SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[Sam_Yeager]

@Sam_Yeager: How disappointing to find out that I am merely recommending the "standard" approach :laughter: I've never bulbed maths - in fact, never thought of it until I was getting desperate in my test games.

And there was me thinking I'd come up with an original idea

I should point out that it was from a forum where many players are very experienced. "Standard" approach for them doesn't necessarily mean everyone does that. Btw the fact that I frequent such a forum doesn't mean I'm in the same league as them.

The outline plan you've posted sounds good. However I suspect I'm not the only person that wonders if we can achieve the micromanagement required. Perhaps it would be a good idea for HB to pause partway through his set for you to refine the actions he needs to take? I have to say that following this sort of detailed plan does not fill me with joy but I realise that it is necessary at times.

 

[Misotu]

Yeah, I know micro-management isn't everyone's cup of tea. Frankly, if we can just do it for these first few dozen turns, I don't think it will be necessary to get so detailed again. I like this sort of thing up to a point, but even I start to get a bit if it goes on too long ...

I think it would be fine to pause the turns for consideration when there's a new micro decision available if HB wants to - it's probably the easiest way to do it - or we could re-order the roster so that people who like that style of play take the next few rounds?

One thing I *can* tell you - later in the game, if there's critical military action going on, SWAP ME OUT. I get horrible results, losing 4 or more battles in a row on better than 80% probability routinely. And anyway, I'm rubbish at war - just look at my domination/conquest results vs my peaceful victory results

 

[Harbourboy]

I don't mind micro-management, I'm more concerned that I will mis-interpret the requirements and miss a crucial step. I don't mind pausing throughout turn. And I don't mind changing the roster. I'm flexible to whatever the team needs.

 

[The-Hawk]

I like the WB in pig city, it's for our capital so we can work, work, work. It makes it possible to work all of the commerce tiles and grow so we build the Oracle and whip it out if we have to. It was started before Library was available.

Right, I saw we had a WB for the clams, but I forgot we could also work fish to the SE. Nothing at all wrong with your thought process. However, as Misotu mentioned, now that we can build a lib, I think we should slip the WB back in the queue. It really all depends on which will progress the slingshot the best.

(Panthers don't move 2 squares in jungle, do they? In which case, if we separate worker/warrior immediately, move warrior to jungle due east, does that not break FoW and allow worker to move separately and safely 2 squares towards Hari via SE plains square? Only remaining FoW would be one square of fresh water lake I think?)

I was thinking the same thing last night. However, now that I took another look, I think moving the warrior NE instead of E will open almost all the fog on the landmass (other than over the lake, but panthers don't swim ). If we move the warrior 1st and it is clear, then the worker is free to go. If we see a panther, then the worker can either move to avoid it, or move to the warrior for protection. I don't know if panthers move 2 in jungle, but it won't matter because all tiles within 2 will be busted...

And I don't mind changing the roster. I'm flexible to whatever the team needs.

Given Misotu has run through several test scenarios, I think we should let her play the next turnset. As we all know, things don't always go exactly to plan, she will be in the best position to adapt her plan on the fly.

Besides, HB, if you take the next set, then you can be the one who faces an army of 50 axemen from Shaka!

Will we have enough power to see off barabarians, regardless of what Shaka does?

This should not be a problem. We have no FOW from any direction but west. Once Harikrishna build its Lib and WB, we can spin up an extra warrior or two. Along with the one we have, they can fogbust the land to our west.

A bigger problem will be barb galleys. One reason I hate coastal cities using ocean resources is it forces you to build triremes or galleys. Waste of hammers, but unavoidable.

How disappointing to find out that I am merely recommending the "standard" approach :laughter: I've never bulbed maths - in fact, never thought of it until I was getting desperate in my test games.

I have to say, I can't see bulbing math as a "standard" approach either. Seems like a waste of a GP, the opportunity cost is huge. Especially if the next GP you pop is a prophet because of Oracle (your academy is delayed for a long time). However, that's the difference with HOF, if you miss the slingshot, you simply quit and start a new game. If the consensus is to bulb math, I'll go along. I suppose the sooner we get CS, the sooner we can start building axemen for the peacemonger off to our west.

 

[erikthecelt]

Panthers do move 2 squares in jungle. It's more important to keep the worker safe then head back to scout Shaka. Shaka will make a peace deal with us as he's already willing to talk. Just be patient and unafraid.

Galleys will probably be essential in this game. We are going to have to settle the marble island and probably we'll need to cross more bodies of water in order to collect our rightful share of the world's wonders.

