happen?
When you do your test game on Sunday, please keep an eye out for this. In the test game I played, HC always built a Theater first thing. If that happens in your test game as well, perhaps the AI are somehow programmed to consider cultural expansion after capture?

I agree that if we can get Asoka into free religion, that would be nice. Once we get a PA, we lose all our bargaining chips because his tech is ours and visa versa. Should try to coerce him just before we sign on the dotted line? Is there any other means of coercion once the pact is signed?

On Theocracy, it would help to make the change a soon as possible. Not sure we want to delay Communism though? Can't remember, does Asoka have Economics? Can we afford to wait until he/we get it?
 
Building the Globe also offer the option of using the whip more freely and when
we are near discovering Assembly Line we can contemplate switching Civics to Nationhood which would allow us to draft Riflemen for one pop and Infantry for two pop.

We'll have to look at that later as it comes. I wouldn't want to miss too many turns to anarchy, but it might be worth it. What I found in the test game was that early on in the push is was more important to be producing units as fast as possible to build up big stacks and missed turns like that would be a problem. After things started rolling though this was less important because Capac was bigger and producing lots, and the stacks were already big. This would also make the need to draft units under Natiohood much less too...

If we are decided on going for PA domination we should also consider switching to Free Religion (unless we want Theocracy) as soon as the PA is signed. This will give us 10% extra beakers. It would be even better if Asoka also switches - should we ask him to do this before signing the PA. It depends on whether we can afford to loose the shared religion diplomatic bonus. One other reason for getting Asoka to adopt Free Religion is that we will get culture from all religions and we may need this to get cultural expansion in captured cities. How did that go in the test games? Any problems with expansion to fat cross in captured cities?

As Leif observed, Capac in the test game seemed bent on building theatres early in captured cities even after he adopted free religion and had one or two bulture a turn from that. It's not a broad sample since I was essentially playing the same leader under the same conditions as Leif, but it could be that the AI looks at culture in low culture cities and aims to boost it. I don't think Asoka having free religion will be a big bonus for us. I think he'll probably look to theatres anyway. And besides, I wouldn't want the move to free religion by Asoka to mess up our chances of getting a PA with him!

Theocracy would be more useful to us early on than Free Religion. Like Lefi says, the extra 2XP off the production line for new units allows those maces/pikes to be CR2 already without having to fight. This is a real bonus, and as SCT says, the extra science is not a huge thing for us. The extra science would be more important for Asoka to have than us I would agree that much.

This raises an interesting question. Obviously it's more economical to let our PA partner upgrade troops but on the other hand a big part of his military will sit idle so upgrading some of our own might prove a good investment. What is the experience from the tests regarding the balance between building our own army and gifting cheap units to our PA partner? If most cities are going to be taken down to one defender by us then it might be bad to supply too many units to our PA partner?

I used the strategy to the max of building cheap units and giving them to Capac in the test game for upgrade. I think using to the max like that was definitely not the best. Having more of my own army might have sped things up a little, especially seige units. The particular case I remember was when I gave Capac my canons after getting artillery. He immediately upgraded them as I wanted him to, and I built some artillery of my own. Since Capac was so rich, it would have been better for me to ask him for money and upgrade the canons myself even though this would have been much more expensive. This is something we should keep in mind if Asoka has lots and lots of money during our push to domination.

leif erikson said:
On Theocracy, it would help to make the change a soon as possible. Not sure we want to delay Communism though? Can't remember, does Asoka have Economics? Can we afford to wait until he/we get it?

Asoka has feudalism and we dont'. Guilds is beyond Feudalism and economics beyond guilds so I don't know if we can tell how far down that road Asoka has travelled. Maybe he has economics and maybe not. We won't know until we get the PA, or alternatively get feudalism and guilds ourselves.

Personally I wouldn't want to delay communism. If we get communism and the PA we'll know exactly what Asoka's got and then we can adopt theocracy or theocracy/free market, or wait until economics or something. Make the decision then.

Frederiksburg said:
My point is not to stay in Free Religion ourselves but to get Asoka to adopt it so that religion in a city will ensure fast border expansion. My worry is that we could loose many turns waiting for border expansions in the cities Asoka capture last. Any other way we can ensure that this will not happen?

