SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[Misotu]

I bet the good teams manage the Civil Service slingshot easily, so why shouldn't we be able to do it? There are only a handful of genuinely important decisions to be made to get there.

We are one of the good teams

Probably.

 

[Misotu]

What's your tech path Misotu and what are you building in Yaso? Are you founding a second city or just sticking with Yaso? I just can't understand how you're finishing so early.

I didn't build a second city because I just wanted to assess the net effect of fishing/no fishing so I played a very simple game, copying our builds and initial tech path but not moving the units or founding a further city (although I did build the settler).

Tech path is fish, writing, myst, med, priest, CoL, maths. If you go for Henge, you don't need masonry, so that may be where you are racking up a few extra turns.

Builds are: finish settler, workboat, library, Henge, Oracle. I do only just enough hammers to finish the Oracle on the turn I discover maths even if this means putting a worker on a sea tile for 1food/2 gold* rather than on our copper mine!

* Edited to add that I'd only do this if it actually made a difference to research turns/tech. Otherwise, obviously, I'd work the mine

 

[Misotu]

The second city will cut the beaker rate because there will be no trade route (no roads and no sailing).

I read this & thought yeah, that's right. And then I remembered seeing my cities connected up pre-roads and pre-sailing. So I just went and checked and that's right - I have built another city up the coast from my HQ. As soon as the cultural boundaries join, they start to trade without the benefit of roads or sailing. And since we are cultural, as long as our second city's BFC will meet the edge of the capital's cultural area, we will be trading within just a few turns. I think they both have to be on the coast for this to work.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Tech path is fish, writing, myst, med, priest, CoL, maths. If you go for Henge, you don't need masonry, so that may be where you are racking up a few extra turns.

Builds are: finish settler, workboat, library, Henge, Oracle. I do only just enough hammers to finish the Oracle on the turn I discover maths even if this means putting a worker on a sea tile for 1food/2 gold* rather than on our copper mine!

* Edited to add that I'd only do this if it actually made a difference to research turns/tech. Otherwise, obviously, I'd work the mine

Thanks for this Misotu. I'll have (yet) another try at the test game.

 

[AgedOne]

Really excellent to see all this planning, testing and discussion, everyone !
By the way, congratulations are due: We are currently the 'chattiest' team, having sneaked into the lead on posts, just ahead of Smurkz.

I predict we will make our slingshot, and won't lose any sleep over it (well, no more than dedicated Civ-players normally lose). I really like the way the max-commerce plan is coming together. Writing plus an early chopped library feels like the right way.

I would like to think that we can settle a second city, and it might even be worth chopping the settler to get that out quicker. Without the wheel, our workers are often looking for something to do, and I chopped far too many things in my trial games, just to keep them active, but I think we could target our chopping to (a) Library (b) Settler and then save the trees for chopping wonders.

[Aside note: We did put quite a bit of this kind of effort into the start of the last SGOTM, when we were trying to ensure we got Pyramids and Gt Lib in our OCC ahead of the deity AI. It's just that we didn't do much more of it after that, and perhaps that's clouding our memories]

 

[erikthecelt]

Lots of terrific input everyone. I just ran a test where I had both Henge and Oracle by turn 75.
I finished the settler before having writing in so I built a second worker after the WB.
I built the second city. It built a second WB for the fish and then a library.
I chop rushed the library in YAS then I built the Henge slowly, focusing on maxing the commerce, chopping and mining.
After the library was ready in the second city, I ran two scientists there starving the city.
After Yas reached size 5 I ran 2 scientists there with MM to time Oracle to complete in the same turn as CoL.
Tech was Fish,Writing,Myst,Med,Priest,Math,CoL.
A scientist was born and used for an academy.

Note: There is plains hill in the real game that is not present in the test game. This allowed the worker to finish on the same turn as AH was completed and so the real game already has a number of hammers in the settler. This will probably have thrown off your test games.

Comment please

I don't care about the post count, LC can blow us away in a day but it's nice to have so much quality input.

Aged-one - I think the earlier turns are easier to micro plan, after we get the CS sling it will be a lot harder to produce such detailed planing but we are off to a great start.

Misotu - thanks for picking up on Masonry not being needed, must have been thinking about the Mids Also, the trade route looks like it needs a clear coastline, in my test game I didn't get any trade but I starved it into helping

I'll play the real turn set tomorrow. I'll probably stop at the completion of the library unless something happens.

