SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Will the extra promotions really speed the attack or will all enemy cities be taken down to one defender by ourselves and then captured by Asoka in which case promotions seem to play an insignificant role?

Based upon my experience, I believe you state the case correctly, we will do most of the fighting and Asoka's forces will walk in to take the city. This may not be the most important part of the equation though. After we have given the city to him, he still has to hold it. If he produces CG2 Grenadiers, and later Rifles, he will be better equipped to do this. In testing, I found that he moves his stack on to fight and leaves only a unit or two to keep the city. We will not have enough units to take the offense and screen his newly won cities. So the extra promo may help him keep what he has and keep us from having to retake the same ground twice.

Not easy to choose between the Free Religion and Theocracy plans. On one hand we can gain maybe 3 turns on our research to Infantry (rough estimate) and on the other we gain some promotions for Asoka's forces and a few of our own. It's like comparing apples and pears.

Most of the fighting I did was done with siege weapons. The Grens, Rifles and Infantry were mostly used to protect the siege weapons. I only fought the non-siege units when I was 90% or better, except for a few times when I had no choice. Most of my builds were Cannons or Artillery, and some infrastructure (Globe Theater for instance).

This why I asked what we were going to use to attack Washington. Cats have no staying power and we will need to build a lot of replacements. Cannons are better at surviving the rigors of combat, Artillery are nearly invincible until our opponents get Infantry themselves, which shouldn't happen if we do this right. Thus the need to speed for Artillery.

 

[Frederiksberg]

This why I asked what we were going to use to attack Washington. Cats have no staying power and we will need to build a lot of replacements. Cannons are better at surviving the rigors of combat, Artillery are nearly invincible until our opponents get Infantry themselves, which shouldn't happen if we do this right. Thus the need to speed for Artillery.

If speed to Artillery is important it speaks in favor of Free Religion. Free Religion also adds a happy face per religion which might help Asoka when WW sets in.

So the extra promo may help him keep what he has and keep us from having to retake the same ground twice.

If defending a city comes down to one or two promotions I think we have lost control of the battlefield. I don't think we would want to play like that anyway.

 

[DJMGator13]

Good discussion, as usual. I'm off to the softball game again. I'll start pulling our game plan together tomorrow night.

 

[Mad Professor]

If speed to Artillery is important it speaks in favor of Free Religion. Free Religion also adds a happy face per religion which might help Asoka when WW sets in.

Good discussion guys. I lean with Leif, though more out of uncertainty and ignorance than anything. Fred's assertion that Asoka is still friendly at +10 is encouraging in that regard.

If defending a city comes down to one or two promotions I think we have lost control of the battlefield. I don't think we would want to play like that anyway.

Well I don't think it's a matter of losing control of the battlefield. What happened a couple of times when I was playing the test game was that with a new declaration of war, the new victim would launch a counter-attack with a stack it had sitting around at a point where our main offensive stack was not. I managed to avoid having Capac lose an already taken city, but it was a close thing a couple of times and it sure slowed me down dealing with it and healing units again afterwards to resume the thrust. Perhaps we need to look at ways of dealing with this? I think it's inevitable. Take Caesar for example - if we invade near Antium (say) what happens if he has a decent stack in Rome that goes north to Madrid (which we've already taken)? All it means is we need to know this intelligence and alter attack plans to cope with it - as Leif says, retaking ground more than once really slows you up... It's something we need to incorporate into an attack plan. We just need to be very thourough, looking at every possibility before launching each attack. It wouldn't hurt (and if it was my turn set I'd definitely do this) to pause in the middle of a turn set with the attack ready to go so everyone in the team can look over the situation in the save and help the person with the mouse spot things they might have missed before the declaration is made.

Edit: Made a little edit after rechecking the game map!

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

The difference between having one vs two promotions for units straight off the production line is actually quite decisive.

Am I right in saying that without Theocracy we only get 4xp from a barracks for one promotion, but under Theocracy we get 6xp and two promotions to start with?

Remember the +10% research from Free Religion is only worth about +3% to us because of our current bonuses. The bonus to Asoka's research may be closer to the +10% though. But remember we are also considering a plan that hopes for Asoka to adopt Free Religion under his own motivation.

 

[Mad Professor]

The difference between having one vs two promotions for units straight off the production line is actually quite decisive.

Am I right in saying that without Theocracy we only get 4xp from a barracks for one promotion, but under Theocracy we get 6xp and two promotions to start with?

Remember the +10% research from Free Religion is only worth about +3% to us because of our current bonuses. The bonus to Asoka's research may be closer to the +10% though. But remember we are also considering a plan that hopes for Asoka to adopt Free Religion under his own motivation.