A tough question we need to address before the end. I think Asoka is likely to adopt free religion himself sometime before the end. I can't see him maintaing hinduism so long after liberlism. He'll have 70-80 turns of PA and he's bound to go for free religion somewhere along the line anyway. Maybe if we get a GA somewhere, we can keep it aside for a late captured city...?

ShannonCT said:
For domination, an important consideration when deciding on conquest order is whether Asoka is likely to keep or raze a city. I've found that the fewer tiles of a conquered city that will be taken by another AI's culture, the more likely Asoka is to keep the city. That means that he's more likely to keep cities that are next to his existing borders. This would speak in favor of starting the domination in the north, especially with Washington.

A very valid point. We should try to aim Asoka at cities that will not be squeezed culturally at the time he takes them. I agree wholeheartedly.
 
A very valid point. We should try to aim Asoka at cities that will not be squeezed culturally at the time he takes them. I agree wholeheartedly.
MP, did you have Capac raze any cities in your test game? I did not and some of them were really squeezed for culture. I think we need to keep this in mind as others do some testing. I have not observed this behavior of the AI.

Maybe we should play a test that isn't based on SCT's save? We may all be getting the same results?? :eek:
 
MP, did you have Capac raze any cities This is something I want to look at too

Maybe we should play a test that isn't based on SCT's save? We may all be getting the same results?? :eek:

That seems a valid concern, but doesn't it take quite a bit of work to generate an advanced test game? I haven't found time to begin to play SCT's test yet. If someone will provide me with another test that's well advanced or past a PA, I'll certainly try to test it in the next few days.

One thought that occurred to me in reading recent posts: Building the Globe Theater would not slow military build up so much, because it would free our MP units to be upgraded and put into action.
 
MP, did you have Capac raze any cities in your test game? I did not and some of them were really squeezed for culture. I think we need to keep this in mind as others do some testing. I have not observed this behavior of the AI.

Maybe we should play a test that isn't based on SCT's save? We may all be getting the same results?? :eek:

He didn't do much razing. I remember one for sure in each of two of the attempts I made. You're right about the variety of testing. The problem is creating more test games. Maybe (something I haven't tried yet) is to play the other 3240BC test game SCT produced through to PA and then go for domination. This may produce different circumstances, PA with a different leader, etc. An even better test would be to create a different game entirely and see what happens, but that requires the work of creating it, and the more you try and make it like our real game, the more work!

I'm just thinking now about exactly when I've observed AI's razing in the past. I've seen it quite a lot. One situation I'm sure I remember it is when the AI is conducting a war a long way from home. I was playing a modern start continents game a little while ago where I bribed Izzy into an intercontinental war against a civ a lot weaker than she. She landed with a bunch of transports, stook some quite nice cities but burned every one of them down. This would imply though that the AI actually thinks about the economics of maintaining that city?? Does anyone know enough about the code to confirm or deny that?

Another slightly different situation is Monty with nukes. He delights in making a nuclear desert of a distant continent and leaves all his troops at home.

So the only fairly sure answer I can give at this point is that long distance from home seems to make it more likely that the AI will raze. I don't have any "hard data" on that though. If that is the case, it strengthens the "near home first" route for conquest.
 
One quick note:

We need to start as many wars between our target civs as possible; the best wars will be ones that get units sent all the way across the continent.

Basically, in the new few turns we need to turn as every civ against another. This will help our/Asoka's push to claim the cities near our borders.
 
On the question of Economics, when you mouse over Economics on the science screen, shouldn't it say whether the free GM is still available? I'm away for the weekend and can't look at the game. Could Cyrus have Econ? He at least has Banking. If he doesn't have Education yet, should we gift it to him to encourage him to research Econ?
 
Fred said:
Maybe the doctors forgot something when you had your surgery?

:lol:

Sorry to hear that CP. Malware creators should rot in prison for the rest of their lives.

Amen to that. Another thing I've done when something questionable comes up and wants to take over: turn-off (unplug) your modem and I'll just plug the plug on the whole computer (not even bother with the "shut down"). "Shut down" gives it time to write to the registry. Basically break the connection as fast as possible and get the computer off. I'll run Norton when it starts back up.

Fred said:
Shannon proposed that we gift our next GS to Asoka hoping that he will build an Academy. How do we know that he will not use it for a golden age? If we get any GA's we should probably hang on to them and settle them in one of the captured cities that need to get 2nd expansion to cover enough tiles. One of the "OCC with PA" articles mentioned that you can't culture bomb your PA partners cities but that it is possible to settle a GP there. Maybe we should test this.

