BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
GB, as i already said, your plan seems good.
Refuse all tech demands, we do not gift anything to anyone.
Go ahead
Refuse all tech demands, we do not gift anything to anyone.
Go ahead
SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
I think that we should retain good relations with Joao. We should save him for last. It would be beneficial to have him on our continent to spread religions and corporations to for additional income. Once we finish off Shaka we should start preparing for an overseas war to take wonder rich cities. Turns will start cycling fast and turn 250 will come before you know it. It will be easier to take any important wonder cities from Joao at the last minute than it will be to take overseas cities at the last minute. To this end I would welcome up to one tech demand, but I agree that we should trade first. I should have traded some tech with Joao on my turnset, but I guess defending our territory distracted me a but.
As we are exploring to find the other AI players, we should have a near term goal to bee line rifeling. Our promoted maces from the war with Shaka can be upgraded to (homefully CR3) rifelmen before they are loaded on boats to sail to the other continent.
I agree that we need infrastructure in the cities, but we need units more immediately. I don't think that it is a good idea to delay units to squeeze in a harbor or a lighthouse. After HG we may even want to squeeze in one unpromoted unit out of Engineering before the Forge. Once we take Shaka's capitol we can examine what infrastructure is necessary in the cities while our forces clean up the straglers and other small cities left in Shaka's control.
We should get a couple workers from Shaka, so there really isn't a need to build any more. I think Marbles should build some basic infrasructure and then work on wonders.
As we are exploring to find the other AI players, we should have a near term goal to bee line rifeling. Our promoted maces from the war with Shaka can be upgraded to (homefully CR3) rifelmen before they are loaded on boats to sail to the other continent.
I agree that we need infrastructure in the cities, but we need units more immediately. I don't think that it is a good idea to delay units to squeeze in a harbor or a lighthouse. After HG we may even want to squeeze in one unpromoted unit out of Engineering before the Forge. Once we take Shaka's capitol we can examine what infrastructure is necessary in the cities while our forces clean up the straglers and other small cities left in Shaka's control.
We should get a couple workers from Shaka, so there really isn't a need to build any more. I think Marbles should build some basic infrasructure and then work on wonders.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
On the resarch front, I think that important short term goals should be to get Education and Banking. Building universities will help further our tech lead. Getting markets, grocers, and banks (especially in Parma after the shrine) will help our economy to run at a higher tech rate. To this end, I recommend this tech path:
Paper > Education > Guilds > Banking
We should trade for Currency at the earliest opportunity rather than self researching. We should also trade for the Asthetics, Literature, Drama, and Music rather than self researching those techs. Let the AI build those early wonders so we can capture them. We will push our research towards more advanced techs to build later wonders that the AI is not likely to get to in time.
Without surprises, a long term research plan would then hit:
Printing Press > Replaceable Parts > Gunpowder > Rifeling
We should put off Liberalism as long as possible to get the most benefit from it. We should also put off Astronomy since the Colossus will be providing a lot of commerce to our cities. We should get Astronomy when we are ready to start building ships for our invasion fleet.
This plan does not include a provision to get Theocracy. It is importatnt to get Theocracy to build HS. After one of the AI players builds the AP Theocracy might be available to trade. If we think that it will not be then we may want to squeeze Theocracy in earlier (after trading for Monotheism).
Paper > Education > Guilds > Banking
We should trade for Currency at the earliest opportunity rather than self researching. We should also trade for the Asthetics, Literature, Drama, and Music rather than self researching those techs. Let the AI build those early wonders so we can capture them. We will push our research towards more advanced techs to build later wonders that the AI is not likely to get to in time.
Without surprises, a long term research plan would then hit:
Printing Press > Replaceable Parts > Gunpowder > Rifeling
We should put off Liberalism as long as possible to get the most benefit from it. We should also put off Astronomy since the Colossus will be providing a lot of commerce to our cities. We should get Astronomy when we are ready to start building ships for our invasion fleet.
This plan does not include a provision to get Theocracy. It is importatnt to get Theocracy to build HS. After one of the AI players builds the AP Theocracy might be available to trade. If we think that it will not be then we may want to squeeze Theocracy in earlier (after trading for Monotheism).
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 989
TS completed. We still haven't been able to take Shaka's city as on the very next turn he showed up with a stack of Impis, Chariots, Axes, and Cats. I have been able to kill each stack he has ventured forth but have not been able to go on the offenseive because we didn't have enough units and they were healing. The good news is that most are CR2 now, and we are almost ready.