@Sam - could you post the roster in post 2 or 3 so it's easy to find

 

[Harbourboy]

This has been the highest quality discussion that I can remember from the Geezers. It does look like we have done all the analysis we could possibly do, short of rebuilding a new test game that more closely matches what we now know about the real one.

Look forward to what you manage to get through, erikthecelt.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Lots of terrific input everyone. I just ran a test where I had both Henge and Oracle by turn 75.

Much better than my last attempt where I got the slingshot in T77 but didn't build Henge fast enough. Since there will be at least two, if not three players, involved in achieving the slingshot I think we need some really detailed notes of the action needed to get the slingshot. It probably needs to include things like tech order, build order and which tiles to work and when.

I finished the settler before having writing in so I built a second worker after the WB.
I built the second city. It built a second WB for the fish and then a library.
I chop rushed the library in YAS then I built the Henge slowly, focusing on maxing the commerce, chopping and mining.
After the library was ready in the second city, I ran two scientists there starving the city.

The second city grew that fast. Is this really likely to be possible in the real game? Btw have we decided on the location of the second city yet?

Misotu - thanks for picking up on Masonry not being needed, must have been thinking about the Mids

We were talking about the GW earlier so I would imagine that's why it was included. The CS slingshot is certainly important but I do wonder if the usefulness of the GW is being overlooked?

@Sam - could you post the roster in post 2 or 3 so it's easy to find

So I have to find the roster first? Done.

 

[erikthecelt]

The second city grew that fast. Is this really likely to be possible in the real game? Btw have we decided on the location of the second city yet?

Working the pigs or cows should do it. In the test game I did not even do that, I let it slow build the WB and Lib (chopped) using 2F1H tiles.

 

[markh]

I am off two days and I have to read 2.5 pages. Excellent discussion.

Unfortunately I have to go in 30 minutes for much more of although I had a lot already, so I cannot really take part in the discussion and give any disturbing comments. What I read makes me confident that we are about to make a great start. Go Erik.

 

[erikthecelt]

Here is the world as we know it.



The settler is ready to move, we need to pick a city site. 1 N of the cows has a blue circle (for what that is worth).

Here is the trun set so far:

T26 – 3000 BC
Start copper mine, switch to fishing
IBT – Warrior kills panther

T27 – T29
Explore

T30 – 2840 BC
Meet Shaka (of all the lousy, no good, rotten, miserable AI – on the plus side we have a good reason for an early rush )
Fishing --- Writing

T32 – 2760 BC
Judaism has been founded in a distant land


Let the great second city debate begin.

I have started a warrior, with Shaka so close I'm thinking a couple of warriors instead of a worker might be a safer investment. OTH we might want to go for The Wheel and have ourselves an early axe rush

 

[Misotu]

I would like to think that we can settle a second city, and it might even be worth chopping the settler to get that out quicker. Without the wheel, our workers are often looking for something to do, and I chopped far too many things in my trial games, just to keep them active, but I think we could target our chopping to (a) Library (b) Settler and then save the trees for chopping wonders.

Agree about chopping the settler - in fact we need to do a chop to start building the work boat immediately on the turn that fishing is researched. On keeping the worker busy, I think pre-chopping and pre-mining forested hills is the way to go, thus keeping the forests for later, as you suggest. I usually work this by annotating the map. The system I use is C indicates forest will chop in 1 turn, M indicates that the mine will be built on a forested hill in one turn. If I need to move a worker to a resource 2 spaces away, I might do one turn of farming or one turn of a road and then move the worker onto the resource on the following turn. In this case R indicates I've started a road, F indicates I've started a farm and so on. Do you guys already have an agreed system for this sort of communication?

I finished the settler before having writing in so I built a second worker after the WB.

That's very different to my game - I couldn't have fitted in an extra build between the workboat and the library Did you finish the workboat way before writing because you chopped really hard, or was it because you took a bit longer to research writing than I did in my test game I wonder?

After the library was ready in the second city, I ran two scientists there starving the city.

This sounds like a *very* good plan

Also, the trade route looks like it needs a clear coastline

Oh yes, it does. I didn't make that clear, sorry I think we can get this with our proposed second city sites in the real game?

Anyway, after reading your comments about the second city and the extra build etc I have gone back and played what I hope is the closest to a real run that I can get on the test map. I didn't scout, so I had no gold reserves and I built the second city. I got turn 72, which seems all right. Probably. I will post turn by turn notes for you to look at and comment on, I'll try to type it up now & post as soon as.

 

[erikthecelt]

Did you finish the workboat way before writing because you chopped really hard, or was it because you took a bit longer to research writing than I did in my test game I wonder?

