SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[MacBalt]

Sounds good. I'd let the marble workers finish the workshop though.

It does seem a shame to let it go with just three more turns to go. How critical is the rush on the Pyramids? Does anyone know about how many finished chops it is going to take after the stone is hooked and the forge is online?

 

[greatbeyond]

You're suggestions look good Balthalion. I think it could serve as some therapy for your other woes.

I'll examine the save a little closer and see what else I can come up with.


I've been reading everything all along. I don't believe in posting unless I have something of value. I hope I can come up with something of value.

As for our troubles, be careful of what you wish for, you might just get it. The thinking of some here reminds me of the the period from 1910 to 1917 and 1933 to 1940. Those that fail to learn the lessons history teaches are doomed to repeat them
What's the difference between a politician and a bottom dwelling scum sucker.. one is just a fish.

 

[WastinTime]

[*] Is there a better approach to the 20-40 turn libraries in Marbles and Stoneopolis?

Are you suggesting Slavery?

Marbles and Stoneopolis will soon have some hammer tiles to work. They just haven't grown yet, but will fast.

 

[WastinTime]

If ToA in parma will arrive at the same time mids in 5burg, we can consider to build it.
We're 8 turns to machinery, we can start build maces like mad.

I suggest a quick diversion to construction, for cats, then straight to Optics.

We can't do ToA until after the Prophet comes from Parma.

Once we can see that our mace construction is nearing the end, we can consider construction. Lets hold off as long as possible and probably get it free from the other side of the world. I still suggest machinery->optics

 

[WastinTime]

PPP suggestions:

Machinery->optics (not construction--see above)

After moving the workers, let's send the galley around north to Shaka's land. We'll need that and one more for protection when the war starts.

I could see Engineering doing a forge before the granary. Maybe not if the granary is that quick. I want a GE from that city, so I don't agree with GLib going there. Sci Method is closer than you think (obsoleting the GLib). Probably around t150 if we go for Communism/StateProperty.

 

[MacBalt]

PPP suggestions:

Machinery->optics (not construction--see above)

Cool. Maces first, cats can wait. Will change it back to Optics after Machinery.

After moving the workers, let's send the galley around north to Shaka's land. We'll need that and one more for protection when the war starts.

Good idea. I'm also going to take culdeus' advice and just finish the workshop before moving the workers to the mainland unless I hear an argument that the chopping just can't wait.

I could see Engineering doing a forge before the granary. Maybe not if the granary is that quick. I want a GE from that city, so I don't agree with GLib going there. Sci Method is closer than you think (obsoleting the GLib). Probably around t150 if we go for Communism/StateProperty.

Not sure where the GLib concern is coming from, but at 7 per turn it looks like a granary will take about 5 turns to complete. A forge pops up at taking 18 turns. Times will be shorter with extra pop working in the forest and/or new mine, but it still looks to me like going granary first is better. If we do the granary first, we'll be getting its benefit later when the worker(s) become available (post-pyramids) to help chop the forge along. Going forge first will result in both buildings arriving late instead of just one. Also, running an Engineer first, it seems to me, would drag our growth rate down while he is employed and possibly deprive us of an extra population point or two that might otherwise be ready to work the fields and mines to support that expensive elite citizen. (I doubt the turn delay on the GE will be all that long anyway if the granary can be done in 5 turns or less.) I haven't actually run any test, so I'm sure I'm probably missing something and I'm happy to go forge first if someone can help me see better here...

As for our troubles, be careful of what you wish for, you might just get it. The thinking of some here reminds me of the the period from 1910 to 1917 and 1933 to 1940. Those that fail to learn the lessons history teaches are doomed to repeat them

Lately I've been more worried about the lessons of the roaring twenties and all the fun that began in 1929.

 

[MacBalt]

If BLub gives me a green light and no other concerns come up I'll plan to play about 12 hours from now. That will be about 9am Arizona time -- GMT-7, I think.

Pending BLub's approval, this will be my "Got it."

Proposed PPP:

