SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Are we sure Madrid is razed? Julius never voluntarily razes a captured city according to the Vanilla Leader Worksheet. And I see a jump in Julius's score that should be the population and Parthenon from Madrid.

Interesting observation!

Just checked the save and, while Madrid doesn't show??, the Parthenon is still listed and it says it belongs to Rome. Perhaps the city is there and we jus can't see it?

What is also interesting is that when I checked the cultural map, Madrid doesn't show, at all. Could that be because it is in resistance?

Strange happening on the XTeam map...

 

[ShannonCT]

What is also interesting is that when I checked the cultural map, Madrid doesn't show, at all. Could that be because it is in resistance?

Yes, and because we haven't revisited that part of the map since it was captured.

It looks like Misfits got their PA a couple turns after us. Their power is ~10 turns ahead of ours. We're going to need all of the warmongering expertise at work to finish ASAP.

I like the idea of taking on Julius before Fred. Rome will need the most time to come out of revolt, and Madrid also needs time to expand its culture twice. If we take on Julius first, we can use the movement through Fred's land to speed us up. When we're done with Julius, we can go after Fred from the north and south.

 

[rrau]

Can we trade maps with Julius? If he has the city and didn't raze it, it should show on his map.

 

[leif erikson]

Can we trade maps with Julius? If he has the city and didn't raze it, it should show on his map.

No, we can't trade maps with Julius. The best we could do is trade maps with Fred and it will cost us 10 Gold to do so.

I like the idea of taking on Julius before Fred. Rome will need the most time to come out of revolt, and Madrid also needs time to expand its culture twice. If we take on Julius first, we can use the movement through Fred's land to speed us up. When we're done with Julius, we can go after Fred from the north and south.

It will require 9 turns to get our farthest Galleon to Rome, 7 turns for the one outside of Athens. The game says 8 turns and 6 but that is direct to Rome. We would have to park outside the cultural boundary so we can declare and then can land after that. Seem like a long time when we could be knocking on Hamburg's door in 3 to 4 turns?

We would also need Asoka to make the trek to Rome and I'm unsure how long that would take? With 6 units parked outside Rome, it would seem to be a long time for them to survive? Reinforcements would be slow in coming. The fastest way would be to sail to near Delhi where we could stage units for shipment to Rome.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I like the idea of taking on Julius before Fred. Rome will need the most time to come out of revolt, and Madrid also needs time to expand its culture twice. If we take on Julius first, we can use the movement through Fred's land to speed us up. When we're done with Julius, we can go after Fred from the north and south.

This idea deserves some consideration. Maybe we need to discuss attack order before Gator plays on? Cuzco is about ready to fall and after that we must know where to direct our units in the eastern stack. We should also think about creating a third stack. In the end the speed of attack should depend on our ability to keep attacking multiple cities at the same time.

Attacking far away cities is more complicated in this game since the capture date doesn't depend on our ability to reach a city but Asoka's ability and willingness.

 

[Frederiksberg]

JC took Madrid from Fred, so it may be time to hit Fred. Besides he's closer to Asoka and might be more attractive. I may gift more front line units to Asoka to try to get him moving. We're currently making artillery in 1 turn thanks to a hammer overflow.

I believe that one important information we got from play testing was that Asoka will only move fast against cities with few defenders and I suspect that this is the reason that he hasn't moved against Cuzco or Sparta. Gifting him more units is therefore not likely to change much so I think we should rather get moving and thin out the defense in our target cities.

 

[rrau]

I like the idea of attacking Julius first. Less distance for our troops to travel in the endgame and time for the cities to expand.

We need to take out alex soon so his galleys quit harrassing Asoka.

 

[DJMGator13]

Had a nice post type out, went to preview it and nothing....

Okay here's the quick version:

Event log reported only that JC "captured" Madrid. JC won't trade/sell maps, but Freddy will, cost of 10 gold.



I have asked Asoka to attack Cuzco, two times.

I've promo'd a cannon to Medic in the Cuzco stack to aid healing. It was the only unit that had a promo available.

My HOF settings are on for dom limit: it shows 113 tiles owned and 282 tiles needed.

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I like the idea of leaving an artillery behind for mop-up duty and moving on to the next city. We need to be the only ones at war for this to be effective.

