SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[Mesix]

BTW...using your research path (wheel>writing) I was able to get the Library built in 6 turns. To accomplish this the capitol was size 5 working cows, gold, clams, fish, and FPH. After the library was finished, the FPH was switched to a scientist.

 

[greatbeyond]

Mea culpa, I was confusing wonders per turn with the actual, wonders divided by turns. It is not the same thing but, I think it is still better to build lots of wonders ourselves. It requires balancing building with warfare. A lot of this depends on our world which won't be answered until we explore more.

I think our current plan puts off expansion for too long, though in Blubmuz's last test he has tested with 4 cities fairly early..

 

[Mesix]

IMO, early expansion requires the capitol to not build wonders early. Let the 2nd city build the Oracle and the 3rd city build the Pyramids. They will become specialized cities producing GP and GE respectively. I am in favor of building wonders that help to expand the specialized cities, especially HG and HS in the GE city.

We need to play a couple more turn sets before we get too carried away with our strategy discussion. Exploring and discovering more of the AI players will allow us to make more informed decisions. There seems to be a general consensus for the next turn set, so let's wait and see what happens with that. Whose turn is it to knock out some exploration and get the ball rolling in the right direction?

 

[Sweetacshon]

After the votes Culdeus is UP

Blubmuz, that has to be the shortest TS in history.

I think our current plan puts off expansion for too long, though in Blubmuz's last test he has tested with 4 cities fairly early..

That's a fair concern. Is early bureau worth it. I think so. I approve of the plan for the next TS, although am not convinced of the wheel. However, I would like to get people's opinions on sending the second workboat as a scout.

Judging by the results graphs, most teams got BW first, although not CRC, I think. (power spikes without culture spikes)

 

[Sweetacshon]

IMO, early expansion requires the capitol to not build wonders early. Let the 2nd city build the Oracle and the 3rd city build the Pyramids. They will become specialized cities producing GP and GE respectively. I am in favor of building wonders that help to expand the specialized cities, especially HG and HS in the GE city.The problem is that we don't have an adequately productive 3rd city.

We need to play a couple more turn sets before we get too carried away with our strategy discussion. Exploring and discovering more of the AI players will allow us to make more informed decisions. Ahem...workboat. There seems to be a general consensus for the next turn set, so let's wait and see what happens with that. Whose turn is it to knock out some exploration and get the ball rolling in the right direction?

Best to keep an eye on page 1 for this, as Blubmuz keep it updated.

 

[Mesix]

With MC we can build worksops for our 3rd city. It also allows us to build a forge and run an engineer in the city. With cows and fish (9 food from 2 tiles) we have enough food to grow and eventually support workshops and an engineer. Might it make more sense to switch the location of city #2 and city #3? We can chop 3 forests for the Oracle in either location and the city to the north would make a nice GP farm (or mesh of cottages and farms). The other city location has more hills and would make a better production center for building 3 wonders relatively early.

I agree with your plan to build a scouting workboat. The question is: when? Should the 2nd WB be used for scouting, or to develop the fish to the south of the capitol. Growth seems very important as does the food bonus for building settlers and workers.

 

[WastinTime]

I'm tellin' you that grassy spot in the jungle is something good (horse, copper, iron), so the 3rd city will be OK for hammers.

Workshops: In BTS, workshops have changed. At first, you get -1 food and only +1 hammer. Guilds gives hammers +1, Chemistry +1, and caste system +1 (and of course +1 food for state property)

I don't think the Pyramids will get built fast enough in the 2nd or 3rd city. I think I'd rather have an army.

 

[dutchfire]

I've had some good games with caste system workshops in BtS. Since slavery isn't as good as it was, workshops are a good alternative, it requires grasslands (which we have a lot) and guilds to get 13 tiles, like grassland hill mines.

 

[BLubmuz]

First off, we seem to be in 6, the other 4 members are away (well berserk will be back from his vacation soon).

Sweeta, not clear which is the shortest TS in history: you're probably confused by mine one. I played it only to see if we were on a island.

Not a hope to build pyramids in other city than capital.

But the cows-clams city can be good for the GLib, and the ivory-pig can build all the wonders.

