SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

WT, is difficult to put everything in a PPP.
I thought combustion was a pre-requisite for refrig., but i was wrong.
Since we need both, i choose refr. for +1 naval mov.
Upgrades of the naval units are too expensive.

For the other key decisions, i made a list here and i'm sure to have correctly interpreted the answers.
If not, let me know, point by point.
Slavery was an option i didn't used, 'cause there was no point in whip our core cities, and scarce results in doing in former India.
Caste was a great choice, pity not have adopted it before.
Also: Dehli was building WS without forge, a waste.
Same 5th: pentagon without factory.
The list can be long, we need to improve.

You can also notice that i've built a fort on an icy oil, to have it ready when we'll have the tech (next turn).
That one wasn't planned, too

I made also a lot of resources trades with our Vassals, to give them the necessary strategic resources.

And i was right in my first post, i over-extended 1.5 turns.
It was decided to play 6 full turns. I already apologized for this.

If you think 4 turns are OK for this final rush, i agree if the other members approve.

Let me know and i update the first page.

 

[WastinTime]

Wall Street is 1 turn away, thanks to my forge

Also: Dehli was building WS without forge, a waste.
Same pentagon without factory.

Wall St. would be done already if not for the wasted hammers on the forge.

A factory in Engineering would have been even worse, meaning it takes longer for that to pay off (~16 turns to break even, where Delhi's forge pays for itself in ~10 turns) I agree these buildings should have been built earlier, but near the end of the game, there is just not enough return on the investment.

Now, had you used slavery or UnivSuff to rush or buy the forge/factory, that's a different story.

And how good is a factory without a power plant anyway?

 

[WastinTime]

As for FR, is it worth it? Do you want it for the 10%? 20ish turns with 10% saves 2 turnsish

This is a very common mistake when calculating FR bonus. It's not even close to 10%, especially in my normal style games that rely on the capital for most/all of the research. Remember, if the capital, for example, is already at +225% research, 230% is not a big jump. Ours goes from 431 beakers to 444.

That's effectively a 3% research boost (not 10%). Other cities will get a larger boost naturally.

 

[BLubmuz]

A forge costs 120, with a bonus for Dehli of 11gpt.
this would mean it will pays in 10 turns.
WS was 9 turns away, and it's almost done now with the forge on.

In GA the bonus is larger, since we have more base hammers.

Do not made the math for factory, sure we must started right after AL was in.
same in 5th and in other wonder-oriented cities.

 

[WastinTime]

A forge costs 120, with a bonus for Dehli of 11gpt.
this would mean it will pays in 10 turns.
WS was 9 turns away, and it's almost done now with the forge on.

Correct. The forge delayed WS 1 turn. It was due 9, but would have been done in 8 with the golden age (and no forge.)

I don't consider this a mistake. The forge will pay off eventually. It was a fine choice to build it, but you were just so proud of that forge like it did something for us and it has not...yet.

It's a good exercise to calculate when a building will pay off so you know when not to build them. It should be clear that factories are out.

 

[berserks01]

I guess I'm up.

I'll see if I can post a PPP later tonite.

 

[MacBalt]

Guys, we need to get some troops in Bibracte and Aachen. We have almost a 10% chance of revolt each turn in Bibracte and a significant risk in Aachen too. Will wonders count for us in a city that is in revolt?

 

[BLubmuz]

We own the wonders, revolt or not.
But there's a risk they flip, so better put some troops there.
It can be a good reson to switch to FR when our next GP will pop.
For culture, not for beakers.

A good number of units are arriving from our mainland, so better garrison our border cities would not be a problem.

Yeah Bers, you're UP!

WT said he'd like to play some 4 turns/TS with all the decisions we need to take.

If it's OK for you, let me know.

An idea for the Red Cross: we can stop build troops in our mainland, they will never see a fight.
I propose to build wealth there, then when we have some 2-3 turns to complete it, switch to US and rush-buy it. We can just mouse-over the rush-buy in the city screen, revolt when we'll have enough money, then go back to Repr. next turn.
We own also the Kremlin, to help with this.

WT, i PMed you, an answer, please!

 

[WastinTime]

Red cross: I'm not seeing a problem. With proper MM, it will be done in 8 turns.
I do like the backup suggestions of slavery, or buying it if we need to though.

The 8 turn goal is right in line with the diplo vote (I think). But let's try to get conquest that turn too.

 

[berserks01]

I'm ok with playing 4 turns. Seems to be long turns anyway. I think I have time later today to come up with a PPP, otherwise it'll be tomorrow.

 

[BLubmuz]

Red cross: I'm not seeing a problem. With proper MM, it will be done in 8 turns.
I do like the backup suggestions of slavery, or buying it if we need to though.

The 8 turn goal is right in line with the diplo vote (I think). But let's try to get conquest that turn too.

I've tried to see if there's some way to increase production, and i didn't see it.
Maybe i was wrong.
I don't think slavery can work, better use US. Money wouldn't be a problem after WS and with all those cities falling in our hands.

