SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[erikthecelt]

You're right - Shaka only has 2 more. I remember you saying you could tell from the graphs that he'd built 4.

Actually I look at the city list in the diplomacy screen. It lists everything but the capital. Much easier than trying to read the graphs. Early on, there is a noticable jump in power when a city is founded.

I like the idea of starting the settlers/galley. What do we build in Hari, if we're calling a halt to military production for now? I guess we'll be using our surviving war units as defenders once the war is over, rather than building further MP units?

Hari will be a while finishing the current spear which can go as MP for the stone city. We need development (read workers and settlers) and exploration.
So we need the galley, 3 settlers(stone, marble and cow), a worker for stone city, 2 workers for the cow city (lots of jungle to cut and cottages to build), Ulundi looks to provide it's own worker (thanks Shaka ). Yas should produce all of the workers with that bonus. So another settler in Hari or a market would be the choices. When do we get the prophet? Having a market in place when the shrine is built would probably be a good idea.

Mark is up next so he should probably have some time to review the save after Aged-One brings enlightment to Ulundi.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

If we have 4 cats, 7 axes and 3 spears I would say we can flip Yas to a galley and settler for the stone.

Wasn't the idea to build a temple next after the military? Judging by Nobamba we're likely to lose at least another two cats at Ulundi. I would build at least another cat after the current one.

Hari should probably build either temple/monastery or a courthouse. It seems to me that at least one worker should be connecting Nomamba & Ulundi (to be) to the road network

EDIT: Cross post with erik.

 

[erikthecelt]

Set a priest on in Yas.

Aged-One built the temple on turn 2 or 3. It's already there.

No more cats, I prefer dogs

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Aged-One built the temple on turn 2 or 3. It's already there.

Oops,

No more cats, I prefer dogs

But dogs require walkers which means more units unlike cats.

 

[erikthecelt]

We need to be more aggresive in persuing our objectives. We can always make up the cat after we let the dogs out.

Seriously, Ulundi or Nobamba can produce something closer to the action once we find out where the other cities are and what units they have. The troops can heal in Ulundi while we scout the other 2 cities. In the meantime, getting the stone without a fight is way more valuable than finishing off Shaka 1 turn earlier.

 

[Misotu]

Actually I look at the city list in the diplomacy screen.

Oh. So not the Mystical Powers then

On the cats front, I still think no more for the moment. Lets see how the next conquest goes and then review. We might get lucky with the cats And while they may not need walking, they still need feeding. Which comes expensive

Actually, on the cats subject, I noticed that when the 4 cats attacked, 2 withdrew. Are the odds of this better in BtS, to make up for the fact that they can't kill units? In my Vanilla/Warlords games, I think I was lucky to get 1 in 4 withdrawing. Or is that just my usual military aplomb kicking in?

 

[markh]

I experienced exactly the opposite. In BTS my cats die much more often than in my vanilla/warlords games. From 4 cats attacking in BTS I have hardly one surviving.

I guess Shaka will not have much military left. He was in expansion mode, so usually even Shaka does not build up much military. His other two cities will be fairly small and undeveloped, so he cannot even whip. Once we have Ulundi he should fold quite easily. Still I would say we need one cat each for his other two cities. 4 cats might be a little short, but let AgedOne take Ulundi. Then we can see how to handle the rest.

 

[Misotu]

Well, that's 3 votes for holding off on cats for the moment, so if AgedOne agrees, I guess he's good to go Mark? If he has time to play on right now, that is.

This is on the basis that I don't think Thrallia is around at the moment and anyway, as HB so justly pointed out, he's too young to count So that would be 4 out of 7.

Build order in Yas? I think it depends on growth - if we are still able to grow, I'd start the galley, at least, and try to get max growth in before we build the settlers. I'd be inclined to leave the workers just for a little - you never know, Shaka may donate 2 workers rather than just 1 to the cause.

Erikthecelt's idea of trading for IW is also still on the table. If we need to rest up seriously after the third city - or even build one more cat, heh - then we could give his last tiny pathetic city 10 turns of life in exchange for that tech, if he's willing? I don't think we should do it before he's down to one city and deprived of copper/horse though.

 

[AgedOne]

Hi. Just in from work again, and catching up on the thread.
I will be able to play in about an hour.
My main aim is to take Ulundi and then stop.
I'll switch build in Yas from cat to galley. (as has been mentioned, we already have a temple in Yas and are running a priest)
Workers rush off and go cottage-crazy.
I'll heal the cats in Nobamba and they join the Ulundi war effort.

ps. It's cool for cats

 

[Harbourboy]

I don't have a strong view on the miliatry requirements as I always build too many units just in case, which tends to slow me down. I am not great at assessing the optimum army size.

 

[erikthecelt]

Hi. Just in from work again, and catching up on the thread.
I will be able to play in about an hour.
My main aim is to take Ulundi and then stop.
I'll switch build in Yas from cat to galley. (as has been mentioned, we already have a temple in Yas and are running a priest)
Workers rush off and go cottage-crazy.
I'll heal the cats in Nobamba and they join the Ulundi war effort.

ps. It's cool for cats

I suggested finishing the current build and then starting the galley not switching right away. Of course if it has no hammers then go ahead and switch.

 

[AgedOne]

Yes. No hammers yet on cat, so I'll switch.

One more thought I didn't mention: switch Nobamba build to courthouse.

 

[AgedOne]

Summary
We have Ulundi!
I played one extra turn so I could see it fall.
We have just researched Currency.
Some nutter already built the Pyramids.
I was a little careless with a couple of our axemen. Sorry.

