SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

greatbeyond · Dec 18, 2008

You're right WT, I said SP when it should have been Emancipation. Once we get Corporations, I would suggest switching to get unlimited GP

Mesix, I'll double check , but I think you're right. They'll just get CR3 and not lose any experience when upgrading. Anyone know anything different?

I'll try to make sure I locate the WB you're talking about WT. It's getting easier to forget about a unit or city que every turn.

Balthalion, I'm not convinced on the trade with Augustus either. I wish it was more gold. Perhaps waiting a turn may be good. I'm not too worried about giving away Communism, perhaps I should be. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Great People - I will try to manage for our last 2 required GP, a GM and GS. After that GEs are the best means for speeding our game. GAs can be handy but they will not be at the top of the priority list. If we happen to get a GPro and a GSpy (due to bad luck) at some point we should consider a Golden Age. We won't have to worry about this for a while.

I'll play in about 10 - 12 hours. I'll check for any other comments before doing so.

Sweetacshon · Dec 19, 2008

Hello, hello, I'm back with civ. I'm surprised to see our lack of progress, but unlike Blubmuz, I'm not worried about it. I do not feel we are under time pressure.

The plan sounds ok. With demands off vassals, we get one for free, right? I've never had a vassal declare on me for many demands, but I've never pushed it. I get the feeling G never would, tho, being such a whimp.

Re: GMen, I feel we should go for those that we need first, before angling for late GEs for wonders, it's a little safer. Re: GG- if we are getting MS, is an academy at all viable? +50% unit prod'n in a city in ex-india could be good. Otherwise the 4 mace to CR3 rifle trick is a good one.

@WT: Good point about banks, etc. :thumbsup:

I always forget that the research/gold builds are post-commerce and don't get the multipliers. You are a micro-master. :hatsoff:

MacBalt · Dec 19, 2008

WastinTime said:
It took me a while to un-learn this. Your suggestion applies to vanilla Civ, not BTS. I always tried to build research in the captial if anywhere, but in BTS it doesn't matter. The multipliers don't affect wealth/research building. Forge/IW however DOES count in BTS. So building wealth in Engineering is a good idea...where it would have been a bad idea in Vanilla civ....follow me?

I get it (I think): Hammers translated to gold/wealth gets the forge/IW modifiers (for calculating total hammer output) but in BTS does NOT then also get the bank/market/commerce building modifiers (that would effectively take the already modified gold output from those original hammers and multiply it a second time), whereas in vanilla the total gold output would have effectively gotten both sets of multipliers/modifiers?

I'm not sure I said it any clearer in the end, but I think I get it/follow you anyway. It's kind of a dense lesson (or learner

), but important to know. Thanks for helping me understand it!

Mesix said:
If you have him join in a tile with...

edit: actually 4 maces with 5 exp each (out the gate with CR2) would split 20 exp (5 each) getting them to the required 10 exp to get CR 3 and not lose any exp after upgrading. Is my math correct?

Yes, this sounds right to me. Our barracks and settled Great General is kicking out Maces with 5xp (3 from the barracks and 2 from the GG). A Great Military leader would split his 20 exactly the way you describe, so we should have him join a stack of four CR2 maces when we are ready to use him. Good call. :thumbsup:

EDIT: X-post with Sweetacshon

MacBalt · Dec 19, 2008

Welcome back Sweeta!

Sweetacshon said:
Re: GG- if we are getting MS, is an academy at all viable? +50% unit prod'n in a city in ex-india could be good. Otherwise the 4 mace to CR3 rifle trick is a good one.

I completely forgot about this possibility. Hmm... I still lean toward getting that stack of CR3 promoted maces/riflemen. CR3 is SO good, and we're going to need that firepower sooner rather than later to get where we want to go, I think.

BLubmuz · Dec 19, 2008

Producing wealth/research: I know that in Vanilla (and probably in Warlords) multipliers like forge, IW, factory/power are not considered. They are in BtS.

Are you saying that those hammers are not multiplied by commerce/research buildings? I have to verify, but it seems they are in BtS.

War Academy? dunno if it pays the CR3 for 4 units and the free upgrade for one of them.

WastinTime · Dec 19, 2008

Balthalion said:
I get it (I think): Hammers translated to gold/wealth gets the forge/IW modifiers (for calculating total hammer output) but in BTS does NOT then also get the bank/market/commerce building modifiers (that would effectively take the already modified gold output from those original hammers and multiply it a second time), whereas in vanilla the total gold output would have effectively gotten both sets of multipliers/modifiers?

