SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
See the last posts, the strategy for next TS can be this:
Use Engineering as initially planned, and forget it for military units (i can bet we'll be beaten to HG, but let's try)
There's room for the Colossus in 5burg, with chopping it will ask 4 turns: what about this?
I'm totally against unpromoted units: what hope they can have against c1+another promo Shaka's units will have?
But 1 unpromoted spear can be squeezed from Parma, just to help.
Following this we can build:
5burg: Colossus (with chopping), barracks, maces with 1 trireme before the war starts
Parma: unpromoted spear, forge, barracks, maces
Engineering: finish granary, forge, baray, HG
Marbles: finish library, Moai, forge, keep scientists at work
Stone: switch to WB, finish library, forge
Research, ok, i'm in minority
let's go straight to Optics. I suppose we have no time for wonders if we need troops.
Charge!
edit: xposted with Dutch. Yes, wait to promote a unit until it's goin' to fight
Use Engineering as initially planned, and forget it for military units (i can bet we'll be beaten to HG, but let's try)
There's room for the Colossus in 5burg, with chopping it will ask 4 turns: what about this?
I'm totally against unpromoted units: what hope they can have against c1+another promo Shaka's units will have?
But 1 unpromoted spear can be squeezed from Parma, just to help.
Following this we can build:
5burg: Colossus (with chopping), barracks, maces with 1 trireme before the war starts
Parma: unpromoted spear, forge, barracks, maces
Engineering: finish granary, forge, baray, HG
Marbles: finish library, Moai, forge, keep scientists at work
Stone: switch to WB, finish library, forge
Research, ok, i'm in minority
let's go straight to Optics. I suppose we have no time for wonders if we need troops.Charge!
edit: xposted with Dutch. Yes, wait to promote a unit until it's goin' to fight
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
Blub, I understand that the forge gives a production bonus, but it also takes 12 turns to build in Parma. 12 turns = 3-4 maces. Can we compromise and squeeze in the barracks before the maces but not the forge? It just seems like it will delay our unit build up.
A silver lining to Optics is that once we meet the other AI we can trade for early techs that we missed. As was pointed out several times already, on monarch the AI techs slower than at higher levels. We can't hope for the AI to get the advanced techs needed towards the end of the game, but we can beeline some important techs and then trade for ones that we missed.
A silver lining to Optics is that once we meet the other AI we can trade for early techs that we missed. As was pointed out several times already, on monarch the AI techs slower than at higher levels. We can't hope for the AI to get the advanced techs needed towards the end of the game, but we can beeline some important techs and then trade for ones that we missed.
culdeus
Emperor
If we get a DOW from Shaka do we divert to Construction and then continue or just wait for optics? Worth considering. It might be worth doing construction after compass because we'll be doing nothing but chopping maces while compass is being researched anyways and will have no time for cats.
You know stone won't be just a horrid unit producer really. I mean it's got a few things going for it in that way.
You know stone won't be just a horrid unit producer really. I mean it's got a few things going for it in that way.
I like the plan in general.
In my tests, a small stack of units on Shaka's border seems to keep him away.
I also want the unpromoted spear in Parma that Blub suggested. Let's also squeeze in 1 unpromoted Axe in Engineering, then finish granary, then you can try for the HG if you want. I agree with Blub, that we will miss it, but at least we'd get a bunch of cash for a partial build.
These unpromoted units will be fine for defense/police duty after the cities start dropping. I don't see them as a waste.
Construction after optics (if at all, let's hold off as long as possible, until we really want cats). We're gonna need to get some resource trades with the other AI for happiness soon.
In my tests, a small stack of units on Shaka's border seems to keep him away.
I also want the unpromoted spear in Parma that Blub suggested. Let's also squeeze in 1 unpromoted Axe in Engineering, then finish granary, then you can try for the HG if you want. I agree with Blub, that we will miss it, but at least we'd get a bunch of cash for a partial build.
These unpromoted units will be fine for defense/police duty after the cities start dropping. I don't see them as a waste.
Construction after optics (if at all, let's hold off as long as possible, until we really want cats). We're gonna need to get some resource trades with the other AI for happiness soon.
culdeus
Emperor
There is just one other happy resource on the entire landmass unless I missed one. J has a winery. This is insane. Maybe some random island has a cluster of dye or something out in the fog. We are going to have to prioritize Monarchy or trade for it.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
WT, if we want a chance for HG we must go straight: switsh to a baray, then HG, then forge: the forge can't pay its building time with the necessary boost to the HG.
Until Astro we cannot trade over Ocean, NOTHING!!!
Yeah, the usual horrible map Gyathaar designs.
I think We can trade for construction after Optics, but some cat will be precious to soften Shaka
OK, good idea. Squeeze an axe if he's ready before machinery, or a Spear, then Barracks and Maces.