Should I play another turn or two? That should hopefully see the fall of Cuzco and perhaps if we can get Asoka moving towards Sparta.

 

[leif erikson]

Attacking far away cities is more complicated in this game since the capture date doesn't depend on our ability to reach a city but Asoka's ability and willingness.

Yes! This is the key point we need to keep in mind as we plan for future operations.

Perhaps it was a mistake for us to bribe Fred into attacking JC? I think we need to reduce Cuzco and, should Fred take it, declare and go for Hamburg. A stack headed for Sparta can embark and head for Rome once Sparta is taken, healing enroute. Once we have success against Fred, I see no reason not to take on Fred and JC at the same time. We'll have to watch War Weariness, although in 8 turns that should be able to be controlled by the culture slider.

 

[DJMGator13]

This may not be the best plan but here’s a shot at one. It would take our two existing attack groups and the addition of a 3rd stack. We’d also want 1 more galleon.

The Sparta Group would hit Sparta and then Tiwanku. Then would be joined by the 3rd galleon and would load 9 units and sail directly (3 turns) to Rome. I want to hit Rome hard and in the first wave so that we cripple the production/counter ability. After the fall of Rome this group would hit Besbalik also.

The Cuzco Group would proceed through German lands using the Open Borders and position themselves NW of Antium. We strike Antium and Rome on same turn and start reducing numbers to one (Asoka won’t be anywhere close). Then we proceed to Karakrum, while possibly splitting a small group to detour back to Berlin or hitting it after Karakrum.

The Kyoto Group (3rd stack) we need to build. This stack would be sent overland directly to Kyoto and be responsible for Hamburg and Madrid also. I need to build 1 galleon and art for the Sparta Group but after that all the other builds go here. I could probably have a nice little stack ready to attack in about 12 turn (6 units to attack, 4 units trailing).

Asoka will probably be more active in the Kyoto Group at first. But if we can keep the Open Border with Freddy he might send troops after JC when we have the cities prepared. Besides, we’ll have learned Rocketry by then also.

Also by this time we can probably afford a quick break in the production cycle for Globe, since we may be at war with JC for a while and possibly with everyone on our continent until Asoka captures the cities. (Alex and HC should be gone by then.)

 

[DJMGator13]

Here's a map of the plan (the map is old but the screen shot had all the cities).



The Kyoto group can actually split after taking Hamburg and go after both Madrid and Berlin. Leaving the Cuzco Group to remain in full force which is important because there wont be reinforcements coming for the Cuzco and Sparta Groups once this starts. But with artillery against longbows and pikes and muskets that should be good.

 

[leif erikson]

I appreciate the thought and effort that is in this plan. I have two questions:

1. Do you think we are taking a risk in leaving Fred until last as he is the most technologically advanced. He has Chemistry and may be researching Steel and Cannon?

2. Do you think Asoka will be able to follow all this? We can not afford to lose a city to being razed! What are the chances of Fred razing a Roman city? He is still at war with JC and can take the weakened cities. That is not a big deal as long as Asoka will take them back from Fred...
EDIT - with all this city taking, what happens with the population of the cities? Seems to me like it would be reduced significantly?

 

[DJMGator13]

I appreciate the thought and effort that is in this plan. I have two questions:

1. Do you think we are taking a risk in leaving Fred until last as he is the most technologically advanced. He has Chemistry and may be researching Steel and Cannon?

2. Do you think Asoka will be able to follow all this? We can not afford to lose a city to being razed! What are the chances of Fred razing a Roman city? He is still at war with JC and can take the weakened cities. That is not a big deal as long as Asoka will take them back from Fred...
EDIT - with all this city taking, what happens with the population of the cities? Seems to me like it would be reduced significantly?

We only need to stay at peace with Fred long enough to move the Cuzco force into postion NW of Antium. This allows us to use his roads and move 3 tiles in 1 turn versus 1 tile a turn if at war. If Cuzco falls in 2 turns and we start the troops moving most of this group can be there in 6 turns.

I wasn't planning on declaring on Fred until the new Kyoto Group is ready. In about 10-12 turns we'll be at war with whoever is alive on our continent.

 

[DJMGator13]

The real AI to keep an eye on is Cyrus. He knows abouts Rifles. If he comes to visit our Asoka prepared cities it would mess up our plans.