We are currently running 80% science, which gives +1 economy and we have 5 gold in the treasury as a result. Unfortunately, the cities will not trade from border expansion any time soon. However, we can manually keep adjusting to 90% - for example, if we do this now it takes 1 turn off the time for Myst.

Sorry - I should have made note of this. I was letting the gold accumulate so that we can best make use of it during the MM after the Library has been built. To really get the most, we need to adjust base commerce to multiples of 4 to get the 25% bonus. Adjusting to 90% is not as efficient. (Now that's real micro management - I can only do that kind of thing for a few turns to eek out a critical turn).

I think it's at least two turn sets to complete this phase. One for myst, med, priest and one for CoL. Making that all one turn is a lot to ask from one player.

One last thought. The library in Hariville is of no use until we have a pop of at least 3. The WB is useful right away. Please consider that during the testing. I think it's better to get the extra commerce/growth in Yas than to worry about getting a Lib that we can't use.

 

[markh]

Nice work. I am definitely for trying the CS sling. I did not have a look at the save, yet, so I cannot comment much. Keep it up. Maybe I find the time later on to get a peek at the save.

 

[Harbourboy]

faces an army of 50 axemen from Shaka!

I'm more worried about those damned Impis. They can appear out of nowhere.

I'm fine with Misotu taking the next turn. That's how great teams play to their strengths.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I'm fine with Misotu taking the next turn. That's how great teams play to their strengths.

So, is Misotu taking the next turnset then?

 

[Misotu]

I'm happy to play the next turnset if that's ok with you. I ought to be able to play these turns in my sleep by now assuming nothing untoward occurs

@erikthecelt Hear what you say on the workboat vs library question, but actually we can do both. The original plan said that we start Henge after the library builds in Yas. Henge has already gone (which is a bit worrying, to say the least, in terms of how fast the Oracle might go) so we need to build something else in the capital. This could be a workboat, while second city builds a library. Depending on what happens, we have the option to continue with the workboat in the second city after the library builds, and use it for exploration?

We will be able to use the library in the second city very quickly, esp once the pigs come on-line.

If I am playing the next turnset, then I think my objectives are:

1. Bust FoW with warrior moving NE and get worker to pigs ASAP while being absolutely safe.
2. Chop the forest in the capital for the library
3. Move the workboat to the clams and work the clams rather than copper
4. Research mysticism next
5. Change production in the second city from workboat to library

Any additions, subtractions, changes or comments? What about the roving warrior - once the worker is sorted, do we want to keep him fog-busting, move him back towards Shaka and fortify somewhere or what? How soon do I try to get peace with Shaka - do I leave it a few turns (how many?) or just keep trying every turn (will that annoy him more?)

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I'm happy to play the next turnset if that's ok with you. I ought to be able to play these turns in my sleep by now assuming nothing untoward occurs

Certainly fine with me.

Any additions, subtractions, changes or comments? What about the roving warrior - once the worker is sorted, do we want to keep him fog-busting, move him back towards Shaka and fortify somewhere or what? How soon do I try to get peace with Shaka - do I leave it a few turns (how many?) or just keep trying every turn (will that annoy him more?)

I would be inclined to move the warrior back towards the one tile bridge that leads to Shaka and fortify the warrior there. I believe that you can try for peace each turn without Shaka being any more upset.

 

[erikthecelt]

Start a barracks in the capital if there is time after the WB. Pig city should be growing to size 3 then working 2 scientists, so the WB will not get built for a long time unless there is overflow from the library chop.

The plan is good and Sam is correct about Shaka and the warrior.

 

[Misotu]

Unless there are any objections, I'll aim to play the turnset Monday, probably around midday UK time. I'm posting this at 6pm UK time on Sunday. Hopefully this will give everyone a chance to post any comments on the plan that they want to post before I play.

Obviously if anything crops up or there are more decisions to be made, I'll stop and come back but could someone just confirm how many turns are in the next turnset please? I don't want to to over-run my quota

 

[The-Hawk]

Plan looks good... not sure how many turns we are playing. Usually we play longer turnsets in the beginning, then shorten later in the game (I think from 20 to 10).

 

[erikthecelt]

Around 20 turns but you can stop any time if you want to consult. You can also work to complete something. Don't stop when in anarchy if you make a civic change, play until you are out. Enjoy!

 

[Harbourboy]

Sounds good, Misotu. I look forward to hearing what other surprises come our way!