I did this in my HOF 40 attempts. You can settle the GP as a specialist in the city by moving him to that city then clicking on the specialists icon (same procedure as if we were settling it in one of our own cities). IIRC with the GS one option is for you to build the Academy, so we can actually place the Academy in the city of our choice for Asoka. You can not culture bomb with GA but you can settle them for the extra cpt, if placed stratigically it could benefit a couple cities.

If we're still in no hurry to play, I'd like to try out the test game.
 
Just re-confirmed that you can choose the city to place the Academy in for your PA partner.







EDIT: Capac's 1st build in Paris was a theater. I thought it might be related to the size of city and number of unhappy when captured, but he did same thing in New York, size 1 after capture. The xml worksheet says he only has a 25% chance to build units based on the iBuildUnitProb rand. This ranges from a min of 15 to a max of 40, with a mode of 25. Although you would think being at war would make him more likely to build units.
 
If we're still in no hurry to play, I'd like to try out the test game.
Fred is going to finish up the 8 turns to Communism Sunday. I feeling I get is that we all feel that we have some testing to do, so I don't think we're in a real hurry. We're quite a bit ahead of the other teams thus far so a break can't hurt to work out details for the second half of this game. It seems to me like we almost have another game to play... ;)

Just re-confirmed that you can choose the city to place the Academy in for your PA partner.
Now, that is :cool: I would have not even thought to try this. :goodjob:
 
Fred is going to finish up the 8 turns to Communism Sunday. I feeling I get is that we all feel that we have some testing to do, so I don't think we're in a real hurry. We're quite a bit ahead of the other teams thus far so a break can't hurt to work out details for the second half of this game. It seems to me like we almost have another game to play... ;)


Now, that is :cool: I would have not even thought to try this. :goodjob:

No problem, I also like the comment about saving & uploading 1 turn prior to the signing of the PA. We need to make sure our warring is done fast. Wastin'Time did an excellent job of mass producing units and taking cities down to 1 defender, instead of gifting units directly to PA partner. He had a good bit of warfare done before the PA was ever signed. So some of the teams with flatlined power graphs may still be a problem if they are softening up opponents.
 
No problem, I also like the comment about saving & uploading 1 turn prior to the signing of the PA. We need to make sure our warring is done fast. Wastin'Time did an excellent job of mass producing units and taking cities down to 1 defender, instead of gifting units directly to PA partner. He had a good bit of warfare done before the PA was ever signed. So some of the teams with flatlined power graphs may still be a problem if they are softening up opponents.
Is there a thread that discusses this?

I am wondering about the softening up process? What I am wondering is how it was done and the purpose it served. The reason I ask is that in the test game I played, at Deity the AI seems to be able to make units quite quickly. Taking a city down to one defender didn't seem to last long. If there is no PA partner to grab the city, it can replace its defenders rapidly and then, it seems to me, that we would spend a great deal of time killing easily replaced units with ones we would find more difficult to replace?

I agree that, after an initial slug, we probably want to keep our own Army intact and use it offensively creating cake walks for our partner. The other issue is war weariness. Without Globe, it seemed to set in awfully fast. Spending time killing all these units would increase our WW, no?
 
I am wondering about the softening up process? What I am wondering is how it was done and the purpose it served. The reason I ask is that in the test game I played, at Deity the AI seems to be able to make units quite quickly. Taking a city down to one defender didn't seem to last long. If there is no PA partner to grab the city, it can replace its defenders rapidly and then, it seems to me, that we would spend a great deal of time killing easily replaced units with ones we would find more difficult to replace?

I don't follow what this "softening up" is about that Gator is talking about. I must have missed something? I noticed in the test I played that the AI will move units from one city to another to help defend so if you take one city down to one defender while the AI has another well defended city, units move from one to the other. That means you have to do quite a bit of softening and then make your "real" war fairly soon afterwards because the AI can build units faster than you can because he's at deity, and usually has more than one city. The disbenefits of building your own forces up twice would outweigh the benefits of the softening up if it was done too long before the "real thing". And besides, a flat lined power graph indicates that either your science is stalled or you are losing enough units to offset the increase in power your science advancement gives. Not very effective softening up I would think?

