SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[Sam_Yeager]

That said, the mining of the hills around Ulundi will help the conquest.

I think we probably should not be trying to build so many of the early wonders by our selves.

Which city is going to have Heroic Epic? Yas or Ulundi? Will we put Oxford in the Iron (hopefully) city

Ok, let's think about what wonders we actually want/need to build in the short to medium term and why. Then let's think how feasible it is to build them and where. FWIW I agree with Misotu's argument that we could use Ulundi for production without significantly impairing it's use for other purposes.

As I said earlier we have plenty of time to do this as we're comfortably ahead of most teams wrt turns played.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Further to my post above please see the following list. It is in no particular order of preference.

Wonders built so far

Stonehenge
Kashi Vishwanath (Hindu)
Oracle
Great Wall
Temple of Solomon (Judaism)
Pyramids

Possible Wonders

Colossus (GM)
Temple of Artemis (GP)
Great Lighthouse (GM)
Moai Statues (+) (GP)
Parthenon (GA)
Statue of Zeus (GA)
Shwedagon Paya (GP)
Hanging Gardens (GE)
Mausoleum of Maussollos (GA)
Heroic Epic (+) (GA)
National Epic (+) (GA)
Great Library (GS)
Chichen Itza (GP)
Globe (+) (GA)

 

[erikthecelt]

@Sam - could you separate the National Wonders from the World wonders in your list.

 

[Harbourboy]

It's so hard to plan ahead without more idea of where everything is in the world. We need to train our brave young sailors so they can venture forth on a voyage of discovery!

 

[Sam_Yeager]

@Sam - could you separate the National Wonders from the World wonders in your list.

I've updated the post. Those wonders with (+) are National Wonders.

 

[AgedOne]

It's so hard to plan ahead without more idea of where everything is in the world. We need to train our brave young sailors so they can venture forth on a voyage of discovery!

We have had a crew of intrepid young explorers already out there and doing it for some years now. Unfortunately, they are all trained in fishing rather than true seafaring. And the boat is pretty naff. And they found the southern ice-pack before coming home, cold wet and tired.

We need to send them out again, before they get used to the quiet life at home.

Or train a true galley of brave young sailors.

 

[erikthecelt]

We need several discussion threads. I still haven't seen anyone really confirm the long term strategy, which I think should be cripple or conquer all the AI by 1800, capturing all cities with world wonders or shrines then using Golden Ages to rush as many late wonders as required to reach the top of The-Hawks wonder curve.

What world wonders do we want to produce in the near future and where.

What cities will each of our national wonders be granted as any city is limited to 2 of them.

What are our immediate tactical goals given that our current objective is to grow the economy and increase the research rate as much as possible.

 

[Harbourboy]

Erik is right that we need to revisit our long term strategy. It doesn't look like the semi-peaceful builder approach is going to net us many wonders, but the question is about when we go after the foreign ones. Is it near constant war, or is a builder phase followed by a hunt for the missing wonders, using more modern weaponry?

 

[The-Hawk]

Hi all...

Been a little tied up , but I am very happy to see the turn the discussion has taken. Erik, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Up to now, we've had a pretty clear set of short term goals driven by early expansion decisions and shaka showing up. Now we have lots of options available to us. We really do need to get our strategic objectives sorted out so that we can pick the right short term plans.

I think we need to slip into builder mode a bit (of course, after we finish off Shaka). We need to get our tech rockin and rolling to make up for lost time from the war. I think the fastest way to get all the wonders is to create a very hot tech pace... including pulling one or two AI's along with us. If we get one or two AIs ahead of the pack on techs, they can build the wonders we don't want ourselves. Since it is only 1 or 2 AI's building the wonders, we won't need to capture too many cities to get them. Then we simply need a victory condition to end the game. Could be culture, could be domination if we've killed a few AI's along the way.

So repeating what a few other said, time to get our key cities settled. I think 4 settlers: on the marble, near stone, 1W of cows, and a GP farm further west of cow city.

