I don't think we've even seen a plan yet, so I doubt play will happen any earlier than that. No rush, we're way ahead of everyone.
SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Agreed!
Better define a plan, with the alternate choices and wait a bit.
BTW have you noticed that tha CFC forum were down for many hours today and some 2-3 days ago?
Where are the other members? We seem to be in 4
culdeus
Emperor
To BTS AI being horrible at war when capital is gone:
To me it's not the capital being gone that is the central flaw it's when the capital is under siege and they have no hope of breaking the siege. Seems to me that unlike vanilla AI if you can get straight to the capital then they will dispatch all available offensive troops towards the city (instead of attacking the stack) without regards to terrain bonuses rather than picking a better place to make a last stand.
In vanilla it seemed to me that once attacked the AI would revolt to slavery and whip or else whip every city with defensive units and hunker down only attacking with offensive units when the numbers were there. To a certain extent the BTS AI is better at offense, but worse at defense now. It's AI is so hyper programmed to build diverse stacks of defense/spear/melee/bombard units that it forgets to build a mega stack of defensive units to prevent invasion in the first place.
The central problem is that the AI still after 20 years cannot understand when they are beaten soundly and will not offer concessions in the way of cities and techs and troops when such a realization is upon them. Vassals are an interesting concept and a move towards solving this issue, but are clumsy in the execution.
To me it's not the capital being gone that is the central flaw it's when the capital is under siege and they have no hope of breaking the siege. Seems to me that unlike vanilla AI if you can get straight to the capital then they will dispatch all available offensive troops towards the city (instead of attacking the stack) without regards to terrain bonuses rather than picking a better place to make a last stand.
In vanilla it seemed to me that once attacked the AI would revolt to slavery and whip or else whip every city with defensive units and hunker down only attacking with offensive units when the numbers were there. To a certain extent the BTS AI is better at offense, but worse at defense now. It's AI is so hyper programmed to build diverse stacks of defense/spear/melee/bombard units that it forgets to build a mega stack of defensive units to prevent invasion in the first place.
The central problem is that the AI still after 20 years cannot understand when they are beaten soundly and will not offer concessions in the way of cities and techs and troops when such a realization is upon them. Vassals are an interesting concept and a move towards solving this issue, but are clumsy in the execution.
culdeus
Emperor
Where are the other members? We seem to be in 4
Sorry, been out of town and away from CIV. In the US we are coming up on holidays, but for me this means likely more CIV time others perhaps not.
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 989
I've been here reading even though RL has kept me from doing too much. I gave most of my thoughts in my last two lengthy posts, and am waiting for a plan to check over.
In general I agree with your post, #1113.
As for as AI aggression, I covered it earlier in a post that the AI will often capitulate fairly quickly. This seems to be a change in the latest update as I never noticed it before. You don't have to capture any of their best cities even. In this case we'll want to get all the cities with wonders. The rest we could Raze or gift to an AI that we later plan to Vassalize for the win.
The AI does seem to counter-attack with units instead of camping them in the cities. Of course, this may be an AI preference hard coded in the game whether they prefer Offense or Defense.
As for the MT/Physics gamble I would trade for money or MM like crazy to get the money, to get MT in 1T. I haven't had the save open to see if it's possible.
I wouldn't worry about settling anymore cities unless we absolutely need them for a resource or they'll grow so fast we'll get lots of money out of them. Let G or someone else build, and we'll either raze or keep them as appropriate. It is probably too late to think we're going to strengthen our core with new cities. We'll get stronger as we take the AI's good cities. Crank up that military. We don't want to fall just short because we didn't have enough units.
In general I agree with your post, #1113.
As for as AI aggression, I covered it earlier in a post that the AI will often capitulate fairly quickly. This seems to be a change in the latest update as I never noticed it before. You don't have to capture any of their best cities even. In this case we'll want to get all the cities with wonders. The rest we could Raze or gift to an AI that we later plan to Vassalize for the win.
