SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[The-Hawk]

Can someone explain what they are talking about with the fort as a channel?

In BtS, forts act like cities with respect to boats. Basically it makes a channel across the peninsula. A WB from the capital could pass down the channel (through the fort) to the other side.

And why they think that starting position is ugly?

Start is OK, what sucks is the land to the east. I would have preferred some gems... or food... even a calendar resource. What we found was two jungles.

And why we would rule out culture as a victory type?

We haven't.

 

[markh]

Can someone explain what they are talking about with the fort as a channel?

And why they think that starting position is ugly?

And why we would rule out culture as a victory type?

The starting position is ugly as a city in the West is more or less useless in the beginning. It will just cost maintenance. We can just hope that the land to the West is better, otherwise it will be almost an OCC.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

mark wants BW as initial tech and worker as first build. The-Hawk thinks AH as initial tech and worker might be better. I think Fishing as initial tech (to be followed by AH or BW) and scout as first build has advantages.

Any more for any more?

 

[AgedOne]

Phew! Things are starting to happen.
From the look of things, I would agree that we stay where we are, or (maybe) move west. We don't want to go any further east - like the cattle square. Worse land after expansion, and too many sea squares.

Excellent spot about the use of a fort as cut-thru, The-Hawk!! That hadn't occurred to me, but is the perfect solution.

I certainly wouldn't rule out culture as a victory to aim for. Maybe we can build some early wonders (just those that get us ahead of the crowd, like 'Mids, Oracle, Gt Lib), followed by a militaristic stage as we wreck the others and expand. Finally a second wonder stage where we build for culture. Does that sound a possible route?

 

[AgedOne]

mark wants BW as initial tech and worker as first build. The-Hawk thinks AH as initial tech and worker might be better. I think Fishing as initial tech (to be followed by AH or BW) and scout as first build has advantages.

Any more for any more?

Whoops! Missed this one - crossed with my post.

I think we go for a worker first up regardless. Our first research should be AH if we are aiming to strengthen our position and build first. If we want to go military right from the off, I would get BW, but that may not even be possible (i.e. we may be alone). AH gives us growth and helps our building potential. We must continue revealing the map, of course.

 

[Harbourboy]

Harbourboy's Guide to Victory Conditions:

TIME: Pros - we get our money's worth; plenty of time to get all wonders; easy condition to achieve(?)
Cons: - we'd get bored by the end; wonder to time ratio in end game not good

SPACE: Pros - plenty of time to get all wonders
Cons - might take too long to get good finishing time

DIPLOMACY: Pros - doesn't require massive army or huge empire; can finish before space or time; Thrallia is expert
Cons - depends on unpredictable AI actions; might need to attack friends to get wonders

CULTURE: Pros - compatible with lots of wonders; doesn't require large army or AI helpfulness; time to get wonders
Cons - hard to get lots of Artists, might take too long

DOMINATION: Pros - can get everyone's wonders, can be quick, will be powerful, units are the wonder that keeps on giving
Cons - normal speed, non-pangaea, hard to build wonders and units

CONQUEST: Pros - can get everyone's wonders, will be powerful, units are the wonder that keeps on giving
Cons - normal speed, non-pangaea, hard to build wonders and units, hard to get last isolated AI

RELIGIOUS: Pros - can be fastest condition of all, don't need big army
Cons - quite tricky to get religious spread right, might not get many wonders.

 

[Thrallia]

I think worker first and AH is the best build, I'd follow that with fishing and then either BW or Sailing(depends on what else we find in our neighborhood...might want sailing early to get the marble city up early).

As for victory conditions, I still think that with a Gyathaar map we'll either need astro, or need very creative culture bridges to get to every other AI. Because of that, I think that a religious victory would be fastest.

Pros:

• Only need to tech to Optics, not Astro
• Theo is an easy reach for a Oracle slingshot, or for just researching
• If we found Christianity with Theo and then build the AP, then we will then control all religious spread
• If we don't convert to Christianity until the turn of the winning vote, we'll be able to self-vote(unless they changed that in the newest patch?)
• If we only found 1-2 religions, so much the better for us in terms of the AI not spreading the religion on their own

Cons:

• AI might adopt and spread our religion making it harder to get enough votes to win
• Ind/Spi leader might bulb Theo and build AP before we can

That's how I see a Religious victory as being...even if we don't need astro to finish a dom/conq victory, the amount of effort required in shuttling around troops in galleys among what would basically be an archipelago type of map is daunting...especially given the normal game speed(and the fact that in order to go war, we'll have to forgo wonder building)

oh yeah, and I vote settle in place as well

 

[AgedOne]

I'm getting very interested in this talk about a religious victory. I have to confess that I have never been anywhere near this area of BTS. To me it's a darkened room at the end of a long dark corridor!

So can anyone start my education off, please? I will head over to the strategy guides and see if there's some useful threads, but in the meantime...

I guess it's like the UN, in that we have to get a few friendly AI on side to vote for us, but they will all have to have the same religion? I will get a vote, because I built the AP, but my rival will be ?? the civ with the right religion and the largest population?
Which religion is the one used for the AP? Is it the one run by the civ that builds it, or the one in the city that builds it, or what?

@Thrallia
What's the thing about self-voting. I don't understand that at all (yet).

Help!

 

[Thrallia]

The AP religion is the state religion of the civ that builds it(at the time it is built)

If a civ has that religion inside one of its cities, it is a 'member' of the AP.
If it does not have the AP religion as its state religion, it is called a voting member, and it gets one vote for every population point in each city with the AP religion in it.
If it does have the AP religion as its state religion, it is called a full member, and it gets 2 votes for every population point in each city with the AP religion in it.

