SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

Our current wonder score is 180/310 meaning that we have completed 36 wonders.

We are currently building 6 more:
United Nations
Pentagon
Hollywood
Rock & Roll
Eifel Tower
Wall Street

We can build 2 more national wonders:
National Park
Red Cross

We can build 2 corporations:
Sid Sushi
Civilized Jewelers

We plan to take 5 wonders from Rome:
Statue of Liberty
Great Library
Shwedagon Paya
Chichen Itza
Pyramids

We also plan to take 1 from Greece:
Spiral Minaret

The wonders that we are building will all be done in 11 turns or less.

We may be able to finish warring in about 15 tuns.

Based on the tech path that I outlined above that would give us 3 more corporations and 1 more national wonder.

Red Cross may be a stretch in that time since it requires 6 Hospitals, so we'll count it out for this analysis.

It is turn 250. We could have 55 wonders by the time we finish off Greece. Assuming quick wars and a turn 265 finish date, that would give us an average of 1 wonder for every 4.8 turns or almost 0.21 wonders per turn. If 15 more turns nets us 2 more corporations, the 3GD, RC, and the Shrine in Rhodes that would be 5 additional wonders in 15 turns. Our average would be better to 1 wonder every 4.6 turns or over 0.21 wonders per turn.

In short, planning for a 30 turn victory while utilizing our corporations will give is time to adjust for a less than perfect war and also time to build the hospitals, research the additional techs, and rush out the remaining wonders necessary.

State Property nets us no gain for the rest of the game. Why keep it running? It fueled our expansion, but we can now do much better to usilize the benefits that corporations provides to us.

To get the benefits faster, we could found Mining Inc on the mainland in a city that can crank out execs. Parma might be a good choice. Then it could spread to both 5th and Engineering within a few turns.
 
There's no reason we can't get RC in time, like we should have if we had started hospitals. It's not efficient to buy wonders, but we could rushbuy to finish a couple hospitals.

Engineering can build: Hospital 2 turns, Pentagon 10, RC 6 turns. That's about perfect. Plastics should come in then and it can start 3GD. That means we have 12 turns to build/rush the other 5 hospitals.

Update:
....I just checked the save. Hospitals can easily be built in 5-8 turns. Evora (rocknroll in 5 can do a hospital first) Fifth can also do one before UN, etc. No rushing needed. We can easily find a city to do RC in time. It's only 600. Engineering is not necessary, but the timing above does seem to work out nicely.

Speaking of rushbuying...
I see we've also ignored Factories/Power so far. Certain cities might benefit from rush buying these, but it's pretty much too late to build any now. Putting 400 hammers into factory/coal plant will not pay for itself in most cities. Probably only Engineering will get these. (BTW. rushing a factory, lets us run more engineers)

Getting both a GS and a GP are needed for the 30 turn plan. (miracles) So we rush these births and see what happens. If we get a Prophet, we should be able to get Rhodes by the 22 turn deadline.

Tech path:

Fascism
Rail
Combust
Indust
Plastics
Refrig

This is about 21-22 turns.
If we get GS then maybe Artil/Rocketry, but this is a waste of time unless another wonder/shrine can be obtained in the time needed for this research. That could happen, so let's watch for it.

To summarize, our goal should be winning when we get Refrig. Even if we get a GS, we don't really want to go to Rocketry if we don't have to. i.e. we need a 2nd reason to go there...like we need more time to capture Rhodes, or something goes wrong with our conquest plan.
 
Mesix said:
State Property nets us no gain for the rest of the game. Why keep it running? It fueled our expansion, but we can now do much better to usilize the benefits that corporations provides to us.
Click to expand...

Dropping StateProperty Will probably cost us 20% research. So instead of running 80%, we'd have to drop to 60%. I don't see what you are referring to when you mention "nets us no gain". The 30 turn plan you outlined goes to 38 turns if we switch out of SP.

Then if you incorporate, and :eek: expand w/ execs, our research drops to 50%.

I really would like to play a game that abuses or at least uses the corporations. This isn't it sadly. :sad:
 
I think you under estimate the combination of civics and corporations that I have outlined. With the additional specialists from Mercantalism (which can be either scientists or merchants) along with additional specialists that we can run from having Sushi in the specialist farms, we should have a net gain of research after the change.