It is this last thing I'd really like to quantify. As I've said before my feeling is that Asoka will adopt Free Religion of his own accord anyway well before the end of the game. However, I'd feel better if I could quantify it. The only way I have to do that at is to play a lot more games with Asoka in them and note exactly when he adopts free religion compared to when he gets Liberalism and that is obviously extremely tedious. The other way if someone can (I can't) is to dig in the code somewhere and find some variable that tells us how likely that is. Alternatively, finding an article somewhere in the forums on it...?

 

[Cactus Pete]

The difference between having one vs two promotions for units straight off the production line is actually quite decisive.
I like the second promotion too. It allows a great deal of flexibility, such as any unit can become a medic or you can attack with superior firepower and only one promotion, then use the second promotion to help heal quickly.

Am I right in saying that without Theocracy we only get 4xp from a barracks for one promotion, but under Theocracy we get 6xp and two promotions to start with? Yes.

Remember the +10% research from Free Religion is only worth about +3% to us because of our current bonuses. The bonus to Asoka's research may be closer to the +10% though. But remember we are also considering a plan that hopes for Asoka to adopt Free Religion under his own motivation.

If the possibility of Asoka revolting on his own is near 50%, I'd say it's a no-brainer.

 

[leif erikson]

If the possibility of Asoka revolting on his own is near 50%, I'd say it's a no-brainer.

How do we figure this out?

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Here's a suggestion, (although I won't be doing the testing myself):

Could make a world builder scenario with roughly the same number of civs and the same stage of the game as we are at. Make sure Asoka has 2 cities, one with 19 pop and one with 11 pop. Make the 11 pop a 4x holy city and make the 19 pop have 3x religions. Give him a state religion and organised religion (this is what Asoka currently has in our game isn't it?). Then after ten turns or so, give him Liberalism and see how long it takes for him to switch...

You could try one test with him at war, and another test with him at peace.

 

[Frederiksberg]

The difference between having one vs two promotions for units straight off the production line is actually quite decisive.

Am I right in saying that without Theocracy we only get 4xp from a barracks for one promotion, but under Theocracy we get 6xp and two promotions to start with?

Remember the +10% research from Free Religion is only worth about +3% to us because of our current bonuses. The bonus to Asoka's research may be closer to the +10% though. But remember we are also considering a plan that hopes for Asoka to adopt Free Religion under his own motivation.

Maybe I should explain more carefully: The idea with switching to Free Religion is ONLY to make Asoka switch (you can only ask for civic changes to a civic you are using yourself). When Asoka is in Free Religion we switch back to Theocracy. I'm well aware of the advantage we would have with double promoted units but I doubt that Asoka can make much use of the extra promotion as I argued earlier.

 

[leif erikson]

Maybe I should explain more carefully: The idea with switching to Free Religion is ONLY to make Asoka switch (you can only ask for civic changes to a civic you are using yourself). When Asoka is in Free Religion we switch back to Theocracy. I'm well aware of the advantage we would have with double promoted units but I doubt that Asoka can make much use of the extra promotion as I argued earlier.

Thanks for the clarification.

The reason to do this is that it provides two main benefits. The first is a +10% research boost for our PA partner. Not sure what his research rate currently is, but as an Organized civ, as he takes more cities, it will be a greater boost over time. The second factor is for creating the opportunity for faster cultural expansion as he takes cities. This leads to faster domination times because we do not have to worry as much about how he expands the cultural boundaries as every city has a religion. These benefits apply to the entire time line, from now (greater research capability) to the end game (faster cultural expansion).

I agree that this is the best civic to have Asoka in during the next phase of our operations as I think we will do most of the fighting and he will contribute most to the research. The question is whether he will switch to it himself or whether we need to make him do so. To make him do so would cost us two turns. One for us change and one for him to change while we then change to Theocracy. It really boils down to a single turn as we need to go to Theocracy anyway, imho.

The downside of this is that he may change this civic choice at any time after we force the change.

I think we need to decide this so that we can get the PA signed and start Is the risk of Asoka changing and the loss of a turn for us greater than the reward of Asoka's greater research and faster cultural expansion?

 

[ShannonCT]

I did a WB test that confirmed that Asoka will be Friendly at +10. So the Free Religion path is feasible.

I think I agree with your conclusion that Asoka will still be friendly at +10. I looked into the hidden modifiers more and I believe we should have a +1 hidden modifier with Asoka. Asoka has a hidden base attitude of +1 with everyone. He also has a hidden attitude of up to +3 for Civs weaker than he (but we are proabably not weak enough to get this). And unlike some AI, he gives no hidden penalty to Civs stronger than he. Since we haven't been to war with him, he couldn't have a hidden lost war penalty against us. That should account for all of the hidden modifiers. If we get to a visible +9 with Asoka by gifting Liberalism, that should put us on Friendly terms.