Detail

Turn 5, contd...
Worker1 to Hari ready to cottage
Worker2 to Yas ready to cottage
Switched Yas build to galley
Switched Nobamba build to courthouse

IBT
Shaka piles the defenders into Ulundi. He now has 2 axes, 2 archers, 1 impi

Turn 6
Bombard Ulundi down to 24%
Units converging on Ulundi.
1 cat healed in Nobamba and starts moving to Ulundi.
Fit axeman goes with, leaving healing spear and cat in Nobamba.
Workers begin cottages by Yas and Hari.

IBT
Impi rushes out of Ulundi right into the midst of our forces (but on jungle)
Barb axeman appears to S of Nobamba.

Turn 7
We killed impi - but lost 1 axe
Bombard Ulundi down to 16%
Units continue arriving at Ulundi.
Ensure one axe heads towards Nobamba in case barb fancies his chances.
Yas completes galley. Starts 1 more axe to replace the dead.
Galley head out of Yas aiming to round the eastern tip and guard fish-farm.
Last cat healed in Nobamba and heads north.

Shaka now has 2 axes, 2 archers in Ulundi.
Outside we have cat, 5 axes, 2 spears. 2 more cats will arrive next turn. then the final one.

IBT
Hari borders expanded.
Another (wounded) barb axe appears south of Nobamba.
Shaka rushed a 3rd axe in Ulundi.

Turn 8
Yas completes axe and starts settler.
Bombard Ulundi down to 8%
WB is now skirting north shores of stone-island.

Ulundi defences: 3 axes, 2 archers
Ulundi task force: 3 cats, 5 axes, 2 spears.
1 turns reservists: 1 cat
reservists: 3 axes, but with Nobamba defence in mind also.

IBT
Shaka piles everything into Ulundi.
The first barb axe arrives outside Nobamba.
Someone completed the Pyramids! This is turn 105 and that is stupidly early!!

Turn 9
Bombard Ulundi to 0%.
Last cat arrives at Ulundi.
Don't attack barb axe at 50%. Let him attack us fortified in city.

Ulundi defences: 3 axes; 2 impi; 2 archers
Ulundi task force: 4 cats; 5 axes; 2 spears
1 turn reservists: axe

IBT
Ulundi now has 3 axes, 3 impi, 2 archers
Barb loses to our axe at Nobamba.

Turn 10
Attack!
Cat 1 causes 6 damage, loses.
Cat 2 causes 6 damage, loses.
Cat 3 causes 5 damage, withdraws.
Cat 4 causes 5 damage, withdraws.
Axes and spears all win easily - leaving just 1 impi in Ulundi down to strength 1.0.

Hari completed spear, starts cat.
Defeated barb axe by Nobamba but (sorry) lost 1 axe.

IBT
Learned Currency.
Shaka added a chariot to Ulundi defence.

Turn 11
Final assault on Ulundi.
Cat attacks. No collateral. Withdraws.
Axe beats impi.
Axe beats chariot - and Ulundi is won!
And a great general is born in Yas!

Moved remaining units into Ulundi to heal.

Temporarily rested Gt General ready for next player.
Temporarily set next research to be Iron Working.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Shaka piles everything into Ulundi.
....
....
....
Ulundi defences: 3 axes; 2 impi; 2 archers

It's just amazing how the AI manages to conjure up units from thin air. Well done on taking Ulundi.

EDIT: I see Shaka made a significant impact on our power on the progress chart.

EDIT 2: I see Shaka rebuilt the copper mine. No wonder he had all those axes for defence.

 

[AgedOne]

I see Shaka made a significant impact on our power on the progress chart.

Yes. Strange that. We actually lost just 4 cats and 2 axes in 11 turns of conflict, but I suppose this coincided with stopping producing military at a fast rate.

Shaka lost a few more I counted 17 units of his we defeated.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

My first suggestion for the next turnset is to get our workers over to Nobamba to build some pastures.

 

[erikthecelt]

Congrats on the victory Aged-One. There is a lesson to be learned here. Don't engage in slow pounding down of the cultural defenses. The longer you take, the more units the AI will whip in the defending city. The better tactic is to heal your full stack outside of the cultural borders and act quickly in attack. I think next time we should wait for all the cats to heal before moving in to attack another city. Of course, our new super medic will help that out.

 

[AgedOne]

There is a lesson to be learned here. Don't engage in slow pounding down of the cultural defenses. The longer you take, the more units the AI will whip in the defending city.

I agree.
I think the mistake I made here was starting the move from Nobamba to Ulundi when several units - crucially most of the cats - were still needing to heal.
I should have simply camped down by Nobamba until the whole force was ready to move up.

 

[Harbourboy]

So, what now?

No need to try and build Pyramids now. Looks like some industrial powerhouse is out there somewhere (maybe Ramesses). Does this mean we need to go the warmonger route more wholeheartedly?

We need more intelligence about who and what is out there.

 

[erikthecelt]

We have to agree on where we are settling the next city and what we are doing.
Hari has started a cat, it should fire the scientists and start a worker. They can work the other hill and the cottaged tile.
We have lots of gold, we can increase research to 100% and learn IW in 3 turns but we need to decide the tech path after IW - Aesthetics and Lit open lots of marble wonders. We need to build prophet points in Yas - Shweydagon gives GP points and opens up pacifism. Ankor Wat requires philosophy but allows 3 priests to be run.
Yas can produce 2 more settles - this will crash our economy so maybe alternate workers and settlers until we have enough. I guess we are switching from working the hills to working the river cottages as we can't work both.
Once our stack in Ulundi is healthy, it move to the hill and take the next city.
Nombamba should work a 2 tile to speed the courthouse - until we get the pastures going. Ulundi will work what it can once it gets out of revolt. It has a granary and lighthouse so it's going to grow quickly. Gonna be a really nice city.
A granary and lighthouse in Yas would be sweet. Lots to choose from now.
Lots of growing to do.