SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[AgedOne]

That was, without a shadow of a doubt, the most nerve-wracking 8 turns of any game I've ever played in my life

Anyway, I have good news and I have not so good news.

You'll be hearing no complaints from this direction, Misotu.
It's looking very good at the moment.
We've achieved something we set out to do.
Now - - - Let's do it again!!

PS: NO Aged-One, this is *not* what Victory feels like. This is what the first step on the very very long ladder towards Victory feels like

Hmm. I'm currently suffering from 'Victory Starvation'. I'm not sure, but I think my last significant victory was pre-decimalisation.

Shaka. His power is increasing and the sooner he is dealt with the better.

I agree.
He hasn't got those horses yet, but his power is increasing. Copper?
We could have impis on their way over soon.
The workers are already roading to the copper, I see. They should not be diverted from this task. A goodly handful of axemen are what is called for now.
Why do I get the feeling that the reason we haven't seen Shaka and his horde yet is because he's been busy building a horde-and-a-half to come and visit us with?


PS. I like the look of our score graph on the team progress page

 

[Misotu]

I have to agree that Shaka requires attention of an unpleasant kind, despite my Holy Peacenik status. Those horses are sitting there, so I think at least a spear at the choke point would be good at some point maybe.

Still, I expect the mongerers amongst you will consider a single, jungle-fortified spear to be an inadequate response to a Very Furious minus-11-current-relations Shaka with horses and who is vowing never to cease until the last Khmer is crushed into the dust.

And that's why I'm wondering about the civic options. As I may have mentioned in passing previously, my capabilities as a warrior are beneath contempt. So treat the following appropriately. But ... we do have options here. If we did decide to take on Shaka - and I think we probably have little choice - we should take his cities. Now, as The-Hawk has observed, willy-nilly early annexation can wreak havoc with a fledgling economy such as ours. However, caste system gives us the ability to call in The Merchant Task Force in our newly-conquered cities.

There are, I know, many lovers of slavery. I myself have never been a convert (which probably explains my dismal war-time performances). However, I would point out that, in our two current cities, there is not much opportunity for slavery. A capital running bureaucracy is not an ideal candidate for whipping - and our second city has assigned all its pop to diligent scribes, labouring to produce our glorious Academy. So ... maybe caste system has its advantages? Maybe we just knock out a horde of screaming thugs, overwhelm his two paltry cities and draw them into our warm and welcoming fold while introducing the newly-captured citizens to the joys of capitalism?

Then again ... maybe we just whip them to death



Vote early! Vote often! Vote thoughtfully

 

[Misotu]

Hmm. I'm currently suffering from 'Victory Starvation'. I'm not sure, but I think my last significant victory was pre-decimalisation.

Bet you half-a-crown we meet the next objective ...

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Still, I expect the mongerers amongst you will consider a single, jungle-fortified spear to be an inadequate response to a Very Furious minus-11-current-relations Shaka with horses and who is vowing never to cease until the last Khmer is crushed into the dust.

Playing devil's advocate I suppose I should point out that Shaka will make peace if we're willing to give him Hari.

 

[Harbourboy]

I do think we need a war-time government now. All Shaka is going to from now until the end of the game (for him, or us) is build armies. In BtS, he builds truly massive armies and is singleminded in that regard. Our tech advantage will be worth nothing if we let him get a 4-1 unit advantage over us. We need a plan to neutralise him quickly now.

 

[Misotu]

@Sam_Yeager Oh yeah. I didn't think of that option.



So, you're happy with the jungle-fortified spear then?

 

[erikthecelt]

Leave it to the colonial boys, they know how to ride roughshod over the hapless natives.

Civics: CS and Caste
Yas: finish the barracks and start with an axe, spear then more axes
Hari: switch back to barracks - the warrior will turn into a spear when copper is connected. At size 4, we can starve it for a third scientist or work the mine for the

Shaka is in REX mode - he has three cities, 6 archers and two warriors. That's all his power. If you check the power line he built his 2nd city shortly after we did, his hammers are close to ours with fewer blips, so he has not been chopping. His gold has flatlined so not much tech and we have slightly more population than he does but he has one more city costing him resources and keeping Ulundi small, probably building the settlers and worker there.

What we need is a scouting party composed of a spear and axe. Joined at the hip they will be able to torment Shaka to no end.

Tech - Iron Working, that clearing by the lake has a resource, but my reckoning it will be grassland iron. We can finish sailing later. If we do get iron then we can build a settler and start up the cow cottage city. Otherwise we can finish sailing and start up the GP farm.

We have gold and elephants to hook up plus the revolt to confu. Our cities can grow a lot more, so Yas can switch to the cows from one hill and grow a little faster. With iron we build swords, with no iron a large stack of axes and the odd spear will have to do.

Spears and axes can hold back Shaka until we get machinery but I think taking him out sooner is better.

Next object is either growing to 4 cities and building Mausoleum & GLib or relieving the world from Shaka (who I really hope is deciding to build the Great Wall to keep out the Khymer barbarians )

 

[Harbourboy]

that clearing by the lake has a resource

How do you know?