Also, our research can be fine-tuned to reach rocketry 1 turn before RC completes, so we can complete in the same turn RC and Aluminum Co.

And, sure in 8 turns conquest is possible.

What if a Diplo vote comes before 8 turns?

In any case, i recommend to build all the corps right now, no reason to wait more.
We got a GM in Dehli, and he can build Sushi there.
The other GPs are in our mainland, better avoid cities in the Northern coast close to Rome.

 

[berserks01]

Marbles: wealth, can through out a GPerson (54% GM) in 6-7 turns if we turn on more specialists
Engineering: wealth, throughs out a GPerson (85% GE) in 4 turns
Nongoma: Red Cross in 8 turns (switch from working FP to Windmill desert hill)
Leira: National Park in 2 turns, then wealth

Delhi: Wall Street in 1 turn, GPerson (43% GP) in 2 turns if we turn on 1 more priest
Bombay: GPerson (62% GP) in 6 turns

Nuremburg: turn on more artists to fight culture
Tolosa: fire artist, hire engineer for hammers
Pisa: kill library, build troops

I think we should switch to Universal Suffrage and start buying more troops. Our setback now is fresh troops for war without having to wait a turn or 2 to heal.

All other cities in mainland switch to build wealth, and to work hammer tiles (hammer == gold), and to if we must turn on specialists turn on merchants instead (more gold than engineers) or scientists to hopefully speed up research some.
All other cities on war island further from the war switch to build cavalries, they get to the front much faster than infantries.
Perc is weak military wise, cavs should be enough to take him, infantries should be use to defend instead.
The tile 2E1N of Florence should be where our stack to take Rhodes form. The canons in Ulm and Pisa and Bombay can head Aachen to help with the resistance.
The infantry in Pataliputra can head over to Aachen so the cavs there can go to the stack for Rhodes.
1 of the infrantry in Bombay can join the infantry in Vienna.
The cavs in Agra can head over to the stack for Phodes as well.
The 2 infantries in Versailles should head over to Nuremburg.
The airships in Veranasi and Lahore can rebase to Florence to bombard Rhodes defense.
That should take care of Rhodes I think.

The stack on it's way from the mainland should land next to Cumae. It'll help hold it as well as take out Satricum if Rome still refuse to capitulate.
Rome should fall in 2 turns with those 2 stacks and Cumae should fall next turn.
Rebase the airships to Rome immediately so we can start the bombardment of Antium. Thebes should also be within bombard range from there.
Then send the fresh and lightly damaged troops to Antium immediately while the rest can heal and defend Rome and Cumae.
A couple of turns of healing should enable them to start on Perc.

Hopefully, Rome will capitulate by the end of my 4 turns so next player can concentrate on Perc.

I think that's it. What do y'all think?

 

[WastinTime]

Sounding good.

Go for the Delhi GP in 2 turns, so it can get to rhodes in time.
How many units are going to Rhodes?

Declaring on Perc: Are we just going to gamble that he won't refuse to talk? Everyone else has agreed to talk very quickly, so he should. I thought it used to be 10 turn minimum.

I don't know that we have any money for USuff/buying troops. We'll take a huge loss in beakers by turning off Represent. We can't afford any more turns generating gold.

If we get a vote option in 4 turns, we choose the +1 trade routes, yes?

 

[WastinTime]

How about this idea:

Don't finish combustion (we lose whale then). Switch to Artil now. We can get Combustion free from Rome in 4 turns (probably...if not, we get combustion later).

 

[BLubmuz]

Pericles has Rifling and i've seen remarkable stacks in his cities.
So, don't think it will be a parkwalk and don't hope too much in cavalries.

We have a lot of highly promoted cavalries, anyway.

Be care in let our "indian" cities well defended, at least 2 defenders in Dehli, 1 of them infantry.

I think the troops on ferries can go West for Rhodes and to help avoid revolts, we have enough in place for Rome (the nation).

Revolt to US probably slows too much our research, good points on running merchants and working hammer-rich tiles.

Revolt to US is an option we'll use for 1 turn, only to complete Red Cross (thanks to my misclick, damn).

WT's idea about combustion is good: let's switch to artillery, if we have money we can also upgrade a couple cannons, then back to combustion, then Rockets.
IIRC AC can research combustion, he doesn't have it yet, and surely he don't in time for a peace deal with all those losses.

For the rest, it seems you have catched it.
Found all the possible Corps right now: i don't wanna see some AI pop a GP and steal us a Corp we can have founded 15 turns ago. Found them where the GPs are, but move East the ones in the ferry city (i'm a bit paranoic, but our core cities are defended by warriors, pikes, chariots and so on).

Misclicks are forbidden

 

[berserks01]

Go for the Delhi GP in 2 turns, so it can get to rhodes in time.
How many units are going to Rhodes?