Mark, I assume you will pause in the war with Shaka once you've revealed a city? We'll need to decide keep or raze.

 

[AgedOne]

I know this is a vague generalisation, but as our empire grows we will have to keep a very careful hold on our economy.
If, for example, we decided to knock out Joao after Shaka, how do we stop ourselves falling into the state of economic paralysis where tech rate drops gradually to zero?

Obviously, one well-known source of funds is the gold from captured cities. If we continue rolling over cities at regular intervals, we can keep ourselves afloat. But there always comes a point where you must pause.

During times of relative peace, we need another method, or combination of.
Shrines we have mentioned. Courthouses are essential.
Anyone have any views on this?

 

[markh]

Just returned home. Will catch up later today.

 

[Misotu]

It doesn't look like the semi-peaceful builder approach is going to net us many wonders, but the question is about when we go after the foreign ones. Is it near constant war, or is a builder phase followed by a hunt for the missing wonders, using more modern weaponry?

I think this is right. When we discussed the military option quite early on I think we came to the conclusion that, given we're looking at islands rather than a single continent, and given the game speed, an all-out military campaign was a non-starter. So I think we thought we'd try to tech ahead as fast as we could, build some Wonders ourselves, get a serious military advantage and then take the Wonders we hadn't built? As far as I knew we were still working to that I agree it's a bit suck-it-and-see as far as plans go but on the other hand, if we don't think an all-out military campaign is viable and since we know we can't build all the Wonders ourselves, then I'm not sure what other options there are unless we've changed our minds about the all-out military strategy?

If we're still doing the hybrid approach, then I think it just comes down to how fast we build those 4 extra cities and, as AgedOne is saying, how we handle the impact on the economy (especially if we decide to keep Shaka's other two cities. That's a lot of extra cities at this stage).

I agree that building Wonders willy nilly doesn't make sense. But if we're all agreed we build Marble and Stone Cities then we're obviously intending to build a few. I think there are three that make sense right now in terms of the hybrid approach of early rex/tech and later military:

• Shwedagon for the early shrine and later priests. Plus it's incredibly quick to build - around 7 turns with gold/organised religion I think.
• Parthenon for the huge GP boost.
• G Lib for the tech boost.

If we get one or two AIs ahead of the pack on techs, they can build the wonders we don't want ourselves. Since it is only 1 or 2 AI's building the wonders, we won't need to capture too many cities to get them. Then we simply need a victory condition to end the game. Could be culture, could be domination if we've killed a few AI's along the way.

This seems very reasonable. Until we have a bit more data on who is out there, though, it's quite difficult to know who to nurture. There's an industrial nutter with stone out there, we know that It also probably knocks out further military action in the very immediate future - no point in ensuring that our new best friends are on the other side of the world ...

 

[erikthecelt]

The long term strategy is to build as many available wonders as possible and then with surgical strikes, capture all cities with wonders/shrines/corporate HQ. We will accomplish this by developing a coalition of tech friends who will aid us in acquiring a technology advantage.

Our tech path should support the priority of acquiring these wonders.
Economic/Education Wonders
Great Lib
Colossus
Great Lighthouse
U of Sankore
Statue of Liberty
Temple of Artemis

In addition, we plan to be first to 3 religions, so we need 3 prophets. To produce those prophets we need to acquire wonders that generate GP points.

Key Religious Wonders
Shewydagon Paya
Ankor Wat


Here's a list of proposed sites for National Wonders:

Yas - Ironworks, Heroic Epic
Ulundi - National Park, National Epic
Stone City - Red Cross, Mt Rushmore
Nobamba - Forbidden Palace, West Point
Marble City - Moai Statues
Cow City - Oxford, Globe Theatre
Hari - Wall Street, Hermitage

Immediate goals:
1. Found additional 4 cities
2. Neutralize Shaka
3. Make friends
4. Boost the beakers per turn

More later...

