SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

BLubmuz · Dec 1, 2008

WastinTime said:
Airships. I rarely use these. Are they useful?
Cheap, and they help to soften without risk
I still like NE in engineering, after IW, but in your TS we will see if 5th makes a GM. The decision on NE can wait until the GM pops (or not.)
Agree
Be sure to MM every city after the Dye trade to get the previously angry citizens doing something good.
Again
Going to Vijay first is fine, but Madras is blocking 2 clam. so in 6 turns Delhi will want that city to fall. Should be doable.
What do ya mean? Madras first, or after Vinia?
You briefly mentioned keeping Lahore, but you did say you'd raze it too. I see it being surrounded by Rome's influence and not keepable.

Soon or later we'll go for Rome (the city). Keeping those 2 cities will help our movement, even if they will surely suffer the cultural pressure. There's also the risk AC will settle a city there, and we'll be slowered by that too.

With rifles around, and you know the AI loves them, cavalry will soon obsolete, if not for support and fights in the field.
Also, grens have an attack bonus against rifles, so i think infantry is necessary.
But we can aim for artillery, too.
Wonder-wise the path to MM is the best, but we need also to win, and i think it will be by Domination.

WastinTime · Dec 1, 2008

I was saying troops can be dropped off at Vijay, but the next stop should be one boat-full to raze madras in 6 turns.

BLubmuz · Dec 1, 2008

WastinTime said:
I was saying troops can be dropped off at Vijay, but the next stop should be one boat-full to raze madras in 6 turns.

Right.
Having seen G's military strength, what about unload a galleon right now?
And unload the remaining troops in the mainland, of course.

This can let time for raze the island city right west of Portugal with next convoy.

Sweetacshon · Dec 1, 2008

Taking out Madras within 6 should be doable, and maybe diverting a few troops on the way over is the go. I don't recall... what defence was in there last time someone checked? (our map still shows it as size 2).

OK, I agree with waiting for the next GP to decide on NE, although this is what we did last time, and it still isn't built! Also the kremlin is available to build. Do we have a shot, or let an AI take it.

So the 2 major points that need to be decided before I can play:

After democracy, is it steam, arty, or electricity?
Raze or keep Lahore and Agra?

My feeling is that arty can wait or even skip/trade. Cannon, frigate, airship can fill the void. Steam is versatile, I mean levee and ironclad and whatnot are ok, but to get to infantry or RR (actually, are we going down this path? Will we need modern navy?). Electricity of course is down the main research channel. I'm not sure. It depends on what units we think we'll be up against next, and what we can trade for in about 10 turns. What are your experiences with being able to trade for corp, elec, or steam?

I suppose I'm inclined to keep the 2 cities, only because we intend to win within 50 turns or so. There doesn't seem much point in giving up land now. I wouldn't :cry:

if we decide to raze, tho. Another option is to raze Agra and keep Lahore.

Mesix · Dec 1, 2008

The only thing I want to add to the conversation is to prioritize the SoL. Once we finish researching Democracy, we need to have a high production city build the SoL on the old continent. Getting one free specialist per city will be a huge boost, especially if we plan to run Pacificism.

WastinTime · Dec 2, 2008

SoL is scheduled to go in 5th ASAP I believe.

I'm worried that Agra/lahore will have no tiles to work, cost us a bunch of maint., and then flip to rome. So I'm for raze.

I'd like to get the wonders started, so I'm for Elect. In an ideal game, we would never get arty. We may have trouble getting to domination, so we'll research arty/rocketry for the corporation. The perfect game would probably have skipped that wonder.

BLubmuz · Dec 2, 2008

First off, remember we'll soon have the Sistine, a great help for expand borders.

This said, i'm conviced to keep Lahore, Agra can be a pain, but it will help Lahore to keep some tile.
But sincerely, not sure about keep or raze it.
Calcutta can suffer too, but if we think our next victim will be Charlie, it's worth keep it.

After demo i'll go for Steam, then the path to MM.
But i can easily be convinced to go straight to MM.
On the path there's Radio, with a great wonder: CR.
No anarchy changing civics or religion and you can even switch every turn.

