SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[Sam_Yeager]

Let the great second city debate begin.

A few comments/queries:

• Do we actually want a second city at this point? Since Misotu's lovely detailed plan shows one I suspect the answer is yes but it's worth asking the question.
• What do we want this city to do in the short and long term? 1N of the pigs which seems popular with several team members may well be fine for a science city in the short term and an eventual commerce/science city in the longer term. However production will definitely be limited.
• If we 're thinking about war with Shaka then Yaso will pretty much be our only option for military production if we go for the northern city. Should we be looking build a more production oriented city such a 1N of the pigs in the SW?
• The game's suggestion of 2N of the pigs is a non starter since there is far too much overlap with Yaso's BFC not to mention the loss of the forest.

EDIT: It's just occurred to me that we'll need Wheel before we can build any military units other than warriors in any case.

 

[Misotu]

The warrior is a place holder BUT the capital is empty and Shaka can see that. One warrior is too far away from the city to help as an escort.

Of course - for some reason I thought we already had 3 warriors, sorry. Looks like warrior next then

PS - I am liking the math bulb - very tempting.

Well, rather than thinking of it as bulbing maths we could think of it as a double-bulb - maths and civil service

Seriously though, with Shaka just over the way early military action is looking necessary. And there's nothing like a serious production capital running bureaucracy for an early-ish rush. So I think we should give it our best shot, and consider the bulb. The probability of a scientist is over 90% - if we get the priest we switch from CoL to maths for the enhanced chop value, then back to CoL and carry on, hoping for the best. We lose nothing.

I think, with the settler built, we must go for a second city. The pigs site would do it - 1 good food resource, 1 forest to chop the library, no health problems from jungle and then a second worker to help chop the Oracle if we decide to do the bulb & need extra chopping power. If we planted it on the desert square to the west of the pig, from what I can see of the map, the first cultural expansion would mean we controlled the coast line all the way round from the capital and the borders would join up. But do we need to control the sea round the coast too, or is the land enough, for the cities to trade?

 

[Harbourboy]

Who is doing the next turns?

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I think, with the settler built, we must go for a second city. The pigs site would do it - 1 good food resource, 1 forest to chop the library, no health problems from jungle and then a second worker to help chop the Oracle if we decide to do the bulb & need extra chopping power. If we planted it on the desert square to the west of the pig, from what I can see of the map, the first cultural expansion would mean we controlled the coast line all the way round from the capital and the borders would join up. But do we need to control the sea round the coast too, or is the land enough, for the cities to trade?

I was thinking of 1N of the pigs. However 1W of the pigs does convert the desert square into a 2F square meaning that our BFC would only have one totally useless square. Equally it would avoid the BFC overlap that many dislike. Presumably the chopped library is to help the slingshot?

@erik - We might as well keep our warrior near Shaka's lands. Once Writing is in we can probably get an OB to scout his lands. It would be good to know if he can build Impis.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Who is doing the next turns?

I assume erik will play some more turns as he's only played 12 turns so far. However perhaps he's willing to pass the baton over to you HB.

 

[Misotu]

I was thinking of 1N of the pigs. However 1W of the pigs does convert the desert square into a 2F square meaning that our BFC would only have one totally useless square. Equally it would avoid the BFC overlap that many dislike. Presumably the chopped library is to help the slingshot?

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

We need to wait for The-Hawk, MarkH and Thrallia I think. This point in the game is a bit pivotal (Serious British Understatement Warning - I add that note just for clarity )

 

[Sam_Yeager]

We need to wait for The-Hawk, MarkH and Thrallia I think. This point in the game is a bit pivotal (Serious British Understatement Warning - I add that note just for clarity )

It's a shame that it needs to be spelled out nowadays.

 

[Harbourboy]

Hmm, not so much debate today. Keen to see the rest of the input on that next city. I like the 1W spot as well, but I am not usually good at making these optimum decisions.

 

[markh]

I am not sure which site to claim first for our second city. I think I would start with 1N of the cows. The cows are junglefree aren't they, so we can pasture the cows ? A southern city would be better for chopping, though. For the southern city I would go with 1W of the cows to get rid of one desert tile.

 

[Misotu]

I would like 1N of the cows too, just from the point of view of getting to 2 scientists & a library. There are more than enough forests there for chopping. But then I wondered whether the unhealthiness from the jungle might negate the advantage of the food resources? And if we chop any of those forests, the jungle will expand into the empty grassland.