 

[erikthecelt]

Strategic Wonders
Parthenon
Mausoleum

City Specialization

Yas - wonder building
Hari - commerce, missionaries
Cow/Iron - commerce
Marble - GP Farm (early years -to 1000AD), naval units
Stone - military units
Nobamba - commerce/production mixed(cottage the grass tiles)
Ulundi - settlers, workers, GP Farm after 1000AD
Rice bowl - commerce

Immediate goals: (in order of importance)

1. Found additional 4 cities - the 4 Hawk indicated - Yas can produce settlers for marble and stone, Ulundi can produce for cow and rice.

2. Neutralize Shaka - explore his remaining 2 cities ( a 3rd may be on the way because the settler escaped from Ulundi).

3. Boost the beakers per turn - Courthouses, cottages, markets, shrine.

4. Make friends - exploring galleys need to carry a missionary. Any civ without a religion should be granted our benevolent understanding of the world.


Wonder Priority:
Economic/Education
Religious
Strategic

City Builds

Yas - settler, wonder. The current settler goes to marble, the second goes to stone
Hari - worker, workboat (for marble), worker, market
Nobamba - courthouse, missionary, worker, missionary
Ulundi - courthouse, worker, settler, Wonder (see what's available from our priority list)
Marble - workboat for stone city, Moai statues
Stone - granary, barracks, units
Cow - granary, library, market, courthouse
Rice - granary, library, market, courthouse

 

[Harbourboy]

Those sound like sensible plans to me, EriktheCelt.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

The long term strategy is to build as many available wonders as possible and then with surgical strikes, capture all cities with wonders/shrines/corporate HQ. We will accomplish this by developing a coalition of tech friends who will aid us in acquiring a technology advantage.

Remind me, how are we intending to win this game?

Our tech path should support the priority of acquiring these wonders.
Economic/Education Wonders
Great Lib
Colossus
Great Lighthouse
U of Sankore
Statue of Liberty
Temple of Artemis

ToA is an early wonder so is the list the priority order for getting these wonders?

In addition, we plan to be first to 3 religions, so we need 3 prophets. To produce those prophets we need to acquire wonders that generate GP points.

Key Religious Wonders
Shewydagon Paya
Ankor Wat

Are these prophets supposed to bulb the relevant techs or build the shrines?

Here's a list of proposed sites for National Wonders:

Yas - Ironworks, Heroic Epic
Ulundi - National Park, National Epic
Stone City - Red Cross, Mt Rushmore
Nobamba - Forbidden Palace, West Point
Marble City - Moai Statues
Cow City - Oxford, Globe Theatre
Hari - Wall Street, Hermitage

I can the reasoning behind Moai Statues for Marble city. However @ 3 per turn it will take in excess of 80 turns to build. Yas could well be a better site. Equally the FP may be more suitable a bit further away.

Immediate goals:
1. Found additional 4 cities
2. Neutralize Shaka
3. Make friends
4. Boost the beakers per turn

I disagree with this order. A key priority for us is to scout further. Not only to find Shaka's remaining cities but also to find what resources are in the SW of this land. Going gung ho for 4 additional cities also strikes me as an excellent way of crashing our economy with a consequent hit to beakers. I can see the benefit of Marble city for the resource and GP farm. The only benefit of Stone city is the resource but do we need stone in the near future? Even if we do I wouldn't like us to found more than two cities until we've explored Shaka's land to the NW.

 

[erikthecelt]

Remind me, how are we intending to win this game?

By having the most wonders per turn
By that time we should have several options available to us to choose from.

ToA is an early wonder so is the list the priority order for getting these wonders?

No, it's a list to select from when we see what's available at the time we are ready to build a wonder.

:
Are these prophets supposed to bulb the relevant techs or build the shrines?

Build the shrines - so keeping Yas free of GP pollution will be important

:
I can the reasoning behind Moai Statues for Marble city. However @ 3 per turn it will take in excess of 80 turns to build. Yas could well be a better site. Equally the FP may be more suitable a bit further away.