State Property is overrated. It was nice in Vanila, but once corporations came in BTS they are generally better.

With the 30 turn plan, we should get corporations and spread Mining and Sushi to key cities. If we are going to wrap this up in 15 turns then I agree that we can wait until one turn before the win to switch civics and pop all the corps that we have available.

If you are really worried about upkeep, then we can spread Sushi to cities with wonders and gift the additional cities that we don't need to AI leaders nearby (but not the original owner). We don't need the buffer from culture flipping if we are generating 100+ culture in the cities of interest (with wonders).
 
This is the combo that will net us the best gain in a 30 turn plan:

Representation (+3 research per specialist - already running)
Free Speech (Will give us +2 commerce per town and +100% culture to prevent flipping)
Caste System (allow us to run unlimited specialists of key types)
Mercantilism (free specialist in every city)
Pacifism (+50% GPP - already runing)

We can run scientists and merchants in a lot of cities to save our post communism economy.

We can run unlimited scientists in Ulundi to get the GS to pop.

Extra food in Delhi from Sushi will allow us to run more prophets to build the Shrine in Rhodes.

We can get extra production in key cities from Mining Inc to build wonders.

We can get extra food in key cities from Sid Sushi to run extra specialists.

We can get extra culture from Sid Sushi in wonder cities on the far continent to prevent flipping.

We already have Forbidden Palace and Versais to reduce maintenance. We can build Courthouses in cities with wonders that need Sushi to generate culture.
 
For every 4 resources, Sushi will support an additional specialist. This is an upkeep of 4 gold to run a merchant that produses 3 gold. It sounds like a loss, but with a Courthouse the maint drops to 2 per specialist or a net gain of 1 for every 4 resources. If Delhi is the corp HQ then every city with Sushi returns an additional 1 gold + modifiers. That is +2 gold up front and an additional +1 when WS finishes (+25% from market, +25% from grocier, +50% from bank, +100% from Wall St).

26 Sushi resources per city costs 26 gold (only 13 with a courthouse).
Running 6 merchants (24/4=8) recovers 18 gold
Corp HQ in Delhi produces 3 more gold

That is potentially 8 gold/research gain for each city with Sushi+ a Courthouse.

If Corp maintenance is really a concern, then we can run Free Market for the -25% modifier, but I think the additional specialist from Mercantilism is better. BTW, running scientists has the same effect on the economy as merchants since reducing the slider for gold but producing more research from specialists to compensate has the same net effet. Running Scientists will be better in a city that will pop a great person since we can get the extra GS needed for the final corp.

With all of the additional specialists, the +3 research per specialist from Representation will be huge. Add 18 raw research to the above example and that is a net gain of 26 research for every city with Sushi + a Courthouse. Even without a Courthouse it is a small gain.

It is concievable that switching civics and building our 2 key corporations immediately could reduce the 30 turn plan to a 25 or fewer turn plan. It will take some good micromanagement of specialists to get the most from it.
 
We can rush a few corp execs up front and then let the cities that they spread to build more to populate them to key cities in the shortest time.
 
Hey, I'm on the run but I opened the save and whoever is up next needs to do something about Bibracte. It looks like it is in revolt again. If we don't station enough troops there to prevent another revolt it could easily flip back to Boudica and we lose our wonders there. I forget how many are in that city but I think it should be a top priority not to let it flip -- even if it delays our wars a bit.

By the way, nice warring Mesix. You did it! :thumbsup:

Too bad about Vienne, but I'd go for the capitulation now. We'll need to station troops in both Aachen and Bibracte (and we shouldn't ever move the ones in Bibracte), but that is better than fighting longer to get Vienne back or take Prague.

Just an idea --> Should we use some kind of green light system where at least half the team needs to approve the PPP before the set is played? I think we'd be doing much better if we could get both our MM and our warring ironed out before sets are played instead of after.
 
Balth, I think Bibracte didn't revolt. It just hasn't ever come out of the first revolt yet.

