SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

I'm fine with this one too, but the decision has to be clear.

After the capture of Dehli (but we can do some forecast even now) we'll must try to calculate:
1) when (which turn) we suppose we can win by domination, how many tiles we need and so on,
2) how many wonders and turns we need to maximize our turns/wonder rate see 1)

The target of those calculations is to determine if we need some milking before our final push to dom or if just a quick dom is enough to assure a good wonders/turn rate.
In this last case, we have not to worry about GP.
Mining inc is assured, the other Corps can arrive too late if we can have a quick domination.

Mesix, please post a detailed PPP before begin to play.
I'll do the same after your TS.

If you got problems i can swap.

Xposted... no, i agree with your XP plan.
Your numbers are correct, too. When a unit is upgradred it retains 10 XP.
If is 10/17 is OK, the bad thing is when you find 10/23 or so...
Only the GG units retain all their XP. BTW our spear can be a rifle for free, and i guess he can attack often.

 

[Mesix]

I suggested that civic plan, but by the end of my post, I convinced myself to hold off on pacif until later. I'm OK with caste, but be sure and do one last round of slavery on most cities! (not the capitol)

The Dogpile is a problem because of the loss of trade routes, not fear.

Marbles is too random for me, maybe if we get the GE next, we'll think about it.

I agree that CS is a good move. I will slave in several cities before switching civics as you suggest. I agree with your assessment that Pacif will reduce our trade routes considerably. I am also concerned that our initial force will not be strong enough to hold Delhi if 3-4 Civs DOW us in retalliation. Once we get reenforcements we should mop up the other continent without much problem provided we keep our tech lead. We may need to upgrade again to Infantry and/or augment with some advanced mounted units later on to finish the job.

 

[Mesix]

I plan to put of my TS for tomorrow to allow more time for discussion.

What is the consensus on NE? It appears that the two most popular options are Engineering and Marbles. I already know the pluses and minuses of each choice...can I get an up or down vote on where to put it?

 

[berserks01]

What's the GP rate per turn at Marbles? If it isn't that great, and it'll only take ~20 turns to take Delhi, maybe it might be better to wait and build it there? We're already assured that Delhi has an insane GP rate due to its high number of Wonders, and that rate will go up with Caste.

 

[MacBalt]

Marbles is too random for me, maybe if we get the GE next, we'll think about it.

I'm not sure I understand this comment. Why is Marbles more "random" than anywhere else? Does it already have some GP contamination (beyond what the NE would itself give) -- more than anywhere else, I mean?

EDIT: Okay, I checked the save and I think I understand now. The Moai Statues come with that damn +1 prophet point tacked onto them. Arg. I *think* I still lean toward Marbles, but that is a real bugger. At least it's not +2 prophet though... Going back to look for better options abroad too, just in case...

I will consider letting some of the Macemen attack an additional time to reach another level before upgrading. In the end, all of our experienced Macemen should be 10 exp Rifelmen though.

Does anyone disagree with this plan?

I'm sure you'll be smart about not missing any easy promotions we've got left before upgrading our macemen.

 

[MacBalt]

What's the GP rate per turn at Marbles? If it isn't that great, and it'll only take ~20 turns to take Delhi, maybe it might be better to wait and build it there? We're already assured that Delhi has an insane GP rate due to its high number of Wonders, and that rate will go up with Caste.

A few random Great Persons will be fine in the beginning because we still need scientists, merchants and an artist, but toward the end we'll need to go specifically for whatever Corporation slots we haven't filled. That means we'll need to have as uncontaminated a gene pool as possible in our final (and hopefully most productive) GP city -- which I'm thinking should probably be the city with the National Epic, no?

 

[MacBalt]

IWhy is Marbles more "random" than anywhere else? Does it already have some GP contamination (beyond what the NE would itself give) -- more than anywhere else, I mean?

EDIT: Okay, I checked the save and I think I understand now. The Moai Statues come with that damn +1 prophet point tacked onto them. Arg. I *think* I still lean toward Marbles, but that is a real bugger. At least it's not +2 prophet though... Going back to look for better options abroad too, just in case...