I worked the gold mine every turn - I chopped the WB and switched from the copper to the clams for the extra commerce. I did no pre-chops just chop, then mine (if on a hill) then move.

 

[Misotu]

OK, here is the turn-by-turn guide to my last test game. I'm sure it could be improved, so fire away


Turn 27: Worker1 starts copper mine, start to research fishing. Settler is building.
Turn 30: Mine completes BUT city works gold & cows - governor will try to switch away from gold so manually adjust.
Turn 31: Fishing completes, writing starts. Move worker1 to forest/river tile by capital (good chance of forest growing back again so first choice). Second warrior is waiting to escort settler.
Turn 32: Worker1 starts to chop.
Turn 34: Forest chopped.
Turn 35: Worker1 moves to forest/river/hill square.
Turn 36: Worker1 chops.
Turn 37: Settler built and moves off towards military escort & chosen site. Work boat started. STOP WORKER before ending turn - we don't want the forest next turn.
Turn 38: Worker1 mines for 1 turn. STOP WORKER before ending turn, we do want the forest next turn .
Turn 39: Worker1 chops forest.
Turn 40: Work boat builds and works clam. Writing researched, Mysticism started. Library started. City works clam, gold and cow, NOT copper. Worker moves to forest/hill/river square.
Turn 41: Worker 1 starts chop. Second city founded, starts to build worker2. Research rate drops to 80%. Note to self: We are producing +1 at 80%, perhaps later in the slingshot process we can use this to boost research at a critical point.
Turn 43: Forest chopped.
Turn 44: Mysticism researched, Meditation started. Library builds, Henge starts.Worker moves to nearest forest square in second city big fat cross (remember, borders are about to expand).
Turn 46: Second city borders expand. Cities start to trade. Increase research rate to 90%.
Turn 45: Capital grows to size 4. First scientist specialist. Continue to work clam/cows/gold.
Turn 48: Meditation researched. Priesthood started.
Turn 49: Worker1 chops forest at second city.
Turn 50: Worker2 built, starts pasturing horse (or cows, or whatever). City2 starts library. Worker1 moves back to nearest forest square at capital.
Turn 51: Priesthood researched. Maths started.
Turn 53: Horse/whatever pastured at city2. Make sure governor switches.
Turn 54: Worker2 moves to best choice of forest square at city2. Worker1 chops forest in capital.
Turn 55: Worker2 starts chopping. Worker1 moves to next best choice of forest square. Capital grows to size 5. Second scientist specialist. Continue to work clam/cows/gold.
Turn 56: Worker1 starts to chop.
Turn 57: Worker2 completes chop.
Turn 58: Worker2 moves to pig (or whatever is the next best resource food-wise). Worker1 finishes chop.
Turn 59: City2 builds library, starts workboat or whatever. Worker1 moves to new forest square.
Turn 60: Henge completes, Oracle starts. City2 grows to size 2, 1 pop transferred to science specialist but city not starving. Worker1 starts to chop.
Turn 62: Maths done, Code of Laws starts. Worker2 finishes pasturing pig or whatever and city2 is growing like the clappers. Worker1 finishes chop.
Turn 63: Worker1 moves to new forest. Worker2 does something useful
Turn 64: Worker1 starts to chop.
Turn 65: Great Scientist born, academy founded.
Turn 66: City2 now has loads of food stocks so run second scientist and starve city. Research now so jolly brilliant that we move from clams to copper in the capital as we need that Oracle! Worker1 completes chop.
Turn 67: Worker1 moves to a new forest.
Turn 68: Worker1 starts chop.
Turn 69: BEFORE ENDING TURN, STOP WORKER1 FROM CHOPPING!!
Turn 70: Worker1 does nothing. Or starts building a mine, depending on the square but in either case all worker1 actions must be cancelled before the end of the turn or we will be in deep trouble
Turn 71: Worker1 finishes the chop.
Turn 72: Code of Laws is done, probably start Masonry with an eye on the Mids. Confucianism is founded, the Oracle is built, Civil Service is discovered for free, Bureaucracy (and maybe one other civic of our choice) is adopted, we adjust all cities to avoid the pointless loss of thousands of lives and there is General Rejoicing All Round. The Geezers appoint someone to buy The Third Round of Beer.

I ended up with about 5 gold in the bank and could have run 100% research for 2 turns towards the end, but in the test game it wouldn't have made any difference to the date. In the real game, it might be different so we should at least check this.