So if we did attempt the Free Religion strategy, we should trade for Gunpowder with Washington, gift Liberalism to Asoka, convert to Free Religion, make sure Asoka is still friendly with us, get Asoka to convert to Free Religion, and then sign the PA. A few turns later when we can trade for Economics, we can switch to Theocracy and Free Market.

I'm not sure what the chances are of Asoka switching to Free Religion voluntarily. I could only find hints and allegations in the forums, but nothing conclusive. And I didn't see anything in the XML files to indicate AI preference for Free Religion. I can try some practice games soon and see if I arrive at any helpful conclusions.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Your work is appreciated, SCT. There seem to be two questions still in play here: What is the probability that Asoka will convert to FR on his own, and what is the probability that he will revolt out of it on his own? Having him in FR and likely to remain there is worth a turn of anarchy, but only if he's unlikely to get there on his own.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I have done some more WB testing. I persuaded Asoka to adopt Free Religion and he was happy to stay there in a peaceful game. When I tried the same in a war game he would still adopt FR but after only 12 turns he switched to Theocracy so it seems that we can't rely on him sticking to FR with all the warfare ahead.

I think the conclusion is that it's not worth the extra anarchy to make him switch to FR, because we really want him in FR at the end of the game not in the beginning.

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work Fred!

Do we need to ask him to change to Theocracy or shall we let him manage his own affairs?

 

[Frederiksberg]

Do we need to ask him to change to Theocracy or shall we let him manage his own affairs?

Good question. It really depends on what he is building. Right now he's getting the 25% bonus for building infrastructure. I wonder if the AI knows how to efficiently switch civics...

Asoka is spiritual so he will have no anarchy from switching.

Either way is fine by me.

 

[Mad Professor]

I think I agree with your conclusion that Asoka will still be friendly at +10. I looked into the hidden modifiers more and I believe we should have a +1 hidden modifier with Asoka. Asoka has a hidden base attitude of +1 with everyone. He also has a hidden attitude of up to +3 for Civs weaker than he (but we are proabably not weak enough to get this). And unlike some AI, he gives no hidden penalty to Civs stronger than he. Since we haven't been to war with him, he couldn't have a hidden lost war penalty against us. That should account for all of the hidden modifiers. If we get to a visible +9 with Asoka by gifting Liberalism, that should put us on Friendly terms.

This is valuable info for all time. Thanks SCT. This is one part of the game I don't understand well. I'm glad to learn something.

I'm not sure what the chances are of Asoka switching to Free Religion voluntarily. I could only find hints and allegations in the forums, but nothing conclusive. And I didn't see anything in the XML files to indicate AI preference for Free Religion. I can try some practice games soon and see if I arrive at any helpful conclusions.

hHnts and allegations, yes. I could find no better either. It was the best I could provide myself also.

I have done some more WB testing. I persuaded Asoka to adopt Free Religion and he was happy to stay there in a peaceful game. When I tried the same in a war game he would still adopt FR but after only 12 turns he switched to Theocracy so it seems that we can't rely on him sticking to FR with all the warfare ahead.

This is also very valuable info Fred. Thanks for the effort. This knowledge devalues the idea of bribing him to free religion before the PA. Let's just hope he goes there on his own accord later on because as you say, it at the end of the game that we need him there!

Do we need to ask him to change to Theocracy or shall we let him manage his own affairs?

Fred's little test above seems to indicate that he might decide of his own accord to switch to Theocracy if we give him enough war to think about...

 

[leif erikson]

Fred's little test above seems to indicate that he might decide of his own accord to switch to Theocracy if we give him enough war to think about...

I just thought that since when we form the PA that Asoka will get all our techs anyway. So why not give him a push into Theocracy with a tech he will get no matter what. The only reason I can think of not to do this is because there is some advantage to his remaining in OR?

 

[DJMGator13]

With a big assist from leif I've got a Gameplan set-up (started?) for my turnset. I tried to recap most of key concept points for the rest of the game. I know details are still to be worked out, but since we're entering the warring phase of the game it is good to make sure we have the key points covered. Also we don't need to keep our Diplo log anymore.

Gameplan


DIPLO CONCERNS
Asoka - Free Religion vrs Theocracy debate - looks like we leave him alone

Start as many wars as possible on our continent (P#628)

(P661) Maybe whoever plays next can first sign the PA with Asoka and then post the save so we can see what's what. I'd like to see how long Physics will take with Asoka's help and whether going directly for Chem would waste beakers. I'd like to see how many beakers Bombay would gain if we built an Academy there. I'd like to see what other techs Asoka had and how close we are to Economics (for a double switch to Theocracy and Free Market).

TECHS
trade for Gunpowder with Washington and research Chemistry in 5-6 turns (P#646) and after that we should be ready for an attack - maybe on Washington?

Occasionally you'll want to ask your PA to switch to research something different, for instance if the tech you are about to discover gives a free GP.