In my test i built a forge and the Moai in the island city, and it's a decent city and a good GP farm.

To be clear: the 2nd WB is for the seafood, we need a 3rd one to scout.
Or, if we choose to follow my last attempt's strategy, we'll have a galley to do the task.
BTW i'm playing a good game with that start, but i'm still convinced it's risky.

But all this can be debated after next TS, it seems you all agree with the plan for this.

I've updated the next TS goals.
Now, if anyone wants play it, just post something here, i'll swap Culdeus.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Sweeta, not clear which is the shortest TS in history: you're probably confused by mine one. I played it only to see if we were on a island.
Exactly!Actually, I thought you'd continue for another 10 turns or so.

Not a hope to build pyramids in other city than capital.
Agreed.

But the cows-clams city can be good for the GLib, and the ivory-pig can build all the wonders.
I found it wasn't that good due to it's food shortage, but we can only try.

To be clear: the 2nd WB is for the seafood, we need a 3rd one to scout.
huh? Is that some sort of executive decision? I'd like to delay the second seafood resource in order to send that boat scouting for land, resources (metals, stone?), and most importantly who we're up against. What does everyone else think?

So who is up, then?

 

[WastinTime]

The 2nd seafood will help crank out the settlers/workers (on top of faster growth). I agree boat #3 scouts.

 

[MacBalt]

I'd like to delay the second seafood resource in order to send that boat scouting for land, resources (metals, stone?), and most importantly who we're up against. What does everyone else think?

I agree with Sweetaschon on finding a way to prioritize the workboat explorer. Nice tests on the CS slingshot though BLub -- I like that plan. Don't forget that city #3 will probably end up with more production than meets the eye, given that grassy patch. Can we wait a turnset to decide whether to pursue the Pyramids or build an army?

EDIT: X-post with WT. Guess someone needs to play test the two WB plans.

 

[BLubmuz]

Still not much activity

Well, if you think it's so important to scout with a WB, i'll try to squeeze one somewhere after the 2 and the warrior.

Also, since no one candidates to play this TS, i'll follow Sweeta's suggestion, and i'll finish mine, say until turn 25-26.

This will also speed up the discussion thanks to the time zones.

OK, TS played, the save.

the submission log

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 3360 BC to 2960 BC:


Turn 18, 3280 BC: You have discovered Fishing!
Turn 18, 3280 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs Suryavarman II'sScout (2.20)
Turn 18, 3280 BC: Combat Odds: 0.6%
Turn 18, 3280 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 18, 3280 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 18, 3280 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 18, 3280 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 18, 3280 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 18, 3280 BC: Suryavarman II's Scout is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 18, 3280 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 18, 3280 BC: Suryavarman II's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!

Turn 22, 3120 BC: Discoveries made by the Khmer Empire have boosted progress on their current research project.
Turn 22, 3120 BC: You have come 8? closer to a breakthrough on The Wheel

Turn 24, 3040 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!
Turn 24, 3040 BC: The borders of Fifthburg have expanded!
Turn 24, 3040 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Fifthburg. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

and the autolog

Spoiler :

Turn 17/500 (3320 BC) [22-Sep-2008 10:42:00]

IBT:

Turn 18/500 (3280 BC) [22-Sep-2008 10:42:20]
Tech learned: Fishing

IBT:
While defending in the wild, Scout defeats (0.87/1): Barbarian Wolf (Prob Victory: 99.4%)

Turn 19/500 (3240 BC) [22-Sep-2008 10:42:38]
Research begun: The Wheel (9 Turns)
Fifthburg begins: Work Boat (10 turns)
Fifthburg grows: 2

Turn 20/500 (3200 BC) [22-Sep-2008 10:43:09]

Turn 21/500 (3160 BC) [22-Sep-2008 10:43:36]
A Mine was built near Fifthburg

Turn 22/500 (3120 BC) [22-Sep-2008 10:43:42]

Turn 23/500 (3080 BC) [22-Sep-2008 10:44:10]

Turn 24/500 (3040 BC) [22-Sep-2008 10:44:19]
Tech learned: The Wheel
Fifthburg's borders expand
Fifthburg finishes: Work Boat

Turn 25/500 (3000 BC) [22-Sep-2008 10:44:31]
Research begun: Writing (9 Turns)
Fifthburg begins: Work Boat (6 turns)

Turn 26/500 (2960 BC) [22-Sep-2008 10:45:58]

And some screenies, not of much help. We're right South of the Equator, but the resources blobs point down. I remember once they always pointed to the Equator. I was beaten to a GH by Shaka, due to heal after the attack (can't see it when healing, or i'll took the risk) he popped a warrior.