Sweetacshon · Dec 2, 2008

Argh... small dose of food poisoning last night, and still suffering a bit. If I feel better, I'll play tonight, if not, tomorrow.

Sweetacshon · Dec 4, 2008

The turnset was... double egded. All was going well and to plan: One group went to raze Madurai, which went fine, and the other jumped off for Vijay, which also went fine. The other 3 galleons I left on our continent, and they had to hide until the new frigates were ready. The next batch of reinforcements went straight to Calcutta, which was kept, while the Vijay squad moved on to Vahus...whatever. The problem came when I took the squad out to raze Madras and free up some room for Delhi. I accidentally took 1 too many rifles out, leaving only 1 cav and 2 airships. The Madras route is 6 tiles, so the galleons couldn't make it back, and G slipped through and took Dehli. Crap. CRAP! I took it back next turn, but that means more city revolt. Terrible play, and I'm feeling :cry:

, but we have to press on.

Joao is down to one city in the south, and has broken away from G. They will both capitulate, we might even get corp in the deal. The army near Joao is injured, but hasn't been moved yet. WW from J is huge, so we should either finish him quickly, or accept his capitulation and let him keep the tundra this turn. For G, we can kick him off the mainland and then vassalise him and take corp - he has 2 or 3 island cities. Once we take (or raze) Agra, we can flow south and west. 3 galleons are being used as an offensive coastal ferry, and 3 as an intercontinental or northern ferry. There are 2 sets of frigates, and one guarding the coastal ferry. Also, there is a small force ready to take G's SE city.. whatever it's called. We also only have 1 frigate near Marbles, so another one should be made.

What else is there? Democracy came in, and steam has 2 to go. A triple civics change took 2 turns, which is the delay in teching. A GM was born, and there is a GP due in Marbles in 5ish. Hopefully a GS or GM, as we need one of each. The IW is due next turn, and then the HE can go in there and we can go for GEs. I suppose the workshops there should be farmed over. The GT and the kremlin are chugging away, and I was thinking of Lisbon for the FP, but as long as it's in that area, noone cares. Hermitage still needs to be started somewhere. The SoL is building in 5th.

OK. That's it. Have fun, WastinTime.
Battle Stats:
Units victorious while attacking : 39
Units victorious while defending : 5
Units defeated while attacking : 3
Units defeated while defending : 3

Spoiler autolog :

Time to start removing some log info, imo. :crazyeye:

the save
Turn 222, 1560 AD: Your population: 264, plus growth: 1 (32.88%) will put close to the Domination Limit: 338 (42.00%).

WastinTime · Dec 4, 2008

You mentioned HE after IW. Did you mean NE?

I hope you were joking about covering the workshops with farms. The IW city needs hammers to build many wonders. It can run 4 engineers with current food even without SoL. Maybe we'll make a farm once Biology is in and factory is built.

You mentioned triple civics, but not religion change...didn't check the save yet.

WastinTime · Dec 4, 2008

To avoid "yearn for our homeland" we shouldn't take J as a vassal. If he had a larger area, 3 cities, maybe. But it's only 1 left. I suppose peace would be a bad idea because he'd become a vassal of someone else. That's what I'd normally do, but I don't play w/ vassals on. So it looks like we wipe him.

WastinTime · Dec 4, 2008

Gems! Charlie will give us gems. Gotta keep an eye on that. Maybe we should attack Boudica next to keep the Dye/gems. We could go west thru her, then back east thru Charlie and finish in Rome. I'm not sure that's enough land. We may need to settle some islands if there are any left. We should prepare to clean up the barbs now for the land.

greatbeyond · Dec 4, 2008

like WT, I'll look at the save to see what pearls of wisdom I can offer.

BLubmuz · Dec 4, 2008

Sweeta, when you noticed you left only 1 cav in Dehli, you could call back a galleon and unload a rifle. He can't move, but he can defend IBT.
10 more turns of revolt (on normal) will cost us a lot, we must also count the gold we lose from the Shrines!!!

I agree that J must be wiped.

Not sure now about G.
Let him Agra and Lahore will help our Roman offensive, pity for "we yearn to join...", but also corp for free is not bad.