Okay, here is an idea outside of the box... What about Ulundi? Yes, I know it has an academy, but hear me out. With three clams, rice, and many (9) farmable grassland tiles it could actually have more GP production potential than Marbles. [Edit: Yes, it does: 9 vs. 7 specialists possible.] Plus, it has no wonder contamination and has already been working on a scientist with no gene pool contamination. While we run scientists it could still be a significant producer of beakers, but toward the end (when we'll need it most to get the right Great Person) we'll probably need it less for science anyway.

The only other potential options I noticed were Knossos (fish, clam, pig), Athens (2 clam, rice, cow), Bibracte (2 clam, corn, cow +gold & farmable grass but +2 Artist contamination from the Mausoleum of Maussollos), Guimaras (Sheep, Deer, Crab), a spot on the island West of Guimaras with 2 fish and a sheep, and the spot 1W of Numidian (we'd have to raise it) with sheep, deer (on tundra), fish, and 6 farmable grass tiles.

I'm thinking Ulundi might be worth converting.

 

[WastinTime]

Assuming we get a GE in ~5 turns and a GM from 5th in ~15 turns, we only need one GM and one GA. (cus we get a free GS and i doubt we'll build the 2nd GS corp.) To me, it's obvious that the only city we want to boost extra GP out of is Engineering for extra GE's. We can easily guarantee 1 more GM. The only possible use I see for the NE (other than Engineering) is for a pure artist city, so we don't miss that GArtist.

Anyway...for this TS, let's hold off on it and see what pops out of Eng.

I'm getting the feeling y'all think the NE is going to produce 5 extra GP. It is not. It will make one additional GP. If it makes 2 it would be a miracle. It doesn't help to put it in marbles for one more random GMan.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Checking in. The discussion is good, and the play good too (disregarding the GM ) I'm actually still away, so cn't check the save, but the details on MMing have been well discussed.

I'd be happy enough to halt the NE decision til after we see if we get a GE. Perhaps it won't make a difference, but let's maintain flexibility.

One thing I noticed:

State Religion Change: Joao II(Portugal) from 'Confucianism' to 'Hinduism'

Any addition DoW from us will now give us negative modifiers with the other AI. It's something to keep in mind when strategising the Joao war. On this, are we willin to leave him alive as a vassal in the SW? I've forgotten what the terrain is like down there.

Has anyone done a tile count or at least have a rough idea of what we'll need for a dom win?

 

[MacBalt]

To me, it's obvious that the only city we want to boost extra GP out of is Engineering for extra GE's.

Ha! I'm glad it's "obvious" to you! I think I'm finally catching up now. I was expecting the scientist from Physics, but completely missed the merchant situation in Fifth. Some questions: Did you factor in pacifism or leave it out? The corporation we'll miss will be Standard Ethanol (Plastics), right? Is it really that far out of reach? Civilized Jewelers (Mass Media) and the UN get prioritized because they are so much cheaper?

 

[WastinTime]

I wasn't figuring in Pacifism to get our minimum GP.

I'm not sure we'll go for either GS corps. Rocketry is the other one which would need artill too. Researching 2 techs to get 1 wonder won't pay off unless we can't win when we want to and end up researching to rocketry anyway.

MassMedia gets us 2 wonders, so yea, it's gets priority over: Plastics which also needs industrialism, and yea, 3GD is a biggie.

I'm betting we won't be able to get domination fast enough and end up researching these, so we should try for another GS. (hopefully the extra GE's will allow us to get 3GD in time.)

 

[Sweetacshon]

I wasn't figuring in Pacifism to get our minimum
I'm betting we won't be able to get domination fast enough and end up researching these, so we should try for another GS. (hopefully the extra GE's will allow us to get 3GD in time.)

Yep, this would be wise in case weare struggling to dominate.

 

[BLubmuz]

3GD?
A GE can contribute only for about an half of that monster.
No, i think we must try to win right after Radio (2W) or MM (3W if we have a GA).