I try to choose forests in a way that (I think) gives the greatest chance that they will grow back, or by clearing hills (esp on rivers) where we will want early mines. I don't know whether there is any secret to chopping in order to get the greatest chance of new growth, apart from the obvious not devastating complete areas?

Anyway, there it is. Turn 72. The best I've seen the AI do in the test game is turn 74, but in the real game they are researching faster (Hinduism came up 2 turns earlier) and then we may of course be up against a load of industrious civs. Look away now if you don't like

I am absolutely not going to point out that, if we were to research Code of Laws before maths then, with heavy pre-chopping and a somewhat different game plan, we could build the Oracle on turn 65 or so. Which, totally coincidentally, is when the Great Scientist appears and can :shudder: bulb maths. I'm not going to mention this because, obviously, we wouldn't sacrifice a *very* early academy for bureaucracy, not even if we could get another Great Scientist really rather quickly in city2 if we put our minds to it and get a *reasonably* early academy. The reason why I am not going to mention this is because only a craven coward with no sense of fun would reject the opportunity of playing the Grand Gamble in favour of an Almost Sure Thing.

So that's why I am totally silent on the subject

 

[Misotu]

Oh sorry, I didn't see your posts showing you'd already started playing the turns before I posted all this. Your post saying you would play the turns tomorrow was showing up as 20 September here - so I thought you'd be playing on the 21st. I didn't notice that it was timed at 1.30 am, I suppose that might have been a bit of a clue

 

[Harbourboy]

Shaka absolutely has to go. Non-aggressive victories like Culture are impossible with him around. How does this tie up with our Oracle objectives? Do we hoe into Shaka once Oracle is done?

 

[AgedOne]

Let the great second city debate begin.

Fascinating! Shaka (on our land, I assume). I would agree with fitting Wheel into our plans soon in order to hook the copper and allow us to annoy him with axemen. We don't want to miss our slingshot or wonders though.

Second city. We don't have IW yet, so the northern site by the cattle & clams that would have been so good will instead be covered in jungle. The second site that interests me is the blue circle by the pigs. However, does this fail to connect to the capital for lack of a coastline under our control? Or does the uncontrolled eastern tip allow trade? If it does, then I'm in favour of the pigs for city 2.

Do you guys already have an agreed system for this sort of communication?

I think we may have now!
We have passed on this kind of info in our turnset posts.
I'm beginning to see what a micro-manager you are. It's good to have some of the team with that kind of a mind. For my own part, I really have to be in the right mood to concentrate on details that deeply. (Probably stems from an inherent laziness...)

OK, here is the turn-by-turn guide to my last test game.

. . . . . .

So that's why I am totally silent on the subject

As if!

I'm beginning to feel very confident of reaching a position where we have Oracle and run bureaucracy. I see no reason to deviate from this plan, at least until we find out something that affects it (like Shaka DoW?)

 

[Misotu]

Yeah. My name is Misotu and I am a Micro-Manager.

I'm getting treatment, don't worry.

Shaka will have to go, no question. But I'm not sure we need to worry immediately do we? I'm in favour of sticking to the plan and then looking to turn him over.

I think only the cows can be made to trade from what I can see of the map. Regardless, I would prefer to go for the cow site, because of the 2 food resources and 3 forests, which gives us early hammers for the library, then food for 2 quick scientists (just for the early bureaucracy objective, I know the jungle is horrible). In which case, I'd probably argue that we should build a work boat, not a warrior, in the capital, to send to the clams at the second city site. The second worker, built in the second city, can pasture the cow and chop the library.

After we make, or miss, the Oracle, we can research wheel. Most importantly though, this is a bit of a crisis so I guess we're delaying playing on for a little bit?

Edited to add: @Erikthecelt I thought because you said you were substituting warrior for worker we had already built one work boat, but if we haven't, then I would still want to build the first work boat, rather than a warrior, to work the clams at the capital ... and possibly even consider chopping a second work boat for the second city.

 

[erikthecelt]

Edited to add: @Erikthecelt I thought because you said you were substituting warrior for worker we had already built one work boat, but if we haven't, then I would still want to build the first work boat, rather than a warrior, to work the clams at the capital ... and possibly even consider chopping a second work boat for the second city.

The warrior is a place holder BUT the capital is empty and Shaka can see that. One warrior is too far away from the city to help as an escort.

PS - I am liking the math bulb - very tempting.

 

[Harbourboy]

Shaka must go, but it's just a question of when. Plus I don't want us to do what we have done in the past and try and do all things at once, and do none of them properly.