The AI does seem to counter-attack with units instead of camping them in the cities. Of course, this may be an AI preference hard coded in the game whether they prefer Offense or Defense.
As for the MT/Physics gamble I would trade for money or MM like crazy to get the money, to get MT in 1T. I haven't had the save open to see if it's possible.
I wouldn't worry about settling anymore cities unless we absolutely need them for a resource or they'll grow so fast we'll get lots of money out of them. Let G or someone else build, and we'll either raze or keep them as appropriate. It is probably too late to think we're going to strengthen our core with new cities. We'll get stronger as we take the AI's good cities. Crank up that military. We don't want to fall just short because we didn't have enough units.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
I'm here too, just ultra busy in RL. In fact, ditto everything gb said above.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
I'm still here... Just nothing much to add right now.Where are the other members? We seem to be in 4
Hey y'all, the pre-game thread for GOTM 37 just went up at the GOTM forum. It is a Jesusin-designed map featuring Isabella and Spain at Immortal level. Does that tickle anyone's interest around here???
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
5th: finish the frigate, then what? wealth?
The same with Marbles.
Parma: finish theatre, then observatory
Engineering: finishes rifle, then IW
Stones: finish observatory, then a few more frigates
Farcanal: finish canon, then university, and observatory
Unlundi: finish market, squeeze settler, then bank, then grocer.
Nobamba: finish rifle, then a few canons
Nongoma: finish market, then rax+stables, then cavs. Worker will worshop the fort.
Santarem: finish forge, then library? WT suggests wealth with workshops, but maybe get the workshops up first before building wealth.
Leiria will continue to push out maces.
Evora: finish rax, then a couple of rifles. I know we want maces to be upgraded to rifles, but we need a few rifles to defend and hold the important cities we want to keep.
Oporto: finish forge, then university. Worker will farm the unimproved plains to irrigate the wheat.
Coimbra: finish forge.
Lisbon: rax, then maces
Braga: once out of revolt, finish the forge?
Lagos: finish lib
Guimares: finish canon, then stables, then cavs.
I put the forges back like Blub wanted.
War:
I will send the galleon with the rifle and phant to scout Delhi. If it's not heavily guarded, we'll declare and move the rest in, otherwise move them back to Lagos to be upgraded.
I'm shuffling the fresh troops to the Guimareas to handle Joao. I'm sending 3 rifles to raze Ahmedabad, and 1 mace to garrison new city.
I've tried MM all around, but I cannot get MT in 1 turn. So, if we upgrade, it'll be ~4 turns before we can declare (MT in 2 turns, upgraded, then 2 turns to ferry back to Delhi).
The same with Marbles.
Parma: finish theatre, then observatory
Engineering: finishes rifle, then IW
Stones: finish observatory, then a few more frigates
Farcanal: finish canon, then university, and observatory
Unlundi: finish market, squeeze settler, then bank, then grocer.
Nobamba: finish rifle, then a few canons
Nongoma: finish market, then rax+stables, then cavs. Worker will worshop the fort.
Santarem: finish forge, then library? WT suggests wealth with workshops, but maybe get the workshops up first before building wealth.
Leiria will continue to push out maces.
Evora: finish rax, then a couple of rifles. I know we want maces to be upgraded to rifles, but we need a few rifles to defend and hold the important cities we want to keep.
Oporto: finish forge, then university. Worker will farm the unimproved plains to irrigate the wheat.
Coimbra: finish forge.
Lisbon: rax, then maces
Braga: once out of revolt, finish the forge?
Lagos: finish lib
Guimares: finish canon, then stables, then cavs.
I put the forges back like Blub wanted.
War:
I will send the galleon with the rifle and phant to scout Delhi. If it's not heavily guarded, we'll declare and move the rest in, otherwise move them back to Lagos to be upgraded.