In the meantime, build/chop the colossus in 5burg, immediately!!!
I'll post the build plan on #3
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
I played through turn 115.
The best laid plans of mice and men are bound to fail. Shaka decided to DOW us on turn 102:
I saw his stack coming one turn before and changed the production in Fifth to knock out one unpromoted mace before the barracks. That maceman (along with an axeman and a warrior who both perrished) held off Shaka's attackers. I have a small stack of macemen marching towards Shaka preparing for a counterattack now, so the next player should have some fun. Shaka razed our ivory and destroyed some roads, but the workers have since restored most of the infrastructure.
A barbarian galley also came from the north and killed our galley before razing the clams resource near Engineering. We will have a Trireme next turn to take care of him.
On a positive note, we completed the Colossus in Fifth and the HG will be finished in Engineering in 8 turns. I followed your advice Blub and skipped the forge in Engineering to get the HG done faster. I recommend that we build a forge next so that we can change the merchant (governor decided to run a merchant and I didn't see any problem with it for a few turns) to an engineer.
I decided to send the missionary to Joao to spread Confusionism. I did this more for the money than for diplomacy. We are a few turns away from a GP and Joao will spread the faith to his cities for us generating more gold from the shrine. In hind sight, this could have waited until after the war with Shaka since they now share a religion so our war will likely give us -1 with Joao (but maybe not since Shaka declared on us).
There was a spear and a warrior guarding Engineering. There is also an axe on the iron mine guarding it. Since we have maces on the way for a counterattack and are not likely to be attacked again, I moved the warrior out of Engineering. He shold arrive in Parma in two turns. My thought was to have the warrior guard Parma for happiness and free up the Maceman who is there now to contribute to the counteroffensive with Shaka.
Here is the AutoLog turn set:
Here is the turn log from the SGOTM entry:
The best laid plans of mice and men are bound to fail. Shaka decided to DOW us on turn 102:
Spoiler :
I saw his stack coming one turn before and changed the production in Fifth to knock out one unpromoted mace before the barracks. That maceman (along with an axeman and a warrior who both perrished) held off Shaka's attackers. I have a small stack of macemen marching towards Shaka preparing for a counterattack now, so the next player should have some fun. Shaka razed our ivory and destroyed some roads, but the workers have since restored most of the infrastructure.
A barbarian galley also came from the north and killed our galley before razing the clams resource near Engineering. We will have a Trireme next turn to take care of him.
Spoiler :
On a positive note, we completed the Colossus in Fifth and the HG will be finished in Engineering in 8 turns. I followed your advice Blub and skipped the forge in Engineering to get the HG done faster. I recommend that we build a forge next so that we can change the merchant (governor decided to run a merchant and I didn't see any problem with it for a few turns) to an engineer.
I decided to send the missionary to Joao to spread Confusionism. I did this more for the money than for diplomacy. We are a few turns away from a GP and Joao will spread the faith to his cities for us generating more gold from the shrine. In hind sight, this could have waited until after the war with Shaka since they now share a religion so our war will likely give us -1 with Joao (but maybe not since Shaka declared on us).
There was a spear and a warrior guarding Engineering. There is also an axe on the iron mine guarding it. Since we have maces on the way for a counterattack and are not likely to be attacked again, I moved the warrior out of Engineering. He shold arrive in Parma in two turns. My thought was to have the warrior guard Parma for happiness and free up the Maceman who is there now to contribute to the counteroffensive with Shaka.
Here is the AutoLog turn set:
Spoiler :
Here is the turn log from the SGOTM entry:
Spoiler :
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
One more thing. I lowered the research rate so that we were not hemoraging cash. Once the shrine is up and running we should be able to raise it up again. We should probably start thinking about court houses in the near future, especially since we are using our macemen to expand our empire.
culdeus
Emperor
Can we get a chop towards the HG? Even two? I'm worried it won't finish and that city needs to be available for units if this goes badly. What was our simulation time for HG somewhere in the 120-135 range right? At current rate it might not finish.
ETA: There's a merchant running in engineering. It's going to be unhappy in one turn. What's the gameplan here?
The key resource to keep is the iron now, in order to get the HG in time. Well executed with the invasion and everything. I keep wondering what the best use of Stone is.
Shaka is foolish. He'll pay for his arrogance. Is it time to do some tech swaps with J? He's got a few good techs now to go for.
ETA: There's a merchant running in engineering. It's going to be unhappy in one turn. What's the gameplan here?
The key resource to keep is the iron now, in order to get the HG in time. Well executed with the invasion and everything. I keep wondering what the best use of Stone is.
Shaka is foolish. He'll pay for his arrogance. Is it time to do some tech swaps with J? He's got a few good techs now to go for.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Seems like some good versatile play there, Mesix 
Still, we were caught out a little. This is why slavery is great in the early game. 