I did not realize an Impi could pass thorugh a jungle square and keep going so I lost the Worker that had just finished chopping south of the freshwater.
The HG was completed and our Caravel is headed East. I think it should make a brief detour to Marbles and pick up our GG and drop him off on the mainland.
Other than that our production is going as planned.
Autolog:
[
The Turn Log:
!
The Save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/Fifth_Element_SG008_AD0200_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
I did some city MM so you should check out the cities. Mostly I changed our specialists.
I did not realize an Impi could pass thorugh a jungle square and keep going so I lost the Worker that had just finished chopping south of the freshwater.
The HG was completed and our Caravel is headed East. I think it should make a brief detour to Marbles and pick up our GG and drop him off on the mainland.
Other than that our production is going as planned.
Autolog:
[
Spoiler :
The Turn Log:
Spoiler :
The Save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/Fifth_Element_SG008_AD0200_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
I did some city MM so you should check out the cities. Mostly I changed our specialists.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
One more thought...we may want to put missionaries on our caravals. If we spread Confusionism to the other continent it will benefit our shrine income. This will be especially true if we spread it to a zealous AI (like Ghandi, Hatty or Izzy if we meet them) since they are likely to spread the religion to all their cities.
culdeus
Emperor
Shaka should be done with his whipping and ability to put out units in any meaningful way. Should make quick work of him now. GG born in marbles. :wall: Oh well. Gotta have a galley to get workers/settlers over soon anyways. So pop a quick galley out of stone or marbles?
GB, your TS seems well played, so don't take this personally...
This game is a complete disaster. Our research rate is pathetic. We're not working any water tiles to use the Colossus. We're generating a bunch of random GP points.
Losing the Pyramids was bad, but this war is the worst thing that could happen. We're going to burn 25 turns of war before we capture 1 city. Scale that to marathon speed: 75 turns with nothing to show for it!
We've lost foreign trade routes during the war, and I don't see them opening up any time soon. Maybe we have to pop a GS and lightbulb Astro or Education to try and salvage this.
Cottages in the captiol!!!!!!!
This game is a complete disaster. Our research rate is pathetic. We're not working any water tiles to use the Colossus. We're generating a bunch of random GP points.
Losing the Pyramids was bad, but this war is the worst thing that could happen. We're going to burn 25 turns of war before we capture 1 city. Scale that to marathon speed: 75 turns with nothing to show for it!
We've lost foreign trade routes during the war, and I don't see them opening up any time soon. Maybe we have to pop a GS and lightbulb Astro or Education to try and salvage this.
Cottages in the captiol!!!!!!!
culdeus
Emperor
Shaka was put there for a reason. Everyone was going to be faced with the same issue if they pursued a CS slingshot rather than an axe rush. Three teams did an axe rush. The rest either did a late axe or a mace rush like us. The city tile working problem is also an issue of goals. We are out of happy as a result of the map design and must make some bad decisions about tiles worked in order to get any military units out.
I do think the slavery/caste thing is coming back to bite us. This game is playing out like an immortal game as far as
and not monarch. That begs more whipping than what we are doing to get thru the wars asap.
How would we keep the trade routes with Shaka invading us? It's not like we wanted this war when we did. We practically invited it with our early game.
I do think the slavery/caste thing is coming back to bite us. This game is playing out like an immortal game as far as
and not monarch. That begs more whipping than what we are doing to get thru the wars asap. How would we keep the trade routes with Shaka invading us? It's not like we wanted this war when we did. We practically invited it with our early game.
No doubt we invited this. I had no trouble keeping him away with a small stack on his border in my tests. I've had tests that run to t130 or t140 without any war. I got Astronomy ~t135 and then war, keeping the science rate at 80%.
GB, I'm confused about 1 thing. Our caravel should have been out t120 and halfway across the ocean by now. What's up with that? Let's not detour for the GG. Agree w/culd...galley out of marbles
culdeus
Emperor
One problem if we are to go back is perhaps we played a little to fast once we knew we had shaka over there. The "small stack" plan could have been executed with some degree of success with Parma pitching in for a few early axes.
This invasion was still 15 turns earlier than I ever saw in my tests either. Some of this especially the mids was just plain bad luck. Those 3
: would be just massive in the capital right now.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
It seems well played to me, not working sea tiles is due to our need of hammers to sustain the war, and to avoid growth.