I'm shuffling the fresh troops to the Guimareas to handle Joao. I'm sending 3 rifles to raze Ahmedabad, and 1 mace to garrison new city.
I've tried MM all around, but I cannot get MT in 1 turn. So, if we upgrade, it'll be ~4 turns before we can declare (MT in 2 turns, upgraded, then 2 turns to ferry back to Delhi).
Farcanal: after the first 6 univ. there's no reason to build univ before observ. The observ is cheaper. That's just a general statement. I'm not sure FarCanal needs either of these since it should be mostly workshops/specialists. How about doing the settler here?
Since Nongoma doesn't have a barracks/stable let's leave it as non-military and build a wonder. Maybe a better use of this city is to run merchants. We're running out of time to get those last 2 if the capitol doesn't give us one.
Oporto: same argument for observ.
Coimbra: Change the forge. It has not been started. A library? or wealth is fine. Is this city running artists? I could see a forge here someday, but not first build. NOTE: this city has an Academy!
Braga, same, no forge--ever, no hammers here.
We need to have an eye on the finish line and start some National Wonders.
2 rifles+mace is plenty for Ahmedabad. If we're keeping the city, let's put a cheap garrison unit in there and send the mace on to the front (upgraded of course).
Engineering...I know it's tempting to finish that rifle. I don't think it has much invested, just switch to IW. It's late enough already.
Since Nongoma doesn't have a barracks/stable let's leave it as non-military and build a wonder. Maybe a better use of this city is to run merchants. We're running out of time to get those last 2 if the capitol doesn't give us one.
Oporto: same argument for observ.
Coimbra: Change the forge. It has not been started. A library? or wealth is fine. Is this city running artists? I could see a forge here someday, but not first build. NOTE: this city has an Academy!
Braga, same, no forge--ever, no hammers here.
We need to have an eye on the finish line and start some National Wonders.
2 rifles+mace is plenty for Ahmedabad. If we're keeping the city, let's put a cheap garrison unit in there and send the mace on to the front (upgraded of course).
Engineering...I know it's tempting to finish that rifle. I don't think it has much invested, just switch to IW. It's late enough already.
5th: The frigate has not been started, so don't feel obligated to "finish" it.
You should be able to get us to 80% science and stable cash flow. Wealth in 5th and Marbles almost does it. Run 3 merchants in Nongoma (and build wealth after the market)
You should be able to get us to 80% science and stable cash flow. Wealth in 5th and Marbles almost does it. Run 3 merchants in Nongoma (and build wealth after the market)
What about Constitution?
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Trade with someone for constit. at the lower cost possible, before start the war.
MT - Physics is the research, IIRC.
Are the alternative war-plans (A, B, C) clear?
MT - Physics is the research, IIRC.
Are the alternative war-plans (A, B, C) clear?
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
Ok, noted. Anymore suggestions? I can't play tomorrow since it's a holiday and I've got company over for the entire day, so Friday will be the day. Still leaves plenty of time for anymore suggestions/comments.
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
Any more comments/suggestions? If not, I'll play tonite.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Hmm... I actually had some time today, but just assumed that by the time I looked at the save and typed something up,you'd have posted your TS, wasting my time. 
Anyway, I don't see anything glaringly wrong with what's been said. Good luck.
Anyway, I don't see anything glaringly wrong with what's been said. Good luck.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
Good luck and happy hunting!
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
Ok. Started off by taking a tour of our cities and making all the necessary changes as suggested/commented.
Then did this trade with Augustus
I wasn't sure if we were suppose to switch to Rep or not, so I left it as is.
Sent the galleon with the rifle and BE on it to scout, and revealed Delhi
We can totally take this. So I declared and moved in, but hit a snag!!! I totally forgot that with those 2 galleons in the way, we have to go around them to get to Delhi. This meant that this turn I only managed to moved the galleons next to Delhi, but cannot unload.