 

[erikthecelt]

How do you know?

no trees or jungle, the map scripts have a habit of filling every tile with trees if there are no resources.

 

[AgedOne]

Leave it to the colonial boys, they know how to ride roughshod over the hapless natives.

Civics: CS and Caste
Yas: finish the barracks and start with an axe, spear then more axes
Hari: switch back to barracks - the warrior will turn into a spear when copper is connected. At size 4, we can starve it for a third scientist or work the mine for the

Shaka is in REX mode - he has three cities, 6 archers and two warriors. That's all his power. If you check the power line he built his 2nd city shortly after we did, his hammers are close to ours with fewer blips, so he has not been chopping. His gold has flatlined so not much tech and we have slightly more population than he does but he has one more city costing him resources and keeping Ulundi small, probably building the settlers and worker there.

What we need is a scouting party composed of a spear and axe. Joined at the hip they will be able to torment Shaka to no end.

Tech - Iron Working, that clearing by the lake has a resource, but my reckoning it will be grassland iron. We can finish sailing later. If we do get iron then we can build a settler and start up the cow cottage city. Otherwise we can finish sailing and start up the GP farm.

We have gold and elephants to hook up plus the revolt to confu. Our cities can grow a lot more, so Yas can switch to the cows from one hill and grow a little faster. With iron we build swords, with no iron a large stack of axes and the odd spear will have to do.

Spears and axes can hold back Shaka until we get machinery but I think taking him out sooner is better.

Next object is either growing to 4 cities and building Mausoleum & GLib or relieving the world from Shaka (who I really hope is deciding to build the Great Wall to keep out the Khymer barbarians )

Wow You can read the power graph and the map in a way that leaves me in awe .
I agree with several of your points here, erikthecelt.

• CS(bureaucracy) and caste are going to be pleasantly productive at this stage of the game.
• Iron Working as our next tech. Definitely!
• The early expeditionary force of 2 metal-wielding troops to hold back Shaka while we build the main 'welcoming committee'. Yep.

My only word of caution (being an inveterate worrier). Could some of those Archers that you have predicted for Shaka actually be Impi? Maybe not quite as many units but more powerful?

I don't think it will change our overall strategy.
Our next aim is clear:

Become much more powerful, larger, and wipe Shaka from our land.
​

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Civics: CS and Caste
Yas: finish the barracks and start with an axe, spear then more axes
Hari: switch back to barracks - the warrior will turn into a spear when copper is connected. At size 4, we can starve it for a third scientist or work the mine for the

An interesting choice of civics. If we really want to deal with Shaka as swiftly as possible then I don't see the point in running two scientists in Hari which means we have virtually no production. We certainly won't be taking advantage of Caste any time soon. With the fish and clams Yas can regrow quite fast. Whilst I am not advocating multiple whipping I certainly think we should be looking to produce an axe and spear as soon as possible.

Shaka is in REX mode - he has three cities, 6 archers and two warriors. That's all his power. If you check the power line he built his 2nd city shortly after we did, his hammers are close to ours with fewer blips, so he has not been chopping. His gold has flatlined so not much tech and we have slightly more population than he does but he has one more city costing him resources and keeping Ulundi small, probably building the settlers and worker there.

I'm impressed with your ability to read the power graph so expertly. Is there any thread you can point me to so that I can increase my knowledge?

What we need is a scouting party composed of a spear and axe. Joined at the hip they will be able to torment Shaka to no end.

A good idea but our fortified warrior also needs some backup whilst we're building our attack force.

Tech - Iron Working, that clearing by the lake has a resource, but my reckoning it will be grassland iron. We can finish sailing later. If we do get iron then we can build a settler and start up the cow cottage city. Otherwise we can finish sailing and start up the GP farm.

I'm not against IW but I would like to see us concentrating on producing axes and spears whilst we wait.

EDIT: Cross post with AgedOne.

 

[Harbourboy]

Go get Shaka!

/end useful advice for the evening.

 

[Misotu]

An interesting choice of civics. If we really want to deal with Shaka as swiftly as possible then I don't see the point in running two scientists in Hari which means we have virtually no production. We certainly won't be taking advantage of Caste any time soon. With the fish and clams Yas can regrow quite fast. Whilst I am not advocating multiple whipping I certainly think we should be looking to produce an axe and spear as soon as possible.

You're right about needing these units quickly, no question. But I don't think you need have any fears on that score. When we run bureaucracy, Yas can produce either an axe or a spear in under 2 turns while growing and well under 2 turns in max hammer low-growth mode. So, once we've done the turns of anarchy for civic/religion changes (which will enable us to hook up copper just as the barracks finishes, I think, if the 2 workers build roads as a team) Yas can probably churn out 4 axes/spears in 7 turns or so. We could also chop forest to speed this, if we wanted to. We might want to do this anyway, to get another mine or even two from those forested hills, ready for when Yas grows.