I think you have the BTS part correct now.
Vanilla however is quite different. It does not get multipliers like forge, etc, and worse than that you get only 50% hammers (rounded down). So 1 hammer gets you nothing. But then you get the bank modifiers, etc.

Building wealth/research got way better in BTS.

greatbeyond · Dec 19, 2008

The Save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/Fifth_Element_SG008_AD1640_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

The turn log:

Spoiler :

greatbeyond · Dec 19, 2008

2nd half of turn log:

Spoiler :

Commentary to come

greatbeyond · Dec 19, 2008

1st half of autolog:

Spoiler :

greatbeyond · Dec 19, 2008

2nd half of autolog:

Spoiler :

The big bad news is AC beat us to the SOL by 7T. He built it in Cumae.

We lost just a couple of units at very favorable odds. Our military is slowly getting bigger, it's just taking time to get them to the front.

There was an AP vote between us and Pericles. He is the frontrunner with 312 votes. We have our 119 and Gandhi's 32. Boudica has 122, AC has 113, and Charlie has 109. I don't think we can win an AP vote, even if we get everyone's vote but Pericles.

We have taken both Tolosa and Vienne. Bilbactre should fall in the next TS and then it's on to AC's cities.

We got our GE in Engineering and our next GP should be in Delhi in 7T. Delhi is a mix of all the different GPs and it looks like a crap shoot to get anyone but a GProphet.

For whomever takes the save next, the Workers on the 2nd continent have run out of things to do. It may be time to send some of them home. I have skipped them so You'll have to go through the cities to gather them up. Some units were moved and some have yet to be moved. I didn't want to take all the fun away from the next person. Some of the units in Tolose are ready to move out toward Bilbactre.

I did trade Pericles Communism for MS and some gold. Everyone else had it and it will save us some time. On the downside, I did not realize that once we had MS, we can only make Grenadiers and not Maces. Perhaps it wasn't such a good trade.

MacBalt · Dec 19, 2008

Okay, I just took a quick look at the save. Things seem pretty good to me. Well done GB! :thumbsup:

Too bad about Military Science (& the GL). Of course I forgot about losing the ability to produce Macemen too. Oh well, we couldn't keep that going forever... and I noticed that you did manage to get a good number of CR3 promotions for our existing macemen. :goodjob:

I'll post a plan for the next six turns by sometime tomorrow. Bibracte will fall in four turns, and it looks to me like we can get both Gergovia and Camulodonum by that time too without much trouble.

Charlie is still very backward and should probably be our next target. Will do my best to get us set up for an attack on the Holy Roman Empire in the next turn set.

I'm still betting we're going to have revolt problems in Calcutta, Agra, and Lahore. We can weather a revolt in Calcutta because the HRE's cultural pressure will be removed before it has time to flip. One way to deal with Agra and/or Lahore might be to just give one or both to Augustus Caesar. Does anyone know if there are any wonders in those cities we should be protective about?

Mesix, could you post that list of cities with the wonders we need to target again?

EDIT: I found it HERE (I think). Have there been any updates?

I'd like to micromanage Delhi to maximize Merchants, but it is going to need a lighthouse to do much of anything. Any objections?

More soon...

MacBalt · Dec 19, 2008

Is Aachen really the only city we need in the HRE? Charlie might a good "quick capitulation" candidate. I might start sending some units up through Rome and Greece to get into position for an invasion from the north too.

EDIT: Might just as well send them right up through the HRE itself and scout our objectives along the way... :ninja:

Sweetacshon · Dec 20, 2008

It sounds like things went well... I'll be able to check the save on Sunday. I can't believe we got beaten to the SoL. Oh well, in the grand scheme of things, it shouldn't reduce our wonder score much at all.

While defending in Celtic territory at Vienne, Cavalry loses to: Celtic Maceman (6.24/8) (Prob Victory: 9.2%)

What happened, did you hang a cav out by itself?

Turn 238, 1640 AD: Your population: 356, plus growth: 1 (41.85%) will put close to the Domination Limit: 366 (43.00%).
Turn 238, 1640 AD: Your land area: 376 (29.49%) is close to the Domination Limit: 790 (62.00%).

OK, so we have enough pop, but only half the land now. We need to keep a close eye on this.

BLubmuz · Dec 20, 2008

Seems a good TS, GB.
The lost SoL is surely not your fault. In BtS AC is Industrious. Maybe he rushed a GE too?
Now, i must look at the save before post something useful.
We already have 2 Roman cities to conquer, now we need Cumae too.