We are in no rush on the Moai statues and Yas does not have enough costal tiles for it to matter. It's better being the late game military pump.
I was allocating National wonders over planned and existing cities. We may not have many cities farther away for a long time. I expect Versailles would be farther away because it comes later.

:
I disagree with this order. A key priority for us is to scout further. Not only to find Shaka's remaining cities but also to find what resources are in the SW of this land. Going gung ho for 4 additional cities also strikes me as an excellent way of crashing our economy with a consequent hit to beakers. I can see the benefit of Marble city for the resource and GP farm. The only benefit of Stone city is the resource but do we need stone in the near future? Even if we do I wouldn't like us to found more than two cities until we've explored Shaka's land to the NW.

I would not call it gung ho. Ulundi will take some time before it produces a settler. We have both Courthouses and markets available to us so I don't see the economy crashing like the real world one did this week. We have the land, we need to get growing as we are behind. In monarch with our tech level 8 cities is quite reasonable.

 

[markh]

Sorry, I did not manage to post still yesterday.

For my set :

Try to take out one of Shaka's remaining cities. (Will stop and discuss whether we want to keep or raze)

What wonder do we want in Yas after the settler ? I haven't opened the save, but I do not think there is any wonder left to build. We need Aest before we can build a wonder there, so I am still for a workboat and worker while researching Aest.

 

[The-Hawk]

OK, two posts coming. This one has comments from looking at the save, next is my 2 cents on the strategic conversation.

• RE: Shaka. I think we finish Shaka completely. No reason to have him rebuild military or to risk unhappy captured cities. Besides, we know he has at least two workers and we need workers in a big way. Mark if you could post a screenie once we see his cities, then we can decide keep or raze. Also, if his workers are not hiding in the last city, make sure we capture them before killing the city.
• RE: Military. I agree with Erik, our military is sufficient. I would complete the cat in Hari, then we are good for a while. Other than MP's for our new cities, we should not build more military (and we might use some of our existing axemen as MP's instead of building new).
• RE: First settler. I would settle him directly on the marble. This will be a GP farm that can run 7 specialists. Yas does not need its fish. I envision Yas flipping between two roles. In times of peace, Yaz works cottages and up to three priests as a Prophet farm. In times of war, Yas can put the priests to work in the mines to produce military. However, if one of Shaka's remaining cities has marble (and is worth keeping), then we might consider the stone city first.
• RE: GG. I'll go with the crowd on this. If it were me, I'd join him to Yaso, but I really don't know much about the super-medic option, so I can't comment.
• RE: Workers. We need more... badly. Let's get Shaka's. As Erik suggested, we should be building one worker for every settler, or we will take too long to develop cities.
• RE: Yas Builds. For this next turn set, Yas goes settler (1 turn left) -> worker -> settler -> worker.
• RE: Hari builds. Hari fires the scientists (so we get prophet next), completes cat. I would slip a granary in next to speed growth and allow whipping. Granary followed by a worker.
• RE: Nobamba builds. Changed my mind on CH. I think we need a worker first. 8 turns for worker, the get the cows and horses on line... we will finish the CH way sooner this way. I think the captured workers will be too slow coming (they will run to Shaka's last city).

 

[The-Hawk]

Oops, crossed posts with Mark. A couple of more thoughts:

Thinking about Shaka some more. As someone suggested earlier, it may be better to leave him a crappy, pillaged city for 10 turns if he gives us a tech. He will give horseback already, not a bad idea to pick it up for free.

What wonder do we want in Yas after the settler ? I haven't opened the save, but I do not think there is any wonder left to build.

I agree with Erik. We need to be careful not to pollute Yas's GP pool so we can get a some prophets. At the moment, we can only build Chichen Itza. This may not be a terrible option as it does produce prophet points. However, it is a pretty useless wonder, not sure it is worth it.