Well the die has be cast, let's see what hand fate deals us. So I hit enter .... and Gandhi does nothing
Landed our troops and cross my fingers again, and Gandhi still does nothing other than sank one of our galleons with a frigate. Which reminds me, we really need some escort for them.
Charlie stopped by with a demand and was shot down
MT came in Physics next
I bombarded with the pult bringing defense from 80% to 64% and still our best odds are > 65% against the longbows on a hill. So I sent our 2 weakest rifles at the longbows expecting to loose but hoping to win. Odds were not in our favor.
However, those are the only 2 we lost, and we took Delhi with no further loss. Also razed the iron mine and killed 2 indian pults and a mace doing it, and our rifle supermedic is ready for his next promotion
Back home we razed Ahmedabad
and settled Yasodharapura
Augustus came with a trade, I thought about it for a bit but decided to turn him down. Gandhi already built the Versailles, it's useless to us.
Physics came along with a GS, set research to Military Science .... I kinda forgot what we were suppose to research after Physics.
Bombay joins the Khmer empire without costing us anything
Here's a look at Joao's remaining cities. The 3 cavalries and 3 maces I have there should be plenty to take him out, I've already taken out 2 longbows and an axe at Faro.
I've got a stack forming at Lagos. They can move out now and reinforce our stack on the other continent or go island hoping, or wait for the rest of the canons to arrive before sending them off.
>>THE SAVE<<
Session turn log:
Then did this trade with Augustus
Spoiler :
I wasn't sure if we were suppose to switch to Rep or not, so I left it as is.
Sent the galleon with the rifle and BE on it to scout, and revealed Delhi
Spoiler :
We can totally take this. So I declared and moved in, but hit a snag!!! I totally forgot that with those 2 galleons in the way, we have to go around them to get to Delhi. This meant that this turn I only managed to moved the galleons next to Delhi, but cannot unload.
Well the die has be cast, let's see what hand fate deals us. So I hit enter .... and Gandhi does nothing
Landed our troops and cross my fingers again, and Gandhi still does nothing other than sank one of our galleons with a frigate. Which reminds me, we really need some escort for them.
Charlie stopped by with a demand and was shot down
Spoiler :
MT came in Physics next
Spoiler :
I bombarded with the pult bringing defense from 80% to 64% and still our best odds are > 65% against the longbows on a hill. So I sent our 2 weakest rifles at the longbows expecting to loose but hoping to win. Odds were not in our favor.
However, those are the only 2 we lost, and we took Delhi with no further loss. Also razed the iron mine and killed 2 indian pults and a mace doing it, and our rifle supermedic is ready for his next promotion
Spoiler :
Back home we razed Ahmedabad
Spoiler :
and settled Yasodharapura
Spoiler :
Augustus came with a trade, I thought about it for a bit but decided to turn him down. Gandhi already built the Versailles, it's useless to us.
Spoiler :
Physics came along with a GS, set research to Military Science .... I kinda forgot what we were suppose to research after Physics.
Spoiler :
Bombay joins the Khmer empire without costing us anything
Spoiler :
Here's a look at Joao's remaining cities. The 3 cavalries and 3 maces I have there should be plenty to take him out, I've already taken out 2 longbows and an axe at Faro.
Spoiler :
I've got a stack forming at Lagos. They can move out now and reinforce our stack on the other continent or go island hoping, or wait for the rest of the canons to arrive before sending them off.
>>THE SAVE<<
Session turn log:
Spoiler :
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
Here's the autolog (I think):
Spoiler :
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Another quick wonder from his deathbed!! Nice one, berserks.
I've got the save, should be able to post a plan within 24.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
Nice report with pictures.
Versailles will help out our maint costs on the new continent.
Good job taking Delhi and Bombay...the rest of Ghandi's empire shouldn't last long.
Versailles will help out our maint costs on the new continent.
Good job taking Delhi and Bombay...the rest of Ghandi's empire shouldn't last long.
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