Some thought on our VC.
Since we need to fight also with Pericles, who has some wonder, can be conquest (vassallize everyone) our target?

Mesix · Dec 20, 2008

I will not have an opportunity to look at the save file or analyze the current state of wonders built for a day or two. I am behind schedule finishing my research papers for school. I have one paper left to write on the topic of Commercial Space Flight which will take me a day or two to finish. Once I have finished meeting the obligations for my education, I will be able to return to my passion of spending uncounted hours playing games while generally ignoring my real life responsibilities to work, family, and society.

As you can probably tell by my sarcasm, I have been sleep deprived these last few days while trying to meet time sensitive completion requirements for school due to my propensity to procrastinate.

WastinTime · Dec 21, 2008

Didn't realize we were seriously considering trading for MS.

I see we are on Corporation. Realize that there are NO beakers in it yet, so we can switch to anything we want. Biology? We need corp soon to get the pentagon going and mt. rush. Getting it from B is the plan I suppose.

Leiria must start Hollywood now. Good job starting the other wonders. I think the city choices you made are pretty good for the current wonders. But our best cities are going to be busy for a while on these expensive wonders.

WastinTime · Dec 21, 2008

War: let's not get distracted by other B cities. Take Bibracte ASAP and get Corp free. If she won't give it, then take a city. I thought we'd have Bibracte already. It was only 4-5 turns from falling at the end of my TS and now I'm hearing it's still 4 turns out. Tick Tock.

WastinTime · Dec 21, 2008

Our 3rd GE is most likely needed for Pentagon. We'll never build that without some help.
Mt. Rush is very small. Red Cross needs 6 hospitals first. So Biology -> medicine seems like the way to go next.

We need to assume Delhi will not give a GM. Ulundi needs to focus on GM only. Guimaraes is our next best backup 95% GM right now, but probably needs a speed boost to it's birth rate. Unfortunately we need to focus on this GM...which we had in the bag earlier :mad:

We'll need a miracle to get a GS too. We only have time to pop 2 or 3 more gmen total.

MacBalt · Dec 21, 2008

WastinTime said:
War: let's not get distracted by other B cities. Take Bibracte ASAP and get Corp free.

Ha! Well, I'm afraid you aren't going to like my pretty map this time then, but I already did it so might as well float it now. I'll just note that our troops can't get to Bibracte for 4 turns (the cavalry in Vienne needs a couple of turns to heal), so we might as well get what we can take in the meantime.

Here is the proposed Pre-play plan:

Draft PPPlan:

