SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[MacBalt]

The capitol is working both its seafood, yes?

Rats. I forgot about this even with the reminder. Oh well -- I guess it doesn't hurt us quite as much since the mids got away. Still, the next player should address this mistake.

Edit: Also, I forgot to think about our espionage points. They are all set to Shaka, and that seems well enough, but Shaka will be dead before too long. The next player should consider when to change the allocation to Joao.

 

[WastinTime]

as soon as we can see what Shaka is researching, we dial it back
Espionage is mostly useless, but this seems like a useful thing

 

[WastinTime]

HG will be lost too if we don't get it now. It may be too late already. I didn't even want it, but we need the GE points I think.

I really don't want the GLib now that we lost mids. I didn't even want it before.

We don't need to try and pop GS's for Astron. It won't take long to research.

I'm also shocked we lost the mids. I bet other teams will see it built later.
I'm hoping we can make up for the happiness loss by getting the caravel over to the other AI and trading for gems, silver, etc. I didn't want to run many specialists anyway, so maybe we'll have constitution later and can run rep when we're ready to have specialists.

 

[MacBalt]

I'm also shocked we lost the mids. I bet other teams will see it built later.

Yeah, this is weird, so I'd guess it is something of a set-up and other teams might get it at about the same time we did. So... we need to find a way to keep caravels on the fast track and at the same time kill Shaka and Joao as quickly as possible. That doesn't sound like too tall an order. At any rate, it should help us feel better about our, er, situation.

 

[culdeus]

I think I'm going to work on one of the testmaps for a good war simulation. His land is not setup well for defense. Taking the isthmus city puts the capital only 4 tiles away putting our capital 9 turns to his prior to capture. The BTS AI focuses so much effort on mixed stacks that a couple of spears might help. I still think short of him making a DOW on us and him splitting up between engineering and parma the land he's got is too easy to bring down. Almost like they were throwing us a bone of sorts.

Isthums - Capital - Ceasefire regroup - split up to mop up - RIP Done in or around 300AD.

 

[WastinTime]

I don't like how the cleanup will go in 3 directions.

 

[BLubmuz]

Updated page 1, reports and roster.

Ocean trades are only possible with Astro, so we need the caravels "only" to know our opponents, to trade techs and to gain the circumnavigation bonus.

There're 2 interesting wonders, if we skeep the GLib: Parthenon and HG.
Just remember that we have to capture any wonder we don't build.

War with Shaka is the priority, to be safe and to gain good land.
This said, there's place to build a Baray+HG in Fifthburg before maces?
We can build a couple spears and a couple archers before them, they're cheap and useful. I expect some mounted unit from Shaka.

Decisions
a) research:
1) finish machinery > compass (cheap harbors) > optics
2) finish machinery > Aestetics > Lit > compass > optics

b) HG in Fifthburg: (if we wait the war it can be late)
1) Yes
2) No

My opinions:
a) optics in the BC is just great, we need those wonders and we can wait, so i vote for 2.
b) now or never more. I vote 1) Yes.

The continental cities must build forge/barracks, then units.
If we already have barracks, some unit then forges, maces are expensives.

We also need roads to connect Shaka's rice city, in thoer words to speed up our invasion.
I doubt shaka will give techs for peace, we must try to finish him in one shot.

A garrison of archer+spear+axe is enough to keep the rice city, the main stack has to go straight to Ulundi, a wonderful city, then drive south, there should be a city on the southern isthmus.

For now, bring the missionary East to scout.

 

[Sweetacshon]

So we fell for the old "underestimate the monarch AI" trick.

When were we ever going to build the HG in 5th? I thought the plan was to go in Engineering, hence the name. 5thburg, btw can get the Colossus (not that useful for us, but add in those GM points) out in about 8 turns, add to that the impending forest chops, and it should be quick. Be careful of those mine/chops, actually. Currently they are destined to go into a trireme, which is a bit wasteful. Make sure they are stopped. Also, machinery is in 3, but we don't have the iron hooked up!! Something to be rectified, I suppose.