1. TURNS TO PLAY: Finish 95, play 96-105, stop before ending turn 105.
2. RESEARCH PATH: Finish Machinery, begin Optics.
3. INHERITED TURN: Cancel orders.
4. BUILD ORDERS:
   • Fifthburg: Finish Forge (5t), begin Pyramids.
   • Parma: Finish Library (3t), begin Granary, then Barracks.
   • Marbles: Building Library (20t).
   • Engineering: Finish Library (3t), begin Granary, then Forge.
   • Stoneopolis: Building Library (40t).
5. CITY PRIORITIES:
   • Fifthburg: Prioritize Hammers. Do not let pop grow to size 8. Work current tiles.
   • Parma: Prioritize Hammers & GPP (Priest). Keep food growth set at least at +1. Work current tiles.
   • Marbles: Prioritize Food until max happy (size 6). Then Workers & Settlers? Work current tiles.
   • Engineering: Prioritize Food until max happy (size 6). Needs mine on hill 2S1E (& roads). Work current tiles.
   • Stoneopolis: Prioritize Food. Hook Stone first, then pasture sheep. Work current tiles.
6. WORKERS:
   • Worker 1 (in Marbles): Help finish workshop. Load onto galley & move to Fifthburg. Pre-mine forest hills (river first).
   • Worker 2 (near Marbles): Finish workshop. Load onto galley & move to Fifthburg. Pre-mine forest hills.
   • Worker 3 (on Iron): Move to pre-mined hill & finish mine. Continue to Fifthburg for Pyramid chops.
   • Worker 4 (on Stone): Finish Quarry (3t) & road (2t). Pasture Sheep.
7. MILITARY: Move missionary to spy on Shaka’s territory. Move galley to post on coast tile near Shaka.
8. TECHNOLOGY TRADING:
   • No trades likely this turnset.
   • No trades for Agriculture or Archery.
   • Technology gifts? – None this turnset.
9. RESOURCE TRADING: Shaka will trade rice, but we have nothing to give him yet (maybe sheep later).
10. CIVICS CHANGES: None this turnset.
11. POLITICAL DEMANDS:
    • Give Shaka what he wants, including techs, resources, and/or convert to Confucianism.
    • Do not give in to any other demands that would require anarchy (religion or civics change).
    • Give in to all other demands for resources or techs.
    • Do not join any wars.
12. FINAL PLAY NOTES: If any significant new unexpected event occurs, stop and consult the team about our options.

 

[WastinTime]

You mentioned not growing to size 8. Remember that in 5 turns (forge) we get +1 happy. Confu is another possible happy, and then there's the +3 happy from the pyramids soon. So be sure to keep the food comin'. The capitol is working both its seafood, yes?

 

[HolyHandGrenade]

@WT: I don't think a gift would mean 10 turns of peace. That'd be pretty exploitive, since you could give everyone your world map every 10 turns, and avoid wars altogether.

lurkers comment: I just made some tests in the current Major 36 gauntlet. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7321413&postcount=93
So your further observations may be based on the results there

 

[BLubmuz]

lurkers comment: I just made some tests in the current Major 36 gauntlet. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7321413&postcount=93
So your further observations may be based on the results there

HHG, thanks for your contribution.
I remember i read your post days ago.

Surely the gift does not prevent you to DoW the beneficiary, but maybe ties this last one?

How can we be 100% sure of this?

Balth, green light on!
just:
don't give Shaka alpha or MC
we need a trireme somewhere to protect our nets, before the war starts.

 

[dutchfire]

@Balthalion: Please check Shaka for "I've got enough on my hands right now" messages every now and then.

HHG, thanks for your contribution.
I remember i read your post days ago.

Surely the gift does not prevent you to DoW the beneficiary, but maybe ties this last one?

How can we be 100% sure of this?

Look at the code?

 

[BLubmuz]

@Balthalion: Please check Shaka for "I've got enough on my hands right now" messages every now and then.

good point

Look at the code?

Where?
i mean is in the XMLs i need to look or in the python? which file?

Don't forget some spear in the stacks, Shaka will surely have mounted units.
Without constr and HBR we cannot build our powerful UU.

 

[dutchfire]

Well, Shaka usually has quite a lot of impi's hasn't he? In that case, axes would be best.


I suppose it's somewhere in the SDK code, but I know absolutely nothing about that. I believe WT does know some C++ though.

 

[greatbeyond]

I'm going to look a little further ahead and think about what strategy to win by.
I think we need to develop the plan and then stick with it and not get distracted.
I had thought the best plan was to take out Shaka within the next two turnsets and then start teching forcefully. Follow this up with either a Space Ship ready to go or Conquest, quickly conquering the rest of the globe. We could just keep the cities with wonders and raze everything else. The SR, if it was all ready except the last part, means we don't need to eliminate all the other Civs or worry about keeping and growing cities. Conquest means we don't waste production on SS parts and the wait after it is launched.

On the other hand...
One of the possibilities that hit me this morning was the AP win. After BOTM10 Diety where Gosha pulled it off very early (20BC), I am wondering if it isn't the quickest way to win. It would entail spreading our religion and then having a second religion to switch to before the AP is built. I have tried the AP option before but never even came close. Of course, I didn't use the religion switch trick. We have the required three civs, and can spread our religion to them. If we can't contact the other Civs without Astro, then they can't interfere.The only consideration here is that we would have to build wonders like crazy very soon to make the win ratio high. The other trick to this might be getting the vote all set and as we would be the only candidate, we could "not vote" for ourselves until we were ready.