TURNS TO PLAY: Finish 238, play 239-244.
RESEARCH PATH: Biology (2t), Medicine (3t), Assembly Line (3t).
CURRENT CIVICS: Representation, Bureaucracy, Emancipation, State Property, Pacifism (No Changes).
SCIENCE/GOLD/CULTURE:
- Current Gold = 1328
- Science Rate: 100% (+1989 beakers/turn)
- Espionage Rate: 0%
- Culture Rate: 0%
- Gold Rate: 0% (-191 gold/turn)
INHERITED TURN: Maybe move some workers around; maybe move some garrison units toward the front if it won’t leave the city without a defender; maybe nothing.
BUILD ORDERS (for cities not building wealth or a cheap homeland security unit:
- Fifthburg: Continue United Nations (22t).
- Marbles: Finish Globe Theater (1t), then galleon (3t), then wealth.
- Engineering: Finish Cristo Redentor (7t), begin ~~Hollywood (11t)~~ next Wonder.
- Stoneopolis: Finish Frigate (1t), continue to build Frigates (6t).
- Farcanal: Finish Cavalry (3t), then build Explorers (2t/each) for garrison duty so better units can go to the front.
- Ulundi: Build Wealth.
- Nobamba: Set to build Cannons (2t/each).
- Nongoma: Continue Broadway (12t).
- Leiria: Switch to Hollywood now.
- Evora: Continue Rock-n-Roll (17t).
- Lisbon: Finish Cavalry (3t), then set to build Explorers (2t/each).
- Lagos: Finish Frigate (6t), begin Galleon (6t).
- Braga: Change from Wealth to Explorers (3t/each). Back to wealth after a few of these units.
- Delhi: Finish Airship (1t), then Lighthouse (3t), then Barracks (2t), then Cannons (4t/each).
- Yasodharapura: Finish Forge (6t), then Harbor (2t).
- Bombay: Continue Eiffel Tower (20t).
- Vijayanogara: Continue West Point (8t).
- Faro: MM to starve the city to get that Grenadier pumped out in 13 turns. The city can only take 15 turns of starvation though, so the next player will have to be careful to reconfigure this city at the appropriate time. We should have built an explorer here instead (or nothing at all).
- Lahore: Continue Airship (8t – 29h investment). (Consider building Culture next.) Lahore has a 5.71% chance of revolt so I will try to station some additional units here for the invasion of Rome once they become available.
- Varanasi: Finish Airship (1t), then Lighthouse (4t), then Barracks (4t), then Cannon (7t).
- Petaliputra: Finish Airship (4t), begin Bank (13t).
- Agra: Finish Library (9t), then build culture.
- Calcutta: Finish Airship (3t), then build culture and fiddle while the people starve. This city is in trouble.
- Verlamion: Continue Lighthouse (58 29t).
- Durocortorum: Continue Lighthouse (11t).
- Tolosa: Continue Theater (51t).
- Vienne: Continue Theater (51t).
- All Other Cities: are building either wealth or a cheap defense unit (Explorer) to free a good unit for use on offense. These cities will be managed to maximize growth potential first and hammers (for wealth) second.
CITY PRIORITIES (only for cities where a change from the current configuration is suggested):
- Fifthburg: Hammers (United Nations). Pop=18 (happy = 32/19, health = 27/19). 6 turns to growth. Is there a reason we’re maximizing growth here? Switching from a coast to an Engineer takes two turns off of the UN (but delays growth from 6 to 16 turns). I think the turns saved on the UN are worth it, but with only six turns until growth I’ll wait until then to make the switch. Any objections?
- Farcanal: Growth. Pop=14 There is a Town 2W/1S of FarCanal that I would like to Workshop over and transfer to the control of Nobamba. This will give more hammers to our military production center and stabilize the food/growth situation there too. Any objections?
- Ulundi: Growth. Pop=18. Fire the non-merchant specialists and work two workshops instead in order to maximize our chances of a Great Merchant here.
- Nobamba: Hammers. Pop=11. Put a workshop over the town 2N/1E of Nobamba (currently controlled by FarCanal) and transfer control to Nobamba. This will maximize hammers and growth in Nobamba where they are more useful than in FarCanal.
- Nongoma: Hammers. Pop=11. MM to work PH Mine instead of desert hill mine for one less gold, same stagnant growth, but Broadway one turn sooner (13 to 12).
- Leiria: Hammers. Pop=10. There is a village 2W of Leiria that probably should be changed to a workshop. The city can grow two more times before needing the tile though, so I’ll probably just leave it for now.
- Evora: Hammers (Rock-n-Roll). Pop=11. Evora can get an extra hammer by stealing the spice tile (2W/1S of city) from Oporto. This shaves one turn off of Rock-n-Roll (18 to 17).
- Guimaraes: Wealth/Hammers. Pop=11. MM to avoid starvation. Farm the grass tile (1N/2E) and the two plains-river tiles needed to spread irrigation to the grass tile (2N & 2N/1E) in order to get the city growing again.
- Delhi: Great Person Points. Pop=14. Work Village tile from Durocortorum (2S/1E) and Spice tile from Bombay (2N/1W) to get enough food to employ two additional merchants in Delhi. This disadvantages Bombay (Eiffel Tower), but only for 4 turns, when Delhi’s new Lighthouse is scheduled to come on line. Bombay will starve (-1F) for 4 turns, but can take it for up to 6 turns. The advantage of doing this is that we get a great leader 1 turn sooner in Delhi (6t vs. 7t) and we maximize our chances for a Great Merchant (now @ 25%).
- Bombay: Hammers (Eiffel Tower). Pop=12. Starving after MM to advantage Delhi for 4 turns (see “Delhi” above), but the reconfiguration gives Bombay another Priest, which actually speeds the Eiffel Tower along by 2 turns (22 to 20). Bombay must reconfigure again within 6 turns in order to avoid population loss from starvation though.
- Faro: Hammers. Pop=3. MM to starve the city to get that Grenadier pumped out in 13 turns. The city can only take 15 turns of starvation though, so the next player will have to be careful to reconfigure this city at the appropriate time. We should have built an explorer here instead (or nothing at all).
- Petaliputra: Hammers. Pop=10. MM to get more hammers despite stagnant growth. Lots of dry (non-irrigated) plains farms here. The city can grow again once Biology goes on-line. For now, the city has 2 towns and a fair amount of commerce. We should build a bank and maybe a market to take advantage of that.
- Varanasi: Scramble. Pop=12. Give up one sugar tile to Agra to help that city minimize starvation. Varanasi will starve for five turns until a Lighthouse is built, but can take it for up to six turns. I’ll make sure things are stabilized by then.
- Agra: Growth. Pop=10, but starving and losing population now. This is a city in trouble. With Roman cultural pressure it has a 6.73% chance of revolt. Will see what I can do, but don’t hold your breath. (Agra will probably have to limp along as best it can until the long term solution gets implemented.)
- Calcutta: Growth. Pop=8, but starving and losing population now. This city is in big trouble. With HRE cultural pressure it has a whopping 8.21% chance of revolt. Will see what I can do, but don’t hold your breath. (We should consider gifting Calcutta to Charlie if we don’t decide to kill him right away. Calcutta has no wonders.)
- Verlamion: Growth. Pop=6. MM to use dry farm tile (1N,2E) to reduce LH time from 58t to 29t. (It’s probably still too slow, but...)
- Tolosa: In revolt for 5 more turns, then we’ll see...
- Vienne: In revolt for 7 more turns, then we’ll see…
WORKERS:
- Put Workshop on the FarCanal/Nobamba tile for Nobamba to work.
- No other obvious worker tasks left so I will pack them into “safe” cities by threes and fours.
MILITARY: (See also the following post)
- GOAL #1: Finish the conquest of Celtia in 4 turns (capturing Bibracte, Gergovia, & Camulodunum) and accept Boudica’s capitulation.
- GOAL #2: Begin positioning troops for the Invasion of Rome (& Perhaps the HRE too?). Upgrade best troops in invasion force to Infantry.
- See the subsequent post with attached maps for more detailed plans to achieve these goals.
TECHNOLOGY TRADING:
- Get Corporation from Boudica on turn 4 with capitulation.
- No obvious available trades this turnset.
- Technology gifts? – None this turnset.
RESOURCE TRADING: Not critical. Will watch for easy trades.
CIVICS CHANGES: None this turnset.
POLITICAL DEMANDS:
- Don’t give in to any demands.
- Do not give in to any demands that would require anarchy (religion or civics change).
- Do not join any wars.
FINAL PLAY NOTES: If any significant new unexpected event occurs, stop and consult the team about our options.