In any new war in the test games I played there was a period of softening necessary as you absorbed the AI's "stack" of surplus units that were hanging around waiting for trouble. This can take the form of a lot of fighting before cities get taken, or the form of a counter-attack where an enemy stack advances on yours or your PA partner's territory. (Usually the PA partner since he has a lot more territory, a lot closer to he target.)

I'd tend to think that any "softening up" you do would immediately begin to be less and less effective with each turn after you stop the war. Why get to the point where you have weakened the opponent, then not do the easy bit and take the depleted cities? If you don't you just let him recover - something he's probably going to do faster than you at this difficulty level with OCC settings?
 
Words of Wisdom from WastinTime's HOF Minor 40 Gauntlet (game was only at Noble):

I got a PA on turn 104, but that's because I go to Communism before MT.


I mentioned earlier that I tried the strategy of clearing space to let your partner settle. It seemed like the right thing to do to avoid the City Razing problem. It did not work at all for me. Catherine didn't build settlers. Maybe it was Catherine. Maybe it was that I was on BTS. I think it was because she was at war. Do you go to war alone and leave your future partner at peace?

Regarding wonders. Globe and Nat.Park seem like a good idea for OCC, but I never considered building either in this gauntlet. The Park comes too late to matter, and you have to research Biology and then build it. I'd rather build military. Same with Globe. If this was an OCC space race, sure. But does your city really need to be that big? It just needs to be big enough to build a military unit in 1 turn. Happiness/health aren't really a problem. After Oxford, I build non-stop military units except for Heroic Epic. I stick that in when it becomes available.

Key line here is 1 good unit = 1 turn


My plan this game was worker, warrior, library (get Academy ASAP). Build a few chariots to harrass a couple AI until Oracle used on Education, then Chop University, and Oxford while researching Gunpowder -- On turn 62 -- Then non-stop musketeers (I played France). Turn 104 Communism/PA. Turn 115 -- Mil. Trad. and then non-stop Cavalry. Heroic Epic when available. I attacked each city down to 1 defender and let Catherine clean up.

He was producing musketeers for over 40 turns prior to his PA and 50 turns until cavalry was available.

Denniz said:
This Gauntlet is finished.

Results
1st 1670AD WastinTime

The "softening up" of opponents I'm talking about is to bring in other AI's as allys or keeping AI-on-AI action going so that their number of units stay down. Do it thru diplo actions not necessarily direct combat by the human player part.

I like to bring my next victim into the war against my current target when possible. That way I can catch his offensive units in the open field. Plus it reduces the number of defenders in his cities.
 
(game was only at Noble):
This helps explain a few things as well. :)


The "softening up" of opponents I'm talking about is to bring in other AI's as allys or keeping AI-on-AI action going so that their number of units stay down. Do it thru diplo actions not necessarily direct combat by the human player part.

I like to bring my next victim into the war against my current target when possible. That way I can catch his offensive units in the open field. Plus it reduces the number of defenders in his cities.
I think I've got you now. :thanx:

The only thing I can see that we would have to watch is having our next target take a city that we bring down to one defender before our partner can take it. That would not be good at all!! :cringe:

Getting his units in the open is always a good thing, especially with Artillery!!
:yumyum: :hammer: :yup:

EDIT - A couple of the teams have played another set. The graphs are looking interesting. Looking at the Culture graph, do you think a couple of the teams may have built both Pyramids and GLHouse? It seems Murky by-passed both wonders, built a Library and then the Great Library. Some odd power curves as well...
 
"The xml worksheet says he only has a 25% chance to build units based on the iBuildUnitProb rand. This ranges from a min of 15 to a max of 40, with a mode of 25. Although you would think being at war would make him more likely to build units."

What does the xml worksheet say about Asoka's build preferences?
 
"The xml worksheet says he only has a 25% chance to build units based on the iBuildUnitProb rand. This ranges from a min of 15 to a max of 40, with a mode of 25. Although you would think being at war would make him more likely to build units."

What does the xml worksheet say about Asoka's build preferences?

Asoka's unit build % is at 20 and his city raze probability is at 0%.

The progress graphs do look interesting. 5th Elements' power graph is on the rise again. I'd guess they are going the warfare route, that is the team that WastinTime is on.
 
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