Mesix. I don't know where to begin. There is simply no way to make corps work. Sushi is a nightmare for maint costs. It takes time to grow your city, you don't just get instantly 10 more population to run 10 more specialists. Also, with Emancip turned off, we are going to be on the edge of happiness balance. More population will just be more angry citizens. It would take 50 turns to attempt to stablize the economy. You are greatly underestimating the damage we take from Merc instead of SP. and the cost of corporations, the cost of building/rushing execs, and don't forget the cost of planting the exec. Even if we only lose 4-6 turns of research instead of the 8 that I estimate. How can a couple corporations possibly make up for those turns and then promise to shave off turns from out target end date.

guarantee: Each of the 7 corps cost money, even CivJewelers, which generates gold, costs a bit in the end. That means slower research. Sushi has the potential to make money, but it would take a long time and we'd need some happiness. It is actually the most painful to get started because the cost is extremely high because of the many seafood.
Mining has the potiential to shave a turn or two off a wonder build. But if the wonder will complete anyway in the next 22 turns. Then get get no benefit to our final score. We simply can't take the hit to research.

Whether it's 22 turns or 30 turns. Corporations are just too late to be useful.

What does the team think? Do I need to do any more explaining?
 
I was out of pocket for some day, thanks to a blob of dust in my processor fan.
Due to the massive variations made on my PC i need to reinstall from scratch (damn).:cry: well, not exactly need, but better do it, now that i'm quiet.
I'm up next and i probably can play in some 2-3 days, 4 at worst.
I hope that with the new year and so on you can wait 'til there.

New Year?
a wonderful 2009 to you all :newyear:


Engineering can NOT build the RC, it has already 2 Nat. wonders!!!
 
Double post...sorry.
 
Right now we have 41 cities.

That is 41 free specialists from Mercantalism. With Representation they will produce 6 research per turn each accespt Delhi which will run a priest for (2 gold + 3 research) 5 and Engineering which will run an engineer for 3.

That is 242 research just from switching to Mercantalism. Add that to any benefit from the corporations. Libraries et all will modify this amount too. I really don't think State Property is saving us that much.
 
Oh man... you two are making my head hurt :crazyeye: (but don't stop ;)) Can I just try to extract the crux from the detail?
1. WT advocates a ~22 turn finish at refrig, and Mesix a ~30 turn at plastics (or perhaps rocketry, given the 3GD). Further to this is ironing out tech questions like fascism/rail first.
2. WT wants to stay in SP, switching out in the final stage, while Mesix wants out now to spread corps.

Well, I don't use corps much at all (and it doesn't sound like WT does either). At this point, of course I'd just steamroll the AI. However, Mesix' numbers are fairly compelling, I have to admit. My feeling is that SP seems a less risky move, in that we seem to be able to estimate with more confidence the remainder of the game. So, I suppose my question to Mesix is: How confident are you that using your corp plan will speed up the end game considering the short timeframe, and by what amount do you think this will be? Or is 30 already "sped up"?

Q1 is simpler which tech path gives the higher w/t score?
 
Mesix points are interesting, but i'm afraid that even all those beakers from Merc. are not enough to compensate the SP no-distance-from-Palace.
In other words, we can have the Merc. beakers, but probably we must compensate with a lower research the increased maintenance costs.

But don't worry:

We own CR

We can try to revolt to anything we think will benefit us and if this is wrong, revolt again next turn.

If you think that some experiments are worth, i can do it, and report how beakers and gold will move.
If i'll face a disaster, or a bad situation, i can revolt again to the present configuration, or to an alternative we can decide.
1 turn can't be a disaster for our game.
 
To clarify, my 22 turn plan is to go to Plastics (skipping Art/rocketry). 30 turns includes those.

When I said "I don't know where to start". I meant there are so many errors in the corp calculations presented. Mesix's numbers are compelling, sweeta, only because they are so far off from reality. Now I was in the same boat. I did not know any better than anyone else. I was just guessing at corporation cost vs. value based on past experience... But now I've had a chance to look up the details.