In about 15 turns we could be well on our way to having most (almost half) of the remaining 11 cities down to 1 defender.

 

[Mad Professor]

The real AI to keep an eye on is Cyrus. He knows abouts Rifles. If he comes to visit our Asoka prepared cities it would mess up our plans.

In about 15 turns we could be well on our way to having most (almost half) of the remaining 11 cities down to 1 defender.

You know how to make a guy sit up and take notice don't you? That looks nice. Then it's just getting Asoka in there, and keeping unwanted guys out. With those we are war with so weakened, they won't have many units wandering around being a pain.

I don't have the save with me now - has Cyrus got Astronomy, and if so, for how long has he had it? Wasn't he starting another war right now with Louis? Do I remember that comment somewhere? If so, he won't be interested in coming to our continent for 15 or 20 turns at lesat - I don't think this is a likely problem. Any plan which reduces the enemies on our continent completely so quickly is worth having a look at, as threats from the other continent are probably not significant in the next 20 turns.

I appreciate the thought and effort that is in this plan. I have two questions:

1. Do you think we are taking a risk in leaving Fred until last as he is the most technologically advanced. He has Chemistry and may be researching Steel and Cannon?

This is my main concern too, but if we can make him a twitching wreck in as little as 15 turns while still having done likewise to Caesar, I can't see a lot of danger in this. He won't produce very much with our units sitting on his hammer producing tiles

EDIT: The key thing to remember is that our job is reducing defenders and defences in enemy cities ASAP. Asoka moves faster when this is the case. His job is capturing the cities. We need to think this way rather than in conventional attack, capture mode. We are just there to destroy defences. Destoy a city's defences, move on. Let Asoka get there when he gets there. He just need to move on and keep destroying city defences. Fast.

 

[Frederiksberg]

It occurred to me that the SDK example I used in the SGOTM5 thread has some answers to our debate regarding city razing. It looks like the AI will never raze a city if it has less than 5 cities and it will never raze a holy city or a city that has an active (non-obsolete) world wonder. I guess this means that if Fred captures one of JC's cities he will not raze it. And, as we have already found out, Madrid has not been razed...

Regarding Gators plan I have a couple of things I would like to incorporate: First I would like to save Kyoto and possibly also Hamburg for late capture because they are both close to Beijing and can be attacked by units we build late and none of them are critical when it comes to border expansion. Secondly I would want the plan to include an early capture of Madrid because it needs 2nd border expansion.

Although it's tempting to put a stack into Roman territory now I remain a little puzzled about Asoka's ability to follow with units. When we have removed cultural defenses and reduced the number of defenders to one how do we handle the situation where it takes Asoka many turns to get down there (say if we start the war against Fred in the mean time and the German borders are closed to him). If Fred gets there first and takes the city we would be forced to declare on him and retake the city. How many units need to be left behind to handle this eventuality?

Sparta may be starving which is not in our interest so I suggest we move or frigates to the coast tile 1S of Sparta to make the fish tile workable again. We should use the same care when attacking Tiwanaku.

 

[leif erikson]

It occurred to me that the SDK example I used in the SGOTM5 thread has some answers to our debate regarding city razing. It looks like the AI will never raze a city if it has less than 5 cities and it will never raze a holy city or a city that has an active (non-obsolete) world wonder. I guess this means that if Fred captures one of JC's cities he will not raze it. And, as we have already found out, Madrid has not been razed...

This is good news! We can romp without worry...

Regarding Gators plan I have a couple of things I would like to incorporate: First I would like to save Kyoto and possibly also Hamburg for late capture because they are both close to Beijing and can be attacked by units we build late and none of them are critical when it comes to border expansion. Secondly I would want the plan to include an early capture of Madrid because it needs 2nd border expansion.

I understand this and think it is a good strategy. What I am having trouble understanding is, when we declare on Fred, how we are going to move reinforcement and replacement units south to Julius. The roads we need to use run right through Hamburg. In addition, how can we expect Asoka to follow us with units to capture cities if they get hung up in Fred's territory moving one tile per turn. The logistics seem to get tied up in a way that it will end up costing us turns.