Oh well, we lost a few worker turns, which is regrettable, but no cities, so let's punish Shaka now.
Still, we were caught out a little. This is why slavery is great in the early game. Oh well, we lost a few worker turns, which is regrettable, but no cities, so let's punish Shaka now.Fairly unlucky, but damn, we've been talking about this for about 3 TSs now, let's get another trireme in the south as well before we lose nets down there.
Not at all, I was just noting what needed to happen after the mids was BIDL. You did well.Balthalion said:
I was wondering when this sentiment would surface.BLubmuz said:
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
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I'll take a look at the save in the morning and try to come up with a plan. This will be just like one of my regular games. Shaka always declares war at an inopportune time and screws up my plans. The Colossus worked out great. I'll see about chops to hurry the HG.
I see Shaka has Ponies and Copper hooked up, me thinks he's been planning a little conquest On the upside, at least we got our Marble back...
I see Shaka has Ponies and Copper hooked up, me thinks he's been planning a little conquest
On the upside, at least we got our Marble back...
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Well played, Mesix.
Good report, too, just you extended a bit... usually we shorten the TSs in wartime.
So, we built the Colossus in 2 turns? great!
That mine destroyed near Parma shows me Shaka arrived very close... impis are great for their movement.
When did we gave tribute to Joao?
We can try to offer CoL to Joao for Monarchy and another tech. I'd like to hold Alpha.
Noticed Shaka has construction ... sure we fight this war without it?
3 maces are not enough to take and keep safely uMung (we'll have to rename that), better wait for reinforcements.
The Axe on iron can be moved to help keep uMung.
8-9 turns/TS now, it's wartime GB, go through turn 123-124, OK?
Luxuries: there're Wine and incense near Coimbra, and furs on the SE peninsula.
A city 1NE of furs will have marble, furs, sheep and fish in BFC... there's also a barb city worth keep (if coastal) near some deer.
Marble is running 2 merchants!We need scientists!!!
GB. to avoid accumulate too much GMer points, switch between merchant and scientists in Engineering.
That forest can be a workshop, if we have time to build it.
We need also another worker, my rule is usually Workers = #cities+1
Good report, too, just you extended a bit... usually we shorten the TSs in wartime.
So, we built the Colossus in 2 turns? great!
That mine destroyed near Parma shows me Shaka arrived very close... impis are great for their movement.
When did we gave tribute to Joao?
We can try to offer CoL to Joao for Monarchy and another tech. I'd like to hold Alpha.
Noticed Shaka has construction ... sure we fight this war without it?
3 maces are not enough to take and keep safely uMung (we'll have to rename that), better wait for reinforcements.
The Axe on iron can be moved to help keep uMung.
8-9 turns/TS now, it's wartime GB, go through turn 123-124, OK?
Luxuries: there're Wine and incense near Coimbra, and furs on the SE peninsula.
A city 1NE of furs will have marble, furs, sheep and fish in BFC... there's also a barb city worth keep (if coastal) near some deer.
Marble is running 2 merchants!We need scientists!!!
GB. to avoid accumulate too much GMer points, switch between merchant and scientists in Engineering.
That forest can be a workshop, if we have time to build it.
We need also another worker, my rule is usually Workers = #cities+1
I need some more time to digest this massive TS. On the bright side, Mesix seems to have handled Shaka well. There is a lot of MM that needs attending to. Worker orders need to be cancelled.
Merchants are actually better than scientists, in this instance, for 2 reasons. 1) we can run the slider higher and get more science than running scientists. 2) We get GM points instead of GS points. We need a couple GM, but we'll get those easily, so no need to try for them too hard.
However, there's still the question of whether we should be running ANY specialists. We have colossus and are working only 4 water tiles. I like 100% chance of getting the GMen we want, so I'm not sure about the Engineering Merchant.
When we get monarchy, Switch to HeredRule and slavery?
Not enough time now....hold off on the next TS.
Merchants are actually better than scientists, in this instance, for 2 reasons. 1) we can run the slider higher and get more science than running scientists. 2) We get GM points instead of GS points. We need a couple GM, but we'll get those easily, so no need to try for them too hard.
However, there's still the question of whether we should be running ANY specialists. We have colossus and are working only 4 water tiles. I like 100% chance of getting the GMen we want, so I'm not sure about the Engineering Merchant.
When we get monarchy, Switch to HeredRule and slavery?
Not enough time now....hold off on the next TS.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
culdeus
Emperor
The critical part of the next TS is the worker movements. Those need to be meticulously drawn up as we are really short on workers right now. I have little to no confidence we can get the HG without a chop. The roading worker can go chop the GF in eng and head back to chop maces with the rivered GP near the capital.
Is doubling up the workers to re-mine parma the best idea?