The other thing is that, once we hook up gold & ivory, plus we convert to Confucianism, Yas gets an extra +3 happiness and can grown 3 more pop, all of which can be put to very good use. I think Yas should be growing right now, I'd be reluctant to lose any pop there just to save a turn or so of unit production, especially if erikthecelt's amazingly detailed analysis of the graph is on the nail.

Also, I think Hari should definitely continue with the 2 scientists. Even if we work the pig, the mine and a new mine in Hari, the production there will be nothing much by comparison with Yas. The Academy, on the other hand, is vital to the next part of our plan, and we want this as soon as possible to minimise the opportunity cost of that maths bulb.

It's not so much whether we can use caste any time soon (although we can, by micro-managing Hari to shave a turn or two off that great scientist) - more the fact that if we choose it now, we save a turn of anarchy later. The cost of running caste system/bureaucracy at the moment appears to be 0.

The one thing slavery might give us is the ability to whip garrisons (or even courthouses) in new acquisitions, but I think we'd be better off using a few merchant specialists to keep research up while we sort out our economy.

 

[erikthecelt]

Klarius wrote up some stuff about reading the power graph in the always war sgotm. Mostly it's from looking at the information in the various graphs and putting that together with experience from playing.

 

[Misotu]

@erikthecelt: Brilliant post Seems you colonial boys do know a thing or two about this mongering lark Like the others, I'm speechless with awe at your analysis of the power graph. I've been back and looked at it in the light of your comments & I still don't have a clue how you know all this.

Sounds like you've just come up with an instant plan. Totally agree with:

• Ironworking next - it will take 9 turns currently if we keep production up in Yas (sorry about the sailing )
• Adopt bureaucracy/caste system
• Convert to confucianism
• Early expeditionary force (soon to be joined by conquering hordes of screaming thugs no doubt )
• Hooking up resources: Just 9 roads will give copper, gold, elephants, (cow), and a direct route, crossing no rivers, from Yas towards Shaka, with a one-road spur connecting Hari too (then the two cities trade as an extra bonus). We can do this really quickly with 2 workers.

The tech path will be interesting. Iron working will take 9 turns, and then we have a number of options (all turns shown at current rates, which will decrease) including:

Finish sailing - 2 turns
Go for catapults - Masonry (3 turns) then Construction (15 turns)
Pottery for cottages - 4 turns

The route to maces is pottery (4), metal casting (19) then machinery (35), which gives Shaka time to be quite annoying. Would going for cats be sensible if we want to finish Shaka quickly? Course, if he only has archers & not impis, axes/swords might do it alone.

What are we going to do with the missionary? Use him or save him? I guess we could hope for auto-spread and keep the missionary until we need the extra happiness in Yas?

 

[Harbourboy]

You guys rock!

 

[Misotu]

Indeed, The Geezers do. But since AgedOne and I remember decimalisation, I think you can assume that we do it very slowly, making sure we don't strain our backs.

 

[erikthecelt]

We can build up to 4 cities and keep Shaka occupied at the choke point. 2 Axes and 2 spears will keep Shaka out of our territory. As long as we stay outside his cultural borders, we will not trigger the military build up until he has finished the early REX(it's getting close). Shaka will send a few troops that will suicide on our defenders in the choke point. The Ai has a very prdictable early development pattern. Build 3 archers then a settler, then an archer and worker. The settler will leave the city with 1 archer escort, a second archer will follow, 1 square behind the settler. If the settler meets anything hostile, it retreats back while the escorting archer fortifies.

Most of what I stated about Shaka can be understood from looking at the production, gold and food graphs. Early power graphs are not too hard to read either, just watch your own and see what it does when you do a few things. It gets much harder later on because there are too many factors in the power graph to really tell what's going on. Usually the AI graph is over rated because it values too many defensive items like walls and archers.

Go for writing early sometime and get open borders, then sit a unit beside an AI capital and watch what they do.

The key decision in my mind is do we go for Shaka now or build up a little. I think we should take him out now but we can settle the cow city if it produces iron. The-Hawk is better at warmongering, so I would like to hear what he has to say. For me the key to this game is to build slowly but get a good tech lead.

 

[erikthecelt]

Just updated Hawk's spreadsheet, our score is 0.15. There are two wonders available out there for the taking, Henge and Kashi Vishnawath (1 less prophet that we need).

After IW, I am for sailing, pottery, masonary then see where we are at. Wiser heads may advise otherwards.

This geezer remembers Imperial before everything went metric over here (for the record, I'm 56).

 

[Misotu]

At this rate, the rare footage of Geezers rocking may need some serious editing. Is anyone in this team under 50? I turned 50 this month.

What you're saying about the choke point makes sense.

I think one of the things that will really help with the plan is what our workboat finds next. If we move along Shaka's south coast, we may eventually establish that we're isolated on a relatively small island with just him for company. If we meet other civs, alphabet starts looking attractive fairly early, not necessarily for trading possibilities but to find out where they are, tech-wise.

If the land mass appears to be large, we might consider an extra exploring work boat at Yas after the initial military builds.