SGOTM 08 - Smurkz

[Niklas]

Alright, I've finally updated the first page with a roster and some turnlog links. I took a queue from Erkon's book and added some quick details from each turnset, since I myself enjoyed reading that in the MW thread last game.

Here's the current Roster:

• Backwards Logic - UP!
• Methos - On Deck!
• Xcalibrator - Warming up
• r_rolo1
• Niklas
• Renata - Just played
• unkle - advisor mode
• ChrisShaffer - advisor mode

All according to Smurkz tradition (order of sign-in).

 

[r_rolo1]

My friends, I discovered new land

Spoiler :

I love flying camera

 

[Niklas]

Wow, that's simply brilliant! Sweet, we have land to the south!

Now all we need is for someone to go down there...

 

[Xcalibrator]

Wow, never heard of that trick. One might even consider it an exploit if you stared at it hard enough to separate all the tiles. Should we ask AlanH if that's allowed? I doubt there's much advantage to be gained from the effort, but in the meantime I'm reminded of that line from Little Big Man: "Ah shall avert ma eyes."

 

[r_rolo1]

Ok, updated version of the WB file. This is turn 0, because I can't make half filled food queues in WB and Niklas agreed to shadow his and Renata turns to make a proper test save

 

[Renata]

Even the bear?

@XCalibrator -- I'm about 99.99999% certain this is allowed. GOTM doesn't outlaw very much. But by all means feel free to ask AlanH about it for an official answer.

 

[r_rolo1]

Niklas asked ( better, begged ) me to not put the bear

 

[Methos]

One might even consider it an exploit if you stared at it hard enough to separate all the tiles. Should we ask AlanH if that's allowed?

I believe it is allowed too, but just to make sure I PM'ed AlanH about it. No sense in finding out later that it is a problem.

 

[r_rolo1]

Niklas asked me to drop here the test game, because he has to walk the dog

P.S there is a issue with score in here. My map is being carved in solid grassland, so it has a lot of land tiles. That brings down the territory contribuiton to score.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Been gazing at the Progress page culture graph more. Both Fifth Element and Bumpkins have that jog, which seems to indicate they revolted for a turn, right? It's too early to switch to Slavery, so it must be religion, right? (But wouldn't that give them an extra culture per turn? Hmm, well, indulge me.) Which means they met somebody other than Shaka, and it's too early for boats so it must have been by land. The fogged area where the bear got our scout doesn't seem likely as a civ starting spot, so I strongly suspect the 2 other teams sent their scout to the SW and found somebody, somebody who'd already founded a religion by around turn 13 so they must have started with Mysticism. Possibilities are Arabia, Aztecs, Byzantines, Celts, Holy Romans, Incans, Indians, Koreans, Mayans, and Spanish. Or might settling in place somehow change things? Can't see how offhand.

 

[Methos]

Remember, the graph only takes into account the data at the save point and it does not reflect the data by turn. More then likely they uploaded the save at the curve point.

 

[Renata]

Is it possible to get myst/poly in 13 turns from that start? Because I'm thinking that both teams may have gambled (and gambled correctly) that Gyathaar would pick opponents that made it possible to found one of the early religions even starting without mysticism. In our game, Hinduism wasn't founded until turn 16. Neither team has a high enough power to possess bronze-working, and I don't believe that religions can spread without trade routes, so even if they met someone with a religion, the odds of that other team also researching sailing, and there being a clear path, and the religion spreading, and it happening on the same turn for both teams ... Not likely.

(Of course, if it's impossible to get myst/poly that fast, forget this.)

It's an interesting path those teams are taking, if that's the case. They sacrifice so much at the beginning.

 

[r_rolo1]

For religions to spread, it has to exist a possible trade route from the source city to the target city ( not necessarily the other way around ). Unless they popped sailing from a hut and the hypotetical civ started coastal, it is simply impossible to spread religion to their capital from a AI this soon.

 

[Renata]

Well, Izzy starts with fishing and mysticism, and will always go after meditation, so maybe it's possible ...

But probably not.

 

[Methos]

That would imply that there is only one civ that started with Myst. I heard back from AlanH and my impression was it is currently allowed.

 

[Niklas]

If you settle in place and work the gold from the start, it is possible to get Myst+Med in 16 turns. That's the absolute theoretical fastest research you could get to a religion. Getting to Poly instead means 19 turns. So no - they didn't adopt a religion.

I'm actually currently most inclined to believe it's a glitch with the upload system. It's just too weird otherwise.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

That flying camera thing is pretty sweet.

 

[Renata]

I'm playing with the spreadsheet a bit now ...

Where do we want our second city? The spot 3W 1NW of the capital is tempting. It would be able to use the capital's clams, and after expansion would grab the elephants and a cow of its own. (It wouldn't need to steal cows from the capital to work all its hills, and it could probably even give the clams back at some point.) We'd need iron-working if we settle that site, but on the plus side, we'd have jumbos to use much earlier than if we settled anywhere else because there is nowhere else out in that general direction that's remotely tempting to settle in the short term. It's also on a hill -- helpful for defense on what will probably be our front lines for quite some time.

However, it also has large negatives compared to 3W: no copper, and much lower medium-to-long term production. Also fewer forests to chop, and more jungle, and no fresh water. And 3W would get the elephants, too, actually; given how much we have to research before iron-working, there might not even be a delay.

Another potential site is 2SW 1W, which could use one fish from the capital to get itself up and running, and which could use the copper tile. There is no other food, though, which would hurt the capital, and no elephants, and it's also not on fresh water.

 

[Xcalibrator]

It would be a waste not to have the copper in a BFC and I don't think we can go wrong with settling 3W, but it would be nice to see what's in the fog to the NW and SW. If there are resources, particularly food, it would strengthen the case for settling 4W1N and 4W3S, for example.

We need the ivory for ballistas AND for happiness, but how big is the rush? As Renata said, maybe waiting 50 turns wouldn't be a problem. We'll be whipping pretty often in the capital (and perhaps unable to grow large enough to take advantage of the extra happiness) until we start on a big wonder and have/want to let the pop get as big as possible. True, the 2nd city will have a lower happy cap than the capital, but it will also grow more slowly without such an abundance of food.

Longer term, 1W of the jungle lake (or maybe 1SW to get the health bonuses and an extra trade from a harbor, plus a lighthouse to get an extra food on the lake to partially make up for the lost cow) looks like a fantastic place for a GP farm. We could start out with cottages for the commerce and then later farm everything for late-game GP production. With the 1 extra food from farms once we get Biology it would be a monster, and we should have a good supply of health resources by then. I think it's too risky to build that far out for quite awhile, but we should keep it in mind when thinking about when/where to build the National Epic--probably want to build it in the capital, though, to get the benefits early.

Defensively we'll be in pretty good shape with ballistas and axemen if we can pick our ground, but we're going to need a pretty big tech lead before we take on Shaka.

[Edit: Can we give him our fish yet?]

 

[ChrisShaffer]

We can't trade resources until we have a trade route - perhaps when we get sailing.