Perhaps make a few maces and then pop one more worker. There is/are a ton of things to do including cottaging the capital, engineering, and laying down lots of roads to hookup all the resources we may trade.
There is nice cover for the advance to the SW of Isthmus. May be worth a right hook movement before heading to the capital. Just hope he didn't plop anything too far down the middle finger.
Isthmus can be approached without ever taking the maces out of cover. We can attack from NE of the city. Keep units NE and NE-E and the Iron will be cutoff from any chariot pillagers.
I see this as a 3 city takeover then cease fire. If he pushed some stuff down the fingers they will be worthless cities and easily broken without any losses. Techs gained in this maneuver will not count against our WAFYBTA or will they?
Is doubling up the workers to re-mine parma the best idea?
Perhaps make a few maces and then pop one more worker. There is/are a ton of things to do including cottaging the capital, engineering, and laying down lots of roads to hookup all the resources we may trade.
There is nice cover for the advance to the SW of Isthmus. May be worth a right hook movement before heading to the capital. Just hope he didn't plop anything too far down the middle finger.
Isthmus can be approached without ever taking the maces out of cover. We can attack from NE of the city. Keep units NE and NE-E and the Iron will be cutoff from any chariot pillagers.
I see this as a 3 city takeover then cease fire. If he pushed some stuff down the fingers they will be worthless cities and easily broken without any losses. Techs gained in this maneuver will not count against our WAFYBTA or will they?
Stoneopolis: is not working its clams
Marbles: how about 1 merchant and then ocean tiles (NOT capitol's fish)
Parma: Mace can move out this turn (before warrior arrives)
Capitol : Work Fish. Grow.
War... I know few will agree, but something to consider: Let our macemen do as much damage as possible in the next 2-3 turns. Then call cease fire for 10 turns. By then we will probably have found the other AI and traded for construction and healed our macemen and built a large enough army for a swift 2nd war.
Marbles: how about 1 merchant and then ocean tiles (NOT capitol's fish)
Parma: Mace can move out this turn (before warrior arrives)
Capitol : Work Fish. Grow.
War... I know few will agree, but something to consider: Let our macemen do as much damage as possible in the next 2-3 turns. Then call cease fire for 10 turns. By then we will probably have found the other AI and traded for construction and healed our macemen and built a large enough army for a swift 2nd war.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Why? we gain bad relations with Joao (for what is worth), but mainly, if we DoW him our WW will grow faster. You cannot know for sure the AI we'll meet is/are willing to trade construction, and we need no less than 5-6 cats to be effective.
Time to contact, trade, build, bring at the front and Shaka will reinforce.
We too, but we're cranking 1 mace every turn on average,we can afford to loose a couple.
No, my vote is to go straight to Shaka's destruction.
He will never trade a monopoly tech, in any case, so let's wipe him, before it's too late.
This is only one part of the war, soon will follow the Portuguese one
.berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
Just looked at the save.
Agreed with WT, Stoneopolis should change a forested grass to the clams. Faster growth + coins.
Marbles should switch a merchant to scientist and have the other one work the forested grass.
I think the war should go on til Shaka's gone. If we don't, we'll run into alot of red faces "wanting to return to the motherland" and that's just a waste.
Also, if link that Sweet mentioned in his previous post, if you turn on "yield display" you'll notice that a WB can indeed cross over.
Agreed with WT, Stoneopolis should change a forested grass to the clams. Faster growth + coins.
Marbles should switch a merchant to scientist and have the other one work the forested grass.
I think the war should go on til Shaka's gone. If we don't, we'll run into alot of red faces "wanting to return to the motherland" and that's just a waste.
Also, if link that Sweet mentioned in his previous post, if you turn on "yield display" you'll notice that a WB can indeed cross over.
culdeus
Emperor
I'm not sure what to do after optics. I think we can easily get monarchy from J.
If the war proceeds like I think it will we will take the isthmus city and then move briefly to the SW while waiting for reinforcements to make a 6-9 mace stack to take the capital city then either cease fire or spread out and finish him.
There just won't be any time for cats to make any impact whatsoever in this war and S probably doesn't have any other big cities except his capital that are worth bombing. I figure to sweep up everything perhaps t140 to finish? Depends on how spread out he is.
Realistically a t135 contact with multiple AI to the West. So there will just by default need to be something we self research in the wait. But what?
If the war proceeds like I think it will we will take the isthmus city and then move briefly to the SW while waiting for reinforcements to make a 6-9 mace stack to take the capital city then either cease fire or spread out and finish him.
There just won't be any time for cats to make any impact whatsoever in this war and S probably doesn't have any other big cities except his capital that are worth bombing. I figure to sweep up everything perhaps t140 to finish? Depends on how spread out he is.
Realistically a t135 contact with multiple AI to the West. So there will just by default need to be something we self research in the wait. But what?
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