Thanks to the "tech breakthrough" event we shave 1 turn for the wheel, looking at my tests autolog.
Now expect some defraud from the RNG.

According to the plan first WB is now on the point.
As you can see, no stone in sight.

 

[berserks01]

I'm back from my vacation. Please give me a couple of days to catch up on work and what look to be really good discussions going on.

 

[Mesix]

Wow...a lot of food and not many other resources. Once we get BW and IW we might find some metals mixed in though.

Since Shaka is likely to box us in by settling near the rice, I vote for an early axeman push. To accomplish this I recommend that we squeeze in BW ahead of the Myst-Priest Oracle techs (right after writing) and chop the Oracle in the 2nd city. With the event cutting our research time for the Wheel, we should still be in good shape to get the Oracle. We can then pump units out of the capitol provided we can link up copper.

 

[greatbeyond]

We might not have discussed it but the first WB should have immediately started working the clams. It will take 4 more turns to reach and start working the fish. I realize they give 1 more food but we have already lost 2 turns of +2 food for the Clams (it would have been 4 turns). This would make our Pop grow quicker. 2nd WB should go to the Fish. If we turn around, we can still gain 2 turns of +2Food. Of course this prevents us from exploring with the WB. However we will grow to Size 4 very fast and once we work the Fish we will be able to run our specialists or produce Settlers quickly.

I will upload a new save that has been edited to what we know and brought up to T26. I will also attach a save from our last stopping point in case I got something wrong.

 

[greatbeyond]

Here is the modified save at Turn 26.
We are the same but there isn't any sign of Shaka's Warrior near our Scout. For this reason i did not include the GH.

The second save is modified but is at the end of our previous TS in casse I have made a mistake, you can play it forward.

 

[dutchfire]

Dotmap:


Thoughts, comments? This one gets us 6 cities, but it's a bit cramped. Orange is only really possible once we've gotten rid of Shaka's culture, and blue would have to be settled soon to block Shaka.

 

[BLubmuz]

Mesix, the event has cut 1 turn, not 7.
If we take the risk to not build the Oracle in capital (plan A) is far better settle on marble and research sailing/masonry (plan B) than chop the Oracle (plan C).

It's a risk: if we decide to take it, let's take it big: plan B is by far the best one (IMHO, of course).
Another big counter to plan B is NO academy: we must burn the GS on Math.
But since i think to the capital as a production powerhouse more than a science one, this will mot make a big difference in the mid-long term.

And, be assured, this game will go until turn 250-300, it's impossible build all the wonders. I went ahead with the "plan B" one, and it's tough. I'm not talking of missing one or two, but some 10 (count them and you will agree).

GB, my best attempts was with first WB on fish. Why?
You won't work clams until both WB are finished, and this way you can have both WBs in place at the same time.
If first Wb goes to clams, it stays unworked until capital reaches size 3, unless you don't stop to work cows (same food) or gold
Trust me. Make some simulation and you'll agree. Please don't forget i ran no less than 20 attempts to find the best MM.

Dutch, Xposted.... no, i don't like your placement, it's a bunch of crappy cities.

 

[WastinTime]

@Mesix: I'd rather Shaka settle some more and we get more free cities. Rushing over to the rice city with Axes doesn't seem very efficient. It's not a good city and it's too far away. Worse, if we go BronzeW and don't get bronze.

@GB: Our city is only size 2 (working cow/gold). This is a good time to go around to the fish.

@dutchfire: That's good use of the map tiles, but doesn't create very good production cities.

@Blub: Please do not even consider lightbulbing math. My head will explode.