An interesting quirk: (P#654)
I just remembered something about signing a PA. For some reason, on the turn that you sign a PA your AI partner has a MASSIVE number of beakers available for research for that turn only. I wonder if it is because you can redirect all of the beakers they have stored up towards their current research goal.
The result of this is that we should be able to research our first tech very quickly after signing a PA (I think there's often been enough beakers from the AI partner to research an expensive tech in 1 turn!). A possible gambit for this would be to direct this massive amount of beaker to research Physics quickly (as well as using our current GS if needed) and then use the GS from Physics to bulb toward Chemistry. This allows us to use 2 GS's on our Artillery beeline path.


WAR GOALS
Start as many wars as possible on our continent (P#628) - catch troops in open field & reduce defenders
Elisabeth can be bribed to attack Alex - they both have big stacks that we would want to decimate. We should probably also bribe Fred into war again - maybe with Kublai this time to keep him occupied down south? (P#646)

Proposed Order: Washington, Liz, HC (only take Cuzco then make peace), Toku, and then Fred. Followed by Julius, Kublai, HC, Alex. Shouldn't require any cross continent treks. (P#683)

Do we raze New York, or not?

Regarding order of conquest: (P#685)
Why not Alex after Lizzie? His non-defensive units should be in England and vulnerable. Having a galeon built by then would certainly faciltate matters.
Presuming we attack Washington first, let's get workers and 9/10 mace home. Wash will likely counterattack us with his cats, trying to pillage (this could well include Asoka's gold). The mace should be able to pick one off and let us build the HE. The workers may have to repair an improvement.
Delaying war a few turns while we continue towards Chemistry will allow Wash to send and lose units trying to take Cusco. We should consider declaring war before we have Chemistry though , because our lack of power may sucker Wash into attacking us, just before we upgrade.
Razing NYC, trading low-level techs, and selling our map will get us gold for upgrading, so we may want to keep some of our excess archers and concentrate on bulding cats and maces. An early build should be theater (one turn if we micromanage) to free up an MP and prepare for later Globe.

(P#694) And I expect Asoka will have plenty of gold in reserve to give to us after upgrading his own units. The AI only make a small percentage of their reserve gold available to non-allies. But with the PA, we'll see a lot of gold available. When we take some, he'll probably reduce his research rate to replenish it. But it's better for us to stay at 100% research since we have a 200% beaker bonus and no gold bonus.

I don't think archers can get CR promotions. We could try combat 1.


Final turn cultural expansions needed to speed Domination
(P#675) we could make Hindu missionaries and spread it to the formerly Bud cities after capture. To make sure cities are producing some culture and get the first expansion.
(P#676) If we get a GA, we can settle it as a specialist for +12cpt in any city we choose. I did it in the the test game. We just can not culture bomb with a GA.
Once Globe is built we'll be at 2 source for a GA, 2 sources for a GS and 1 for a GM. But not for equal turns. So we'd need to hire the artist as you suggested to try gain an edge towards a GA. At current pace it will take 33 turns for another GPP to appear, but if we change civics (+100% modifier) it will take longer.
(P#677) If we get a Great Artist, we should settle him in a city that we want to get 2 border pops. A settled GA will give a second border pop in 9 turns. Once we are at the point where more units wont help capture the final cities faster, we could revolt to Caste System and Pacifism to generate a GA quickly.

City Culture pics (P#663)


BEIJING
We need to work out build orders and work in Heroic Epic (when we are eligible to build it), Theater and Globe Theater.

(P#661) Now that Asoka is at peace with Capac, should we plan to take down Washington first? If so, it would be good to start building some cats to help with Washington (the city).


UNITS
Caravel is already on it's way back home.

(P#698) Right (my mistake), but he could just put them in a city . . . so we might want to put one or two on the gold hill and upgrade them to Choks, declare war, finish Chemistry, then gift. For this purpose, we might be better off using a couple of the unpromoted archers in our capital (whatever number we don't need as MP's, given a theater) if we're going to gift units to Asoka (and I'm inclined to gift fewer, if upgrading is affordable, as I think we'll do better with the promotion, and the next one, than Asoka.)
Be helpful to have an additional mace with two promotions available near our capital before we declare war on Wash (and, as I suggested earlier, just before we get Chemistry) so we can defend the marble and other key improvements from pillaging the turn after war is declared, while we upgrade to grenadiers.

 

[ShannonCT]

I just thought that since when we form the PA that Asoka will get all our techs anyway. So why not give him a push into Theocracy with a tech he will get no matter what. The only reason I can think of not to do this is because there is some advantage to his remaining in OR?

If we want to switch to Theocracy right away, we might as well push Asoka in as well. The only alternative I see is for us to delay our conversion to Theocracy until a time when we can also switch to Free Market, saving a turn of anarchy. If we want to prioritize the theater, Globe, HE right now, Theocracy can wait.