The part about self-voting I put in because when the second patch for BtS came out, it disabled diplo/religious victory votes if you had more than 3/4 of all possible votes. You could get around this by being a 'voting member' until the turn of the actual vote, then vote for yourself and change your state religion to the AP religion, thus doubling your votes at that point.

I haven't played BtS in ages however, so I don't know what is in this new patch, or if it fixed/changed that aspect of it or not.

As for your opponent, it will be however has the most number of votes and is a full member of the AP...if no one else is a full member, then you have no opponent but you don't necessarily win because they can still abstain their votes.

 

[erikthecelt]

Self voting bug was corrected in the last patch. You must have at least one AI vote for you to win, you may not have enough votes to win yourself or the option does not come up.

2 possible city sites. #2 (yellow) is a good gp farm and has 2 fish, clams, cows, gold and and marble. I think the marble island is bigger than 2 squares and we could build a fort to get the marble bonus. If we are on an island, a second city to the west is possible.



for tech, I prefer fishing but AH is acceptable. To keep the worker occupied AH should be followed by BW and wheel. I prefer food to hammers for starting REX although hammer bonus for workers is helpful after we have built the first settler.

 

[The-Hawk]

The yellow city would be a pretty awesome GP farm (run 7 specialists assuming we can keep them happy). On the other hand, I'm not a big fan of using the capital as a GP farm. Allocating citizens to specialist roles really detracts from the power of Bureaucracy. I think I still like the original spot better, maybe with a later city sitting right on the marble as a GP farm.

 

[Harbourboy]

I am almost certain that the new patch removed the self-voting loophole (which was a complete sham anyway).

So you do need to:
a) be a reasonable size so we get a big chunk of votes to start off with
b) have some friends vote for us as well.

The major difference between Diplo and Religious is that we can, to a certain extent, impact the voting power of the other AIs by controlling the spread of the apostolic faith. This is why Christianity is a good target faith as:
a) it comes late so nobody will have it yet
b) it coincides with the ability to build Apostolic Palace
c) you get a free missionary to kick start the process

The main problem comes if you spread the religion to one AI too early and they go nuts spreading it around themselves and get too many votes.

 

[AgedOne]

Thanks, everyone, for your points on religious victories. I feel better educated and more able to think about this one strategically now.

I suppose there is a big part of the strategy that is identical to getting a UN victory - building up your 'allies' attitudes towards you to something like +10, by trading, having common enemies, religions. The common religion should be a given, except for voting members who haven't adopted the AP religion.

The big difference will be this thing about controlling the spread of your chosen religion. As Harbourboy points out, the problem is uncontrolled spreading by someone who uses it for their own purposes rather than ours. (swines!) Does anyone have any background info on who is most likely to do this, or who we can trust to not spread it like wildfire?

 

[Harbourboy]

The key is trying to spread your religion to one city per AI as simultaneously as possible. This is made difficult by the limitation on the number of missionaries and the long distances they may have to travel to reach the most distant AI.

 

[AgedOne]

The key is trying to spread your religion to one city per AI as simultaneously as possible. This is made difficult by the limitation on the number of missionaries and the long distances they may have to travel to reach the most distant AI.

Oh wow. Do you mean the tactical approach goes something like this:

1. Reach Theology and found christianity
2. Build 7 missionaries and send them to wait outside of a different AI small city each
3. Build the 99% of the AP
4. Just before completion, walk the 7 missionaries into the cities and convert.
5. Same turn, finish the AP

 

[erikthecelt]

There is a 3 missionary limit. #2 does not exist.

 

[AgedOne]

There is a 3 missionary limit. #2 does not exist.

Ohh. So there really isn't a way to arrange simultaneous spread to more than 3 AI.
I suppose the closest arrangement is to spread to 3 of those furthest travel-time away first, and 3 closer ones as soon as missionaries can be built again. If you timed that right, you could do it with a delay of only about 10-15 turns (depending how close nearest civs are).
That means 10-15 turns where they can be spreading your religion unscrupulously!

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Reading the runes it looks as though there is general agreement to settle in place, build a worker first and tech AH & BW in that order. Worker to pasture cows and then mine the gold. Scout to confirm that we are on a peninsula and if any land nearby and then scout towards the east. Capital to build warrior/scout after worker?

If there is general agreement (posts rather than silence please) on the above then I'll play 20 turns this evening otherwise I'll wait until tomorrow evening.

 

[markh]

Reading the runes it looks as though there is general agreement to settle in place, build a worker first and tech AH & BW in that order. Worker to pasture cows and then mine the gold. Scout to confirm that we are on a peninsula and if any land nearby and then scout towards the east. Capital to build warrior/scout after worker?

Sounds good.

I would not build a scout after the worker. I would just build warrior(s). Scouts die too easily against barbs.

 

[AgedOne]

Reading the runes it looks as though there is general agreement to settle in place, build a worker first and tech AH & BW in that order. Worker to pasture cows and then mine the gold. Scout to confirm that we are on a peninsula and if any land nearby and then scout towards the east. Capital to build warrior/scout after worker?

I think that sounds like a fair plan for session 1.

I would also agree with markh that warrior rather than scout for the next build. Not necessarily because they die against barbs (no barbs for 50 turns) but because our original scout may well be able to explore quite comfortably on his own.

(interestingly, in practice games, my original scout popped scouts from huts about 50% of the time! Of course, in the real game, many huts may have been removed...)