NE in Ulundi can be a good choice and prolly it needs less turn to be built.

 

[greatbeyond]

I have played several games going for Maximum GP. It is essential to go Pacifism and CS. We could also throw in Mercantilism which gives us 1 free specialist per city. On the downside, you don't get any foreign trade routes. However, if we get enough Banks/Markets/Grocers it isn't going to matter. As Balthalion notes it is possible to run 9 specialists in Ulundi. All other things being equal, the NE should be in the city that can run the largest number of specialists, That is why I suggested the LH in Ulundi and irrigating some of the tiles. It is possible to get lots of GP with the appropriate Civics.
One reason to place the NE in Engineering is to boost the number of GEs we get. They are invaluable in rushing the remaining Wonders. No matter what city it is in, it should be maximized for growth and excess food. WT was my inspiration for this. After seeing the one example he posted, I tried it in the BOTM11 tests I did and was able to get 12 Specialists. Not as many as he did, but it opened my eyed to GP production.
The next useful GP is a GS to speed research. to get us way ahead of the AI.

I'm not that sure that anyone should be so worried about having FR Vs Pacifism because of the different religion factor. If we are strong enough we don't care that anyone else is pissed at us. In addition, I think the "You declared war on our friend" gives you enough negatives that the additional fact that you have a different religion than them is not as important.

As far as how far we'll have to tech; that depends on how fast our conquest goes. As I noted in my post TS write up, the Space elevator is the only wonder that we will definitely not need.

If we are going to win by Domination, Gandhi and his plethora of wonders should be our first target, We can take all his wonder cities and vassalize him. Then the civ with the next most wonders. We can then only take the remaining wonder cities and the get the AIs to capitulate for the win. Obviously we want to control how many civs we are at war with, so we may need to do some trades or even alliances. Diplo is a pain and I know there are others better than I am at finagling the inter civ relations.

It can be done but we need two things. A strong military, and we will need to build the later wonders that the AI will not get a chance to because they are so far behind us tech wise.

 

[BLubmuz]

Mesix, don't play until our plans for the civics/HE/GP generation are approved.

Merc is also a choice, but we throw in the toilet our free tech...

 

[Mesix]

We can switch to Pacificism in the late game after we are (almost) done war mongering. FR makes the most sense right now. I already outlined the reasons above.

I will post a plan for my TS in a bit and then wait for discussion before playing.

 

[culdeus]

We can switch to Pacificism in the late game after we are (almost) done war mongering. FR makes the most sense right now. I already outlined the reasons above.

I will post a plan for my TS in a bit and then wait for discussion before playing.

Seems like the safest and most flexible plan out there. At least for short term. What's the rifle date at this point?

 

[greatbeyond]

If you don't go Pacifism and Caste, then we'd better get 3 or 4 cities ramped up as big hammer producers to build a few wonders. Getting GEs is what it's all about to rush those wonders. we may not get as far as the 3GD, but there are still several wonders we can rush.

The only time I go away from Pacifism is when the cost of GP gets so high it takes too long to get them. GP are more valuable in the early to mid game than at the end. I think you are overestimating the downside of Pacifism on war making.

OTOH, if we stay in FR for it's happy and research benefit and don't worry about GP production, we'll just have to make the adjustment to larger cities and high hammer yields.

You are right about switching to Mercantilism now. Right now with our freshly captured cities, SP is saving us a bundle. Once we get CH and the FP it shouldn't matter as much.

 

[greatbeyond]

Rifling is 3T away, perhaps a little as 2T with some MM.

I had this in an earlier post:
Tech Path - Finish GP 1T, then what Rifling 2T or should we get Physics for the GS before Gandhi does? He has 2T left in Constitution.

I think getting the free GS is worth the slight detour.

 

[Mesix]

We don't have any temples built. If we are going to switch to Pacificism later...it would be a good idea to build conf temples in all of our cities to get the maximum benefit from taking over the UoS and SM. Every conf (assuming that will be our religion) temple will net +2 gold and +2 research ofter we take those 2 wonders...modified by Libraries, Markets, et al.