I estimate ~8-10 cavs and a couple of infantries for defense. The goal is to get Rhodes and then hold it. That stack won't be trying to take those cities nearby. The main attack will come from the east where the bulk of our army is.

Declaring on Perc: Are we just going to gamble that he won't refuse to talk? Everyone else has agreed to talk very quickly, so he should. I thought it used to be 10 turn minimum.

There are no minimum. As soon as he's willing to talk we'll keep dialing him up every turn til he's willing to capitulate. But I'm pretty sure that the more cities we take/raze the faster he'll capitulate. That's why I said our main setback for conquest is fresh troops.

I don't know that we have any money for USuff/buying troops. We'll take a huge loss in beakers by turning off Represent. We can't afford any more turns generating gold.

I don't plan on wasting turns generating gold. I'm planning on generating gold while still pushing as much research as we can. How about this? I'll switch to US with the current turn and do all the MM and see how we do research-wise and gold generation-wise by next turn and post an update. Then we can decide what to do before I proceed with my remaining 3 turns.

If we get a vote option in 4 turns, we choose the +1 trade routes, yes?

Yes. I'll make a note of this.

How about this idea:

Don't finish combustion (we lose whale then). Switch to Artil now. We can get Combustion free from Rome in 4 turns (probably...if not, we get combustion later).

Sounds good.

 

[berserks01]

Pericles has Rifling and i've seen remarkable stacks in his cities.
So, don't think it will be a parkwalk and don't hope too much in cavalries.

We have a lot of highly promoted cavalries, anyway.

I can use the airships to recon and see what we're up against in Rhodes before deciding on whether to attack or wait for more troops. I was thinking the cavs will have enough movement to get there and (hopefull) take it the turn war is declared while the infantries move in the next turn to defend. I'm also hoping that Boudica and HRE will keep the rest of his troops at bay so he don't throw a serious stack at us. But from what I'm seen so far, he's only got grens as his strongest offensive unit and muskets as his strongest defense.

Be care in let our "indian" cities well defended, at least 2 defenders in Dehli, 1 of them infantry.

Sure, but only in the cities closer to Perc. I don't want to waste good defense on the southern cities away from the war.

I think the troops on ferries can go West for Rhodes and to help avoid revolts, we have enough in place for Rome (the nation).

I'll see about it, but I think it might take too long for them to ferry the troops there. I was planning on having the main attack going in from the east. I'm hoping that with Rome so weak after our war Perc will see it as an opportunity to throw his stacks there instead of against the well-rested Celts and HRE.

Revolt to US probably slows too much our research, good points on running merchants and working hammer-rich tiles.

We'll find out more by next turn how much of an effect US is.

Found all the possible Corps right now: i don't wanna see some AI pop a GP and steal us a Corp we can have founded 15 turns ago. Found them where the GPs are, but move East the ones in the ferry city (i'm a bit paranoic, but our core cities are defended by warriors, pikes, chariots and so on).

Ok. I forgot about this in my PPP.

Misclicks are forbidden

Noted

I'll wait for some more feedback before doing anything. With possibly only 2 TS left, we can afford to wait a little.

 

[BLubmuz]

I estimate ~8-10 cavs and a couple of infantries for defense. The goal is to get Rhodes and then hold it. That stack won't be trying to take those cities nearby. The main attack will come from the east where the bulk of our army is.

Right, but keep defended our southern cities, and garrisoned the ones with high chance of revolt.
IIRC a couple of them are on the Greek borders, so one more reason to garrison them.
Keep also the "indian" cities well defended, Dehli, Versailles and the Christian holy are close to Greek borders.


I don't plan on wasting turns generating gold. I'm planning on generating gold while still pushing as much research as we can. How about this? I'll switch to US with the current turn and do all the MM and see how we do research-wise and gold generation-wise by next turn and post an update. Then we can decide what to do before I proceed with my remaining 3 turns.

If you revolt to US and don't rush-buy units, it's wasted research.
Gather gold, mouse over in the cities producing units, then revolt for 1 turn.
Then back to Representation, rinse and repeat if necessary.

So, no need to see what happens and break your TS, just follow this suggestion wisely.
Sure now we have no money for anything, nor we need units right now, you got some 3 full galleons to unload and more troops arriving, plus a GG to upgrade a mace.

Remember that close to the end we'll need money ro rush-buy the RC.

 

[WastinTime]

Great point about corps. I forgot the AI has some of the tech needed to pop corps now.

IIRC, AC has combustion already and will trade it.

Agree, that a switch to US now is a bad idea since we have little cash to spend. Maybe after we capture a few rome cities. Don't forget to check the trade screen for some possible cash for tech trades.

 

[berserks01]

Agree, that a switch to US now is a bad idea since we have little cash to spend. Maybe after we capture a few rome cities. Don't forget to check the trade screen for some possible cash for tech trades.

Ok, I'll concede the switch to US and won't do it my TS.

Not only cash/tech trades, but also cash/tech demands. They're our vassals now, so demands are allowed. They just won't like it