We really have to decide what wonders we are aiming for, and where they are going, as everyone is suggesting quite a few different options. Apart from the HG, Chichen was mentioned for Parma, but I'd prefer troops. After that we have a bit of a break until optics. After that we could go Aesth/Lit for things like Parthenon for +50%GPP and GL for free scientists, or Theology for the AP, or even to engineering for Notre Dame for +2, which would be nice now we cant go rep. On that, I add in another question, are we switching to slavery??

I am all for continuing to optics asap, so we can see the world and find out who is the master builder OS. I still envision letting one good AI do the building for us while we clean the rest up, taking him/her out at an opportune time.

BTW, espionage I find to be useful at times, especially sending in a spy for city revolt the first or second city in a conquest which allows the army to roll on more quickly. In this case, tho, we can see Shaka's research soon, and if we add a few turns to Joao, we can see his demographics.

 

[Mesix]

I think we should build HG in Engineering after the forge is finished. If we can get HG and HS in there, that would be great. If we can only get one plus the IW national wonder, we can run enough engineers with a lot of farms to generate GE.

Too bad about the missed opportunity for Pyramids.

How fast are we going to war with Shaka? Should I start ramping up forces and DOW Shaka, or is this a longer term goal?

 

[WastinTime]

I keep hearing, every wonder we miss is another we have to capture. I don't see it that way. I'm thinking all the wonders will be in about 6 cities (plus a few shrines will get stuck in fringe cities.) After we absorb our continent, we can do surgical strikes on the wonders cities. Missing Glib, parthenon, HG, aren't going to add any new cities to the capture list. I think HG will never be done in time in Engineering. Either we chop it out like we were going to do for pyramids, or pass on it. Now that the pyramids are done, the "stone AI" will have the HG shortly.

Now that we have a forge in the capitol, are we going to run and engineer? If so, just make sure the capitol will not pass Parma in birth points.

So I vote a1.
b) I don't care as much, but probably b2. Our military continues to be delayed.

 

[Mesix]

I want to start cranking units out of Fifthberg.

I think that HG is possible in Engineering. There is good chance that we have a tech lead and the AI who build the Pyramids does not have Mathematics yet. We rushed for the CS sling and Math was part of our rush after all.

Once we get the forge done and a couple of mines, Engineering will have decent production. There isn't much chopping to be had there, but we can build a couple of farms and run an engineer for a couple of extra hammers. To be honest, I think that we can afford to let the Library come later in Engineering. There isn't much research there yet, and the production will be better spent on the Forge.

 

[Mesix]

Actually, after downloading the latest save, I realized that the library is already finished and the granry is almost done too. We could have had a forge finished and a barry started by now and be on the way to the HG by now, but hind sight is 20/20.

I still think that we can get them in time if we make it a priority. The Iron mine is in place and the hills to the SE can be mined for additional research. There are 2 forests to chop once we start building the HG as well.

 

[WastinTime]

Plenty of food in capitol to run an engineer. Capitol needs cottages on the grass/river ASAP. No farms, ever.

 

[WastinTime]

Hey, we forgot to put a military unit in Marbles. Let's sail a warrior over there.

 

[WastinTime]

A forge in Engineering would only have 64/120 hammers had we skipped Library/Granary. It would not be done, and we would not be on to a Baray.

 

[BLubmuz]

If we want the HG it can be built only in capital.

Remembering my test game, Parma needs a farm to grow, we must choose the shortest path.

True, most or all the wonders and the early religions Shrines will be in Capitals.

But some are quite useful:

Parthenon = +50% GP birth rate (i don't care GA points)
GLib = 2 free scientists + 2 GS points

Sweeta, for maces copper is enough, iron is only for Samurais. But better road it.

I'll put your votes on post #3, on your head they'll be.