GB did well not attacking the city, Shaka should have finished his resources.
The only thing he forgot was that Impis not only have 2 moves, but they can ignore terrain costs. I thought every Civ player know this, it's Shaka's main strenght.
For the rest i'll see when i'll open the save.
I'll post a plan, even if there's nothing much to discuss: pump units, i'll put some spear somewhere, go to Ulundi.
I just submitted a Monarch game for my Elite Quattromaster, the first i ever played in BtS: the AI is surprisingly aggressive, compared to Warlords and Vanilla: i has a nice start ruined by Cyrus with a stack of 6 Immortals when i has right hooked the copperin my 2nd city, and my army consisted in 2 warriors.
Another attempt Suryavarman Dowed Hatty, and he was north of me, Hatty south. He asked me to join, and i accepted (i already planned a chariot rush, no copper near my 2 cities). He lost 4 units to Thebes, let it open to my chariots. Few turns later, he dowed me. Maybe i could have won, but the game was ruined, abandoned.
Last note: in my tests, i DoWes Shaka, not him.
GB did well not attacking the city, Shaka should have finished his resources.
The only thing he forgot was that Impis not only have 2 moves, but they can ignore terrain costs. I thought every Civ player know this, it's Shaka's main strenght.
For the rest i'll see when i'll open the save.
I'll post a plan, even if there's nothing much to discuss: pump units, i'll put some spear somewhere, go to Ulundi.
I just submitted a Monarch game for my Elite Quattromaster, the first i ever played in BtS: the AI is surprisingly aggressive, compared to Warlords and Vanilla: i has a nice start ruined by Cyrus with a stack of 6 Immortals when i has right hooked the copperin my 2nd city, and my army consisted in 2 warriors.
Another attempt Suryavarman Dowed Hatty, and he was north of me, Hatty south. He asked me to join, and i accepted (i already planned a chariot rush, no copper near my 2 cities). He lost 4 units to Thebes, let it open to my chariots. Few turns later, he dowed me. Maybe i could have won, but the game was ruined, abandoned.
Last note: in my tests, i DoWes Shaka, not him.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
Nicely played TS. We didn't take a city yet, but we have beaten down a lot of Shaka's units (and his ability to whip more). The next TS should take the first city and the TS after that should take his capitol.
I don't think this game is a disaster. If we stay focused on the goal and don't get side tracked we should do alright. We still have all of our macemen and more on the way.
As I said above, Shaka needs to go, but we gain nothing by taking our Joao. Let him stay around until near the end. If he builds any wonders we can take them last.
If we switch to Monarchy we can gain happiness from our troops. This will help our cities to grow and allow us to work more coastal tiles.
I don't think this game is a disaster. If we stay focused on the goal and don't get side tracked we should do alright. We still have all of our macemen and more on the way.
As I said above, Shaka needs to go, but we gain nothing by taking our Joao. Let him stay around until near the end. If he builds any wonders we can take them last.
If we switch to Monarchy we can gain happiness from our troops. This will help our cities to grow and allow us to work more coastal tiles.
culdeus
Emperor
I tend to agree to keep J around. He needs to be our best bud and will allow us to have our maces u-turn and become happy providers until we can get overseas.
I don't see much reward in taking him out straight away.
I don't see much reward in taking him out straight away.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
You and Mesix can be right.
Anyway, let's think how to wipe Shaka, then we'll discuss this.
Also, we'll have a better knowledge of the map.
Mesix, in 8 turns i'll take Ulundi, you can bet your last cent on it.
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 989
Has everyone missed the fact that I let Shaka capture a Worker? 
It is kind of everyone to not immediately call for my execution.
Other than that, everything went exactly as planned. All specialists were changed to GS for better research. When production allowed the change from Hammers to Gold it was done. Research had to be dropped back to 60%. It did not lengthen our research time for Optics, just the carryover. The only thing I considered different was to promote our Trireme to a Caravel at a cost of 50 gold. The reason I didn't was it would mean another cut to our research rate and we would have very little cash left over. We were running at -9 gold per turn.
Research for Optics was exactly 5T and the Caravel was started and finished in 2 Turns, exactly as outlined. Lots should happen on the next TS. We should be able to take the Rice city and perhaps the capitol. Let's hope Shaka doesn't get LBs.
A GP should pop very soon, followed by a GS in our capitol if we push it.
Happiness cap has pretty much been reached but once we convert to HR, it should be better. We can probably afford to convert now as our army is a pretty good size.