EDIT: I can't remember if I explained or not that I'd like to build some explorers to garrison some of our cities. We've got a fair number of good CR2 units sitting at home harassing the local townspeople when they should be out kicking *ss. Anyone see any reason why I shouldn't do this?

MacBalt · Dec 21, 2008

Map #1 shows the plan for finishing Boudica in 4 turns. The numbers in the bubbles are turn numbers.
Map #2 illustrates the locations of the World Wonders we still need to capture (updated from Mesix's original).
Map #3 suggests a long-range attack plan. The main idea presented here is to attack Rome from Greece and then immediately double-back to DOW Pericles and take Thebes. We could also launch attacks from Agra and/or by sea. (Additional pressure could be put on Greece if we were to send another force up through the HRE -- if we can scrape up enough units.)

CURRENT CITY DEFENDERS:

Bibracte: 2 Muskets, 1 War Elephant, 1 Maceman, 1 Longbow, 1 Gallic Warrior, 1 Catapult, (1 Caravel)
Camulodunum: 1 Musket, 2 Longbows, 1 Pikeman, (1 Galleon), (2 Caravels)
Gergovia: Unknown (probably 1 Musket and 2 to 4 additional old units)

ATTACK FORCE COMPOSITIONS:

Main Force to Bibracte: All units currently in Tolosa except for the 5-6 units sent by sea to Camulodunum with Force #2 and two rifles left to garrison the city (about 5 Cannons, 3 Cavalry, and 7 Rifles).
Force #2 (by sea): At least five units from Tolosa. Probably 3 Rifles and 2 Cavalry. Camulodunum gets softened-up by Frigate and/or Airship bombardments.
Cavalry Force: Send a healthy unit out to scout Gergovia’s defenders on turn 2. (Everyone else in Vienne heals for 2 turns.) On turn 3, divide the force with sufficient numbers sent to Gergovia to insure its capture. Everyone else (except a garrison force) goes to Bibracte to support that attack. Both cities fall on turn 4. Gergovia gets softened up by Frigate and/or Airship bombardment.

SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

King

In the foetal position

Learnéd Fool

Learnéd Fool

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

King

King

King

King

Learnéd Fool

Learnéd Fool

In the foetal position

HoF Quattromaster

Obergruppenführer

Deity

Deity

Deity

Learnéd Fool

Learnéd Fool

Attachments

Similar threads