Although it's tempting to put a stack into Roman territory now I remain a little puzzled about Asoka's ability to follow with units. When we have removed cultural defenses and reduced the number of defenders to one how do we handle the situation where it takes Asoka many turns to get down there (say if we start the war against Fred in the mean time and the German borders are closed to him). If Fred gets there first and takes the city we would be forced to declare on him and retake the city. How many units need to be left behind to handle this eventuality?

This is another part of the problem. If we take cities sequentially from Fred to the south, with an emphasis on Madrid, Asoka has to follow. We can leave Kyoto until last, while watching for a backstab, if we wish.

The logistics of this are much simpler, keep producing artillery and keep them moving in a steady stream to the south. They should be there when we need them and this will allow Asoka to move in this way as well. Like an inevitable tide, we keep washing over our opponents, hand in hand with Asoka.

 

[DJMGator13]

Regarding Gators plan I have a couple of things I would like to incorporate: First I would like to save Kyoto and possibly also Hamburg for late capture because they are both close to Beijing and can be attacked by units we build late and none of them are critical when it comes to border expansion. Secondly I would want the plan to include an early capture of Madrid because it needs 2nd border expansion.

Although it's tempting to put a stack into Roman territory now I remain a little puzzled about Asoka's ability to follow with units. When we have removed cultural defenses and reduced the number of defenders to one how do we handle the situation where it takes Asoka many turns to get down there (say if we start the war against Fred in the mean time and the German borders are closed to him). If Fred gets there first and takes the city we would be forced to declare on him and retake the city. How many units need to be left behind to handle this eventuality?

Answering the 2nd question first: we'd need to leave one artillery behind at each city to keep the city at one defender as Shannon suggested. As long as the AI doesn't draft and produce units we should be fine. I'm hoping I can move fast w/o much healing by using the injured units to take down the cultural defense and then attack with the healed ones. Leave a midrange injured unit for guard duty and then move on to next city.

Saving Kyoto & Hamburg would allow us to send the Kyoto Group staright for Madrid and then either Berlin or they could be used to reinforce the other two Groups (Sparta & Cuzco) in Roman lands. A 4th Group can easily be formed to go after Kyoto and Hamburg. Remains of all groups converge back towards Berlin.

A 4th Group and sending the Kyoto Group deeper south to start may be better in that we should be able to hit JC even harder and faster.

I'm not planning on playing until later in the day. Only thing I've done since the last save was to buy the map to confirm that Madrid wasn't a pile of dust.

 

[DJMGator13]

The logistics of this are much simpler, keep producing artillery and keep them moving in a steady stream to the south. They should be there when we need them and this will allow Asoka to move in this way as well. Like an inevitable tide, we keep washing over our opponents, hand in hand with Asoka.

What I'm doing is taking our current front line units (Sparta & Cuzco Groups) and leap frogging them to our most southern positions. Then Kyoto Group hits the mid section. While the 4th Group hits the closest cities.

This doesn't change the fact that Asoka is likely to capture the cities as he expands south and southwesternly on the map. But it makes better use of our troops and doesn't have us sitting around waiting for each city to fall one by one.

Another item to this plan is that as Asoka does take cities we can free up troops to either gift to him or to send overseas and start razing cities.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Answering the 2nd question first: we'd need to leave one artillery behind at each city to keep the city at one defender as Shannon suggested. As long as the AI doesn't draft and produce units we should be fine.

I think we must assume that the AI will build one or more units if Asoka doesn't show up fast. A wounded unit may not be able to defeat these fresh units.

Saving Kyoto & Hamburg would allow us to send the Kyoto Group staright for Madrid and then either Berlin or they could be used to reinforce the other two Groups (Sparta & Cuzco) in Roman lands. A 4th Group can easily be formed to go after Kyoto and Hamburg. Remains of all groups converge back towards Berlin.

The 3rd stack is not built yet so I was wondering if we should use the Cuzco stack - possibly reinforced a little - to go after Madrid and then move against Rome after. Third stack could go after Berlin. Many options to consider .

I'm not planning on playing until later in the day. Only thing I've done since the last save was to buy the map to confirm that Madrid wasn't a pile of dust.

I think it would be nice to get some feedback from CP and ShannonCT on these issues. Btw. how many turns remain of the turn set?