Watch those Impis, they are no match for Axes or Maces but Shaka seems intent on taking the war to us, instead of just playing defense. He was going to sneak one into Engineering by sea, but I moved our Trireme to deter him. Barb galleys have made their appearance and it looks like will start to see a lot of them soon. One more Trireme or Caravel willl be necessary for patrol duty.
The GG can be picked up and dropped off at the end of 1 turn beginning of the next without really causing much of a delay. I'm not sure how you think the Caravel could have been out two turns earlier, I suppose we could have run at a 100% research but IIRC it would have only shave 1 turn and we would have no cash left.
Cash flow is becoming a problem, we should work more sea tiles, unfortunately it has been necessary to emphasize Hammers for production over commerce. HR should really help with this as Parma and Stoneopolis are the only cities that are not at their happy cap yet.
I agree about keeping Joao around, and save him for last.
It is kind of everyone to not immediately call for my execution.Other than that, everything went exactly as planned. All specialists were changed to GS for better research. When production allowed the change from Hammers to Gold it was done. Research had to be dropped back to 60%. It did not lengthen our research time for Optics, just the carryover. The only thing I considered different was to promote our Trireme to a Caravel at a cost of 50 gold. The reason I didn't was it would mean another cut to our research rate and we would have very little cash left over. We were running at -9 gold per turn.
Research for Optics was exactly 5T and the Caravel was started and finished in 2 Turns, exactly as outlined. Lots should happen on the next TS. We should be able to take the Rice city and perhaps the capitol. Let's hope Shaka doesn't get LBs.
A GP should pop very soon, followed by a GS in our capitol if we push it.
Happiness cap has pretty much been reached but once we convert to HR, it should be better. We can probably afford to convert now as our army is a pretty good size.
Watch those Impis, they are no match for Axes or Maces but Shaka seems intent on taking the war to us, instead of just playing defense. He was going to sneak one into Engineering by sea, but I moved our Trireme to deter him. Barb galleys have made their appearance and it looks like will start to see a lot of them soon. One more Trireme or Caravel willl be necessary for patrol duty.
The GG can be picked up and dropped off at the end of 1 turn beginning of the next without really causing much of a delay. I'm not sure how you think the Caravel could have been out two turns earlier, I suppose we could have run at a 100% research but IIRC it would have only shave 1 turn and we would have no cash left.
Cash flow is becoming a problem, we should work more sea tiles, unfortunately it has been necessary to emphasize Hammers for production over commerce. HR should really help with this as Parma and Stoneopolis are the only cities that are not at their happy cap yet.
I agree about keeping Joao around, and save him for last.
Sorry to beat on this, but the caravel was done t121. It should have sailed 9 tiles, but has only moved 3. Am I confused?
I was going to wait to discuss Joao, but since so many people are already choosing to keep him around, I better jump in now. I'm for stomping on J as soon as we get Astronomy. These lower difficulty games use huge empires to tech quickly. J's land is part of our empire. From what I understand, we can't support a large colony off-continent w/BTS, so early wars over there don't seem wise. I'd rather not have 2 armies. Let's mop up our continent and then move the forces off.
I was going to wait to discuss Joao, but since so many people are already choosing to keep him around, I better jump in now. I'm for stomping on J as soon as we get Astronomy. These lower difficulty games use huge empires to tech quickly. J's land is part of our empire. From what I understand, we can't support a large colony off-continent w/BTS, so early wars over there don't seem wise. I'd rather not have 2 armies. Let's mop up our continent and then move the forces off.
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 989
I think what you are seeing is the log recording it was actually done at the end of the previous turn due to overflow. But wasn't actually available to move until the next turn. IIRC it has not been moved yet for this turn.
I did contemplate moving it to explore further east, but thought I 'd better leave something for someone else to do.
As for Joao, you do make a good point. My impression is that BTS really escalated the costs of overseas acquisitions.
I did contemplate moving it to explore further east, but thought I 'd better leave something for someone else to do.
As for Joao, you do make a good point. My impression is that BTS really escalated the costs of overseas acquisitions.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
As i already said, it seems well played.
The only point i wish to discuss is the GG: i think to settle him as a Military Instructor on capital, OK?
I'll play tomorrow morning, after watch this thread.
The only point i wish to discuss is the GG: i think to settle him as a Military Instructor on capital, OK?
I'll play tomorrow morning, after watch this thread.
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 989
That's what I was thinking for the GG too.
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