I opened the save and:
Parma: ok finish axe, start forge (14 turns), then barracks
Engineering: switch to forge (14 turns), then barracks, granary can wait
Marbles: finish library, start Moai
Stone: switch to WB working quarry
5thburg:
1) if we want the HG stop mining (road the hills), switch to baray (4 turns), then the HG, probably 4 turns with chopping.
2) if we want the Colossus, 6 turns, probably 4 with chopping
3) if we wanna both, they can be done in some 12-13 turns

Parma needs food, we must clear that jungle on Elephants, then we can farm south of the lake, to bring water 2S and to help the forge, or the barracks
Eng. can build the forge faster if the hill is mined, and also needs a road, like the cows and the tile 1W of cows must be roaded and probably farmed
Pigs must be connected (no road there)

Once axe is done, move Parma's warrior in 5burg, load 5burg's one on the galley and bring him in Marbles.

Next TS will be a build phase, maces are out of reach without forges.
So we can build our own useful wonders in Fifthburg

Mesix, in other words you'll have to build a lot of structures to afford the war.
The TS after yours we'll build some unit, and we'll be ready around turn 120-125.
But please wait the votes before start.

 

[MacBalt]

EDIT: X-post with BLub.

Be careful of those mine/chops, actually. Currently they are destined to go into a trireme, which is a bit wasteful. Make sure they are stopped. Also, machinery is in 3, but we don't have the iron hooked up!! Something to be rectified, I suppose.

Yes, when I couldn't find the Pyramids in the build options I just hit trireme as a placeholder and then saved the game. Probably should have put the Colossus there instead. I considered hooking the iron, but thought chopping the Pyramids was urgent and didn't believe we needed the iron right away because macemen can be built with copper, which we already have hooked up. Did I miss something?

I keep hearing, every wonder we miss is another we have to capture. I don't see it that way. I'm thinking all the wonders will be in about 6 cities (plus a few shrines will get stuck in fringe cities.)

I agree with this assessment. It looks like there is at least one wonder hog on the other continent. For me, that clarifies the nature of the game somewhat -- we can't play a builder game if we want to be competitive; we're going to have to play a military game with a rush to Optics & Astronomy. The only good reason to build more wonders, IMHO, is for the Great Person Points.

I want to start cranking units out of Fifthberg.

I agree. I think we ought to use our time advantage with early maces now, while it really counts.

I think that HG is possible in Engineering. There is good chance that we have a tech lead and the AI who build the Pyramids does not have Mathematics yet. We rushed for the CS sling and Math was part of our rush after all.

This is a good argument, but I would still say it would be better to make it a question of whether we build HG in Fifthburg or not at all. The Wonder Hog on the other continent is a danger, yes, but I'd really rather have fifthburg producing units than be stuck in a long wonder build. I think we need to get rid of Shaka now (and hopefully Joao too).

Decisions
a) research:
1) finish machinery > compass (cheap harbors) > optics
2) finish machinery > Aestetics > Lit > compass > optics

b) HG in Fifthburg: (if we wait the war it can be late)
1) Yes
2) No

I vote for (1) on research (Compass --> Optics).
I vote for (2) on HG anywhere (No -- we should chop out a mace army ASAP).

Just my two cents -- I could go either way on (2) especially, depending on how long it would take to build. (Those GE GPPs would be nice...)

 

[WastinTime]

Parma will grow fine once we fire the priest (after we get a GProphet). I'd do cottages there too.

GLib could be obsolete ~30 turns after we build it if we go for StateProperty. Maybe we'll go towards democracy (statue of liberty) instead. That can be discussed later.

 

[MacBalt]

Parthenon = +50% GP birth rate (i don't care GA points)
GLib = 2 free scientists + 2 GS points

I might have been tempted by the Parthenon, but don't forget we traded our Marble to Shaka on turn 95, which means no +50% for our chops until turn 105. (It seemed like such a good idea at the time... )

 

[BLubmuz]

I might have been tempted by the Parthenon, but don't forget we traded our Marble to Shaka on turn 95, which means no +50% for our chops until turn 105. (It seemed like such a good idea at the time... )

Don't worry, we need to finish machnery and research Aestetics before that... but seems we are plnty of time, we'll go for optics instead.

Hey, every turn we delay the Parthenon is a delay on the GP.
What about this?

Every turn we delay optics we delay our curiosity.
Or you think someone will beat us in circumnavigation in the BC?

Blub for president