Last but not least, we can start soon our war with Celts.
I think can be a good idea go for them first, than back to HRE and finally Rome and Greece.
My doubt is that being aggressive it will be hard to see her capitulate.

What do you mean by "triple revolt"?
representation, emancipation and pacifism?
Not sure revolt to pacifism is worth, remember we must also to revolt to Confu.
Is possible to wait until the CR is done?

berserks01 · Dec 4, 2008

I believe if we go to pacifism we'll automatically revert back to the previous religion, so that's one revolt less than calculated.

Sweetacshon · Dec 4, 2008

IF? There is no if, it's done. I actually thought it was done and dusted. being discussed with no objections. IF I recall, we had an issue with not choosing a religion previously.I did not switch religions.

BLubmuz: The galleon was 3 moves away from Dehli, and so could only make it back to helplessly watch from next to the city, only having 2/5 left. :cry:

Yep, it's still a painful memory. It's funny how much effort you invest in a sgotm

Not sure now about G.
Let him Agra and Lahore will help our Roman offensive, pity for "we yearn to join...", but also corp for free is not bad.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I meant that we should try for capitulation after we kick him off the mainland, so he only has islands left. Do you mean it would be nice if we could leave G there as aculrture buffer?

WT: Yeah- NE not HE, of course. The gems? Hmm... I pretty much checked every turn, not sure when they popped up. Unless it was a trade with G that formerly existed. :devil:

As for farms, I hadn't counted food (still haven't), but I only meant enough for the engineers, not the whole place. If there is enough food, I agree, no farms.

OK. I agree. Kill Joao, vassalise islander G, move onto the celts. Electricity after steam, waiting to get corp from G (or trade) and then we can slide in AL. Perhaps build a couple of settlers in our junkier cities to fill the gaps in the south and on stone island ...and that island to the north as well, I guess.

WastinTime · Dec 4, 2008

I see Agra only gets culture pressure from the outermost tiles (i.e. light pressure) It's probably keepable. I didn't think Lahore would have any tiles to work, but maybe it's not so bad either.

I agree with everyone's assessment of where we're headed. We all seem to be on the same page.

Our beakers are down to ~800/turn. After we end the J war, it should go back up to ~1100. It's a shame we had to turn on Emanc. I imagine the happiness was a problem. With more Emanc. coming soon, it's probably best to just be there now. We'll need CR to do any more switching. Sadly G's cities will starve down a bit instead of us getting some good slavery in.

WastinTime · Dec 5, 2008

Did anyone notice when Gandhi would have capitulated?

Does anyone know how quickly the others would agree to that?

Our land is very low. We need to triple our land in the next 50 turns. So I'm wondering if it's faster to just take the wonder city of each remaining AI and then vassalize. I don't imagine they'd agree that soon though.

Boudica has a HUGE stack in the first city. I'm seeing big delays in our finish. It think tech pace is no longer a concern. We've been warring non-stop since turn 100, and we're not getting it done. Anyone have any good trick for fast domination. I'm thinking maybe we settler spam.

BLubmuz · Dec 5, 2008

I put on the table the idea of vassallize G for the cultural buffer Agra and Lahore can give us.
But if you think they're not so pressed by Roman culture, there's no point in vassallize him with only that island city.
Wipe him is better in this case.

Wars on normal take forever, is a pain.

There's no way to see when an AI is willing to vassallize if not when you play.

Probably G was trading clams for gems with Charlie, we can verify this opening an older save.
Razing Madras we broken that trade.

WastinTime · Dec 5, 2008

BLubmuz said:
Wipe him is better in this case.

There's no way to see when an AI is willing to vassallize if not when you play.

I don't think we can afford the time to wipe Gandhi. I'm for vassalizing after the mainland is clear. Others? (BTW, we get some happiness for this deal...and some maint. cost...hopefully not too much....oh and we get to demand his whale (more happy)

RE: willing to be vassal...
Can't you just check and see if they would offer capitulation for peace? That tells you they're ready.

SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

HoF Quattromaster

In the foetal position

Obergruppenführer

Deity

HoF Quattromaster

In the foetal position

In the foetal position

Deity

Deity

Deity

King

HoF Quattromaster

Obviously Very Confused

In the foetal position

Deity

Deity

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

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