 

[Misotu]

Peacenik Misotu reporting in on turns 40-59

All has gone as well as could be expected - no sign of Shaka's screaming hordes yet but no peace either Quick synopsis:

40: Split up worker and warrior, break FoW, all clear, worker hotfoots it towards Hari.
42: Library built in capital. Beakers now 21/turn.
44: Mysticism discovered
45: Shaka: No peace until the last of us is ground into the dust. Charming.
46: Hari grows to size 2, Yas grows to size 5, first scientist in Yas.
47: Pig now pastured.
48: Meditation discovered, work boat built in Yas and heads for the fish. Start barracks in capital.
49: Mine built at Hari by our 2 workers who are en route back to Yas
50: Would you like to stop fighting Shaka? No? Oh. Ok then.
51: Library builds in Hari. Continue with work boat there. Priesthood discovered. Switch to Oracle in Yas.
53: Hari grows to size 3 - runs 2 scientists
54: Second scientist in capital.
60: Shaka: Peace? Hah! Forget it.

So here's where we are, in a nutshell:

• Code of Laws in 4 turns. Confucianism has not yet been discovered.
• Great Scientist will arrive in 7 turns (later than test because no Henge, but 100% guarantee we won't get a priest).
• Oracle currently in around 17 turns (I'm switching around between copper & food now so it varies) but I've not chopped anything yet. We can easily build whenever we need it, with minimal chops
• I've pre-chopped every forest around Yas except for one.

The Decisions:

• I would really, really like to play on just for the next 7 or 8 turns if that's allowed and if you'll let me and if we're going to bulb. Only because I can see exactly all the permutations of switching worked tiles around etc etc from where we are now. But if that's not allowed, that's ok.
• The workboat will build in Hari next turn. Where do you want to send it? South of Shaka, North of Shaka (probably not) or round the marble area first?
• Are we going to bulb the scientist? We need to decide pretty much now, because it changes everything. If we bulb maths on turn 7, I think we can jiggle between copper/clams so that we only need to chop 2 forests to complete the Oracle the following turn, but we might need to chop one extra forest in advance. If we're not going to bulb, then we can probably build the Oracle with no chopping by the time we discover maths. Assuming it's still available of course.

So here's my final pitch for bulbing maths. First, Henge went really early, so the Oracle might go really early too. Second, good old Hari is accumulating 100% scientist GP points and currently would spring a scientist in 10 turns, just 3 turns later than Yas. Of course, this will be delayed once Yas produces the scientist. But it still won't be *too* bad. If we get Oracle/CS, we'll want Yas as a production city, not for GPs, so Yas can quietly build a prophet for (hopefully) the Confucianism shrine while producing hordes of screaming axemen, or whatever. While Hari can carry on getting a scientist together for the Academy. Finally, if we're going to bulb maths, we can research the wheel next and hook copper, which means that Shaka is going to have his work cut out to hit us successfully given all those pre-chopped forests ...

I know this is all crossed-fingers stuff. But as far as I know from all the games I've played, if we bulb maths, then chop the last 2 forests with the 50% chopping bonus so the Oracle builds in a single turn, we are guaranteed to get the Oracle aren't we? So we don't risking bulbing and then still missing CS do we? Or has anyone had a game where they've failed to build a Wonder on the turn it should build?

Just to confirm - if a forest chop is 20 hammers pre-maths, it is 30 hammers post maths, right? I've never actually checked that it works that way ...

 

[erikthecelt]

Nice work, as a rule, we keep going in the early turns to complete a given objective. Captain Mark can make the ruling.

How many turns for Math - you are waiting 3 turns for the GS so are you putting in wheel?

 

[Misotu]

Yes, I'm suggesting we start Wheel immediately after CoL, but only if we are willing to bulb Maths. Otherwise, we'd have to research Maths before Wheel to have a shot at the Oracle. Maths would currently take 9 turns, which I'm convinced would be too late.

BTW, can you confirm the forest chop-value thing post-Maths?

 

[The-Hawk]

I think you should keep going, but let's see what Mark says. We often extend early turns until an objective is complete because it can be hard for the next player to pick up a plan they haven't been executing.

I would eplore marble island first. If there is another seafood to the south, this might become city #3... marble for wonders and a GP factory. Heck, it might be a good city #3 in any event since the cow site is a little jungle infested.

I'll go with the team with respect to bulbing math... OK either way.

 

[erikthecelt]

Yes, I'm suggesting we start Wheel immediately after CoL, but only if we are willing to bulb Maths. Otherwise, we'd have to research Maths before Wheel to have a shot at the Oracle. Maths would currently take 9 turns, which I'm convinced would be too late.

BTW, can you confirm the forest chop-value thing post-Maths?

I am 99% sure you are right but now that you raise the question I have not personally verified it in fact