26 sushi costs 30 gold (base 4 + 26)
Multiplier 1.2 (for monarch) = 36
Mulitipier of about 2 for city population = 72

Now you might see something like 43.35 on the city screen for corp cost. That's because in 3.13 BTS, they reduced the cost so that after you apply inflation, it's back to -72 gold/turn. -36 with a courthouse.

Now the benefits were also way off. It's not 1 gold, it's 4 gold and with WallSt + other it's +12 gold/turn.

Now my negative opinion on corporations was inflated by pre-3.13 data, and deity which adds a ton more to the cost...probably around 150gold/turn. So they aren't as bad as I thought, but still pointless with only 10 turns to try and use them after Wall St. is in.

Don't forget, we don't have Wall St. for 11 turns, and Delhi also doesn't have a courthouse (4 turns).

The benefit from Merc is probably not even as good as the extra trade route from Free Market and the Corporation -25% cost. SP is certainly better than 242 research/turn. It's probably more like 300-400 beakers. I agree with Blub. Even if the reserach loss is small, it is still a loss that will never be compensated for with a handful of corporations.
 
242 is raw research/gold from Mercantalism. as I stated in my previous post, it is modified by Libraries et al. In some cities (like 5th running a scientist) each specialist is worth almost 20 research per turn. In an undeveloped city it is worth at least 6. That 242 raw reserach from free specialists is probably more like 400+ after modifications are added in for research or financial buildings (some cities will benefit more from merchants with markets etc. and a little micromanagement on the first turn will be necessary to maximize).

We don't have to wait for Delhi to finish WS before we use the corps. If we switch civics on the first turn then we can found the two corps of interest on turn 1. Delhi having Sushi will be able to run more prophet specialists which means more production to finish WS faster and more GPP to get the GP for Rhodes. We can found Mining Inc in Parma and build five execs to spread to nearby cities that will build our hospitals and remaining wonders.

Cities that we plan to spread corps to can build courthouses (if they don't already have them) in the next few turns to prepare for the maintenance when the execs get there. Delhi can either wait for WS to finish, or rush one exec to put on a boat before WS finishes. If we get an exec to Ulundi it will be able to run additional scientists and also build a few execs to spread Sushi further to maximize the benefit.

Your criticism about needing to grow before seeing the benefit is inacurate. Getting the additional food allows population working tiles that sustain the city to be taken off workting tiles and moved to working specialists. That is an instant benefit.

To get 3 more great people (GP for Rhodes, GS for the last corp, and 2nd GE to rush 3GD) we need to run a targeted specialist economy in at least 3 cities. By spreading Sushi to these 3 key cities we can maximize our GPP.

Engineering: needs to run more engineers. Can build a Factory before finishing wonders.
Delhi: needs to run more prophets. Having 2 shrines helps this.
Ulundi: needs to run more scientists. Caste System will allow us to do this.
 
Here is what the cities are currently doing:

Engineering is running 1 engineer and 1 prophet. It should be changed. It can run up to 4 engineers. A factory (3 turns to build which will be regained later from production bonus) will allow us to run 6. When we get Industrialism, an Industrial Park will allow us to run 2 more and also give a free engineer. We need the food from Sushi to support the additional engineers.

Ulundi is running 5 specialists. Only 3 are scientists since that is the cap. After changing civics and spreading Sushi it will be running more than double the number of scientists that it does now.

Delhi is not running any specialists, but it can run up to 9 priests (6 from shrines and 3 from Angkor Wat). At current GPP from wonders it will pop a random great person in 15 turns. If we get more priests into the city there is a greater chance of getting the needed GP for Rhodes. Founding Sushi will allow us to run at least 4 priests immediately and each new population will become a priest as it grows. Priests produce 2 hammers so production will be faster in Delhi after Sushi is founded.
 
Without the corporations how do you propose that we get the 2 great people (since your plan will not get us to rocketry hense no GS needed) that we need to rush the 3GD and build the shrine in Rhodes?
 
WastinTime said:
Balth, I think Bibracte didn't revolt. It just hasn't ever come out of the first revolt yet.
Click to expand...
Well... oops. You are right, of course. The map sure changed a lot in six turns! :blush: :hammer2:

My head hurts from the latest discussion too. Will try it again and see what I can make of it... :p
 
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