So although I initially thought cow, I think I'm coming round to the idea of the pig - I'd just like to know whether the cities will trade ...

 

[markh]

For coastal trading we will need sailing and I am not 100%, but all coastal tiles have to be covered by our cultural borders. Sailing and The Wheel are scheduled after the slingshot IIRC, so both sites might not trade with the capital for a while.

 

[Misotu]

No, you can trade along the coast without wheel or sailing - I've proved that in my test game. It works when both cities are on the coast, their cultural boundaries meet and there is clear coast between them. This means that, given correct positioning, our second city will trade with the capital as soon as its cultural boundary expands - which is just a few turns, given that we are cultural. If we can get them trading, our research rate will increase from 80% to 90%, so its worth considering. What I don't know is whether it's sufficient to control the coastal land squares, or whether you also need to control the coastal sea squares within the cultural boundaries.

 

[markh]

No, you can trade along the coast without wheel or sailing - I've proved that in my test game.

Never observed this, so the coastal trading with sailing enables you to get trading routes with AIs obviously. Still I am unsure whether the coastal tiles have to be in your cultural borders.

 

[erikthecelt]

Cows or Pigs - I am inclined towards the cows because the clams come into play earlier for growth. I think we chop for warrior,wb,wb in Yas then the second city can contribute to our commerce.

The warrior has room to go around Shaka's territory so I propose to keep moving west.

 

[Harbourboy]

I am happy with 1N of cows or 1W of pigs.

 

[AgedOne]

The decision over city 2 is a tough one, but when I examine it closely, I get:
Cow site
Pro:

• Two resources visible - cattle, clams
• Coastal, but not too much sea
• Will trade with capital soon
• Forest (x2) in BFC
• Fresh water in BFC
• Strategically, expanding towards Shaka is good

Con:

• Jungle that cannot be chopped until IW, with resulting poor health

Pig site
Pro:

• 1 resource visible - pigs
• Coastal
• Will trade with capital soon
• Possibly a sea resource currently hidden

Con:

• Excess of sea tiles
• No fresh water
• Does not capture land towards our enemy. Could fill this in later.

So overall, I'd go for the Cows. The only downside is the jungle, and one day we'll be able to chop that, revealing a fine city.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

The decision over city 2 is a tough one, but when I examine it closely, I get:

<snip interesting pros and cons>

So overall, I'd go for the Cows. The only downside is the jungle, and one day we'll be able to chop that, revealing a fine city.

Apart from the fact that I think your pros and cons should have looked at production capability as well I think this a very useful post.

 

[AgedOne]

Apart from the fact that I think your pros and cons should have looked at production capability as well I think this a very useful post.

I'm glad you liked the bits I did put in there.
For the bits I didn't, you need someone who hadn't just come in from work with a headache

[One of these days we ought to get all of the Geezers to take a personality-type test, so we can get an idea of who makes up our team. For my part, I know that tiny details cause me pain, while overall patterns and general chat & jokes suit me fine. I'm pretty sure we have some here who revel in the exhaustive details. That all goes towards the make-up of a well-rounded team. Then we need some 'Leader' types, and some who are really good at presentation and communicating.]

 

[Misotu]

Ooo-er a personality test ... you have me reeling. Do you work in marketing or corporate management???

But it would be fun I would like to argue with the results :snurkle:
Anyway, yes, your stuff is absolutely on the button. But you know, in order to make the final decision (and in the continued absence of Thrallia & The-Hawk) we don't yet know:

What will be the impact of health from the jungle on the cows city (which will impact growth, which will impact our 2-scientist-liibrary-second-city)

and ...

we don't yet know for sure whether the pigs city will trade (which will impact 80% or 90% research with 100% for a few turns)

Now - I've just submitted a hall of fame game (which makes me happy ) and although our test map is now starting to drive me bananas the minute I look at it, I am willing to volunteer to test all this out, if possible, and if no other kind person will volunteer since, like I said, I can barely stand looking at it right now

: pleading:

 

[Harbourboy]

We could put everyone through the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, the most thoroughly tested personaility preference test in the world. I already know I'm an INTP, which probably isn't the best for this sort of game - we might need to have a few more Js and Ss on the team.