Here is one of the quick links to how Gosha190 did it. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7336921&postcount=36

 

[culdeus]

Just double up the workers on the workshop. Only take 2 turns that way.

 

[culdeus]

I'm going to look a little further ahead and think about what strategy to win by.
I think we need to develop the plan and then stick with it and not get distracted.

I think the AP victory you describe is worth considering. Especially since worst case it just counts as one less wonder to capture. I still think though long term under a monarch game we should be able to get a global conquest at will versus a monarch AI even with the hammer distraction of all those wonders if we pick the ones that will help us to that goal long term.

I think we hope that J doesn't build any wonders and if we get really, really lucky shaka does in the next little bit here. Take shaka's land and then raze J to the earth. He has a few nice city sites, but nothing worth the trouble really. Easy firewalls can be setup for the barbarian horde from that end of the island. I think most of us have probably forgotten what a mace rush can do to an early AD monarch AI. (knife meet butter)

Conquest of the continent can come by way of cavalry perhaps. I guess I should figure out what our UU is so many leaders now I get confused.

 

[WastinTime]

We'll be lucky to have 1 maceman after the next TS. We might have 1/2 of our army by the 2nd TS. If we want a swift war, I'm seeing the 3rd TS as still just army build-up, and getting them in place.

I'm going to try to stay out of the military execution. I have my own style, but I really want to see other war strategies. I hope we have some good generals on our team. Maybe some of our lurker team members will have to be brought out of retirement.

The victory discussion is interesting, but I see you didn't mention domination. If we owned our entire continent. How many more tiles do we need? What if we also owned all the larger islands? How close are we?

 

[WastinTime]

I guess I should figure out what our UU is so many leaders now I get confused.

I think he was being sarcastic about our "powerful" UU. It does almost nothing more than the regular war elephant does. (I think it attacks mounted units first, but only in open territory, not cities.) Yes, we'd probably build 1 if we could, but that's about it.

 

[culdeus]

We'll be lucky to have 1 maceman after the next TS. We might have 1/2 of our army by the 2nd TS. If we want a swift war, I'm seeing the 3rd TS as still just army build-up, and getting them in place.

I'm going to try to stay out of the military execution. I have my own style, but I really want to see other war strategies. I hope we have some good generals on our team. Maybe some of our lurker team members will have to be brought out of retirement.

The victory discussion is interesting, but I see you didn't mention domination. If we owned our entire continent. How many more tiles do we need? What if we also owned all the larger islands? How close are we?

some war discussion

Spoiler :

I need to do a few things. First figure out the mids turn. Then figure out max hammers for capital and parma after improving the hills. Then figure out whip interval for marble and engineering. I do not think we will need catapults for Shaka's outer cities. In fact, I'm certain of it.

I think we can DOW on shaka with as few as 3 mace's and our axe and spear and get the isthmus city which will have at most 2 archers and some of his UUs which will just melt under any mace pressure.

I also need to see where his city 3 is. I can't recall if it's towards J or down the middle finger. While his isthmus city falls we'll have another 5-7 maces on the way through whip/chopping and that should be enough to finish off his capital. Can get some techs for peace or just finish him. 9 total maces should do it 7 in a pinch.

Can then change off slavery after whipping a caravel in shaka's capital build a few cats and get ready for J. So it's a matter of getting rapid scouting.

I haven't seen horses anywhere near except one of those north islands. Can we get some of them built for the J war for some mop-up XP for later upgrades easily? Does S have some?

Now to the VC dom/conquest. I think it will depend greatly on the size of the AI's island and the shape of the island. The difficulty of them reaching our side of the world is in our favor for conquest and domination vis-a-vis the population limit. There doesn't need to be any big rush to decide this except if want a peaceful late victory with lots of wonders or a bloody early victory with lots of war. I would still think we would be able to name our own date easier with conquest than any other VC. Just pinning some helpless tundra bound AI city down and wonder rush seems appropriate.

I'll leave the AP decision to someone else that knows more about it and I can certainly be talked into it as a third alternative.

All I know is I tried to get a test somewhere in the ballpark of here and I couldn't get the Oracle and GLH built before the AI in the turns we did so we are really lucky in that way. Our execution is probably about ideal at this point. Get the mids and we'll be ready to really get rolling.

 

[culdeus]

I think he was being sarcastic about our "powerful" UU. It does almost nothing more than the regular war elephant does. (I think it attacks mounted units first, but only in open territory, not cities.) Yes, we'd probably build 1 if we could, but that's about it.

Yeah I had to look it up. Haven't ever built one or noticed it in use. Oof. That's a drag. A special WE with nice stuff could have come in handy for the J war.