SGOTM 08 - Smurkz

[Renata]

I don't know if we really do want our opponents building tons of wonders! At least, whatever ones we can get without derailing our other plans, we probably should, because fewer AI cities with wonders means more flexibility for us in the end game.

But in any case: I'm now trying to install Windows on my brand-spanking-new hard drive, so wish me luck! (Although I'm already a wee bit worried that it's been sitting at "setup will complete approximately: 33 minutes" for about the last five minutes ... )

 

[Niklas]

Ok, I finally got around to updating the new sheet with current research numbers. This is not exact with regards to the new town (will be settled on T105), but I've tried to make corrections for it. It seems to me that if we shut of research for one more turn, we could have Construction on T105 and then complete Drama on T108. We'd probably have to run another turn at 0% research after that, which would mean HBR on T112, could be sped up to T111 if we really need it.

If these turn numbers seem low compared with our current research, it's because we will increase our research output by a bit over 40% next turn, with the completion of the GLib and hiring another scientist.

 

[unkle]

I also support going after Shaka, mainly because we want Ulundi as soon as possible, and also because he can become a threat.
For that we need Cats, axes (or better) and Phants. How much units we can get should give us the amount of damage we'll do to him, but I'd suggest full war !

Given that we are in BtS we could also use spies to get the cultural defense down (in main cities), saving some turns in the process (a tempo issue for a fast war).

Getting the troops ready we need Construction/HBR asap depending on which troop type we want. I think HBR make sense if we think we can get stables down fast.

NE is surely higher priority than troops in Yo!, and getting the stone site is a 50/50 for me. I would like it quickly, but not at the expense of a large delay in fighting

 

[Niklas]

I had some quick fun calculating how much score we will gain over the next 10 turns. I was pleased to find that it will end up somewhere above 100. So yes, we were behind for a long time, but now the strength of our strategy is finally starting to come into play.

I'll work a bit on the spreadsheets during the evening. Expect a proposal from me later tonight.

BL, how goes your installation woes?

 

[Xcalibrator]

You're probably planning to, but may I suggest dropping a second worker on the stone city when we ferry over the settler? There's a lot of improving to be done there with a stone quarry, sheep pasture, mines, roads... One could also send a galley with another settler later on (bound for the marble or other site) and pick up one of the workers. Among other advantages, a faster stone hookup means we could get going on the Hanging Gardens sooner, if we choose to do that.

 

[Niklas]

Good thinking on the worker, I actually hadn't thought of that. We clearly have more to improve on the island than we do at home.

Regarding the HG, I would give up on them. If we want to go after Shaka now-ish, which we seem to have a quorum for, we don't have time for all that many wonders, and despite the nice bonuses of HG I would rate both Parthenon and AW as a lot more crucial.

Actually, the more I think about it the more I believe Parthenon is really crucial to us if we want to generate GPs from any other towns than the capitol. So unless we build AW in the capitol, we really need Parthenon somewhere. We still have some time, but it is obsoleted with Scientific Method so if we want it to make a difference then the sooner the better (doh).

 

[Renata]

My repair of our desktop computer is (finally) coming along nicely, though there's still a ton of software to re-install, most of which gets higher priority than CIV. (Heresy, I know ... ) But in any case, I can certainly play after BL if that's ok with everyone.

 

[Niklas]

Definitely ok, glad to have you back in business!

I promised a proposal, but so far I've been trapped fixing bugs in the new sheet when porting the data for Hari and Harapura. I now have everything in order up to turn 100, bugs fixed, but I'm not sure how much more I can put on it tonight. So expect a proposal from me tomorrow. That's not to say that you lot should sit back and wait - please propose some concrete build sequences for the next 20-odd turns, so we have something to work with.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Yay, Renata's nearly back in the saddle!

I haven't even opened the save to check the status of things, but here are some mostly obvious thoughts on the build plan: In Harapura, if we don't have them already, build barracks. Then Hari and Harapura build enough axes and spears so that we have 2 spears and 2 axes garrisoned in each of our 2 western cities plus another 2 spears and 3 axes ready to deal with trouble/attack. We'll also want another settler for the marble site (or maybe on the isthmus if not already claimed). I'm guessing our southern galley will hit a dead end and make his way back north in time to be useful, but...

Meanwhile on Stone Island (shall we call the new city Rockport ?) let's have the city start with a granary until the stone quarry is ready, then switch to AW but whip the granary when we hit pop 2 (although we'll probably need to put in a couple more turns on the granary to get it close enough). That'll help our pop grow faster and get more tiles' hammers contributing to AW. After AW I suggest the Moai--the extra hammers will come in handy and it's inevitable that we'll be working a lot of sea tiles in this city before long. Maoi also contribute 1 Prophet GPP, consistent with our plans to make this our Great Prophet city. Maybe we'll want to build another settler before the Maoi to settle the NE site on this island.

(Agggh. Time to give the younger one her bath. Maybe more later...)

 

[Niklas]

Agreed about the Barracks, but I'm not so sure about the Spears. We have one Spear, and could build at least two more with good warning if Shaka decides to go after us. But Elephants are much better than Spears in that niche, killing mounties, and would eat Axes and Archers for breakfast too. Impis too if we can give them Shock. So IMO, the less Spears we build, the less wasted hammers.

Regarding Rockport thumbsup, we'd have to calculate on AW, but I think it's a good idea. Definitely agree with whipping a Granary. But Moai I'm less sure about, this town will be a GP farm for probably the whole game and will grow slowly and work few coastal tiles. It's definitely an option to build it here, but I'm wondering if perhaps Harapura isn't a better place for it? That's a town where we are both likely to work coastal tiles, and want to boost our production.

Off for bed, but keep the thoughts coming!

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Do any of the national wonders expire? I concur with Niklas that Harapura would be a better place for Moai, but to be honest I'm not a fan of Moai at all. imho, the primary reason to build it is the points for the unique victory conditions of this game. Most of the time, I don't build it at all.

In general, I argue for a strategy that sees us building the national wonders at the end of the game, when our conquering armies are on the march.

 

[unkle]

Another reason to do so (delaying national wonders which are not that useful for us now) is that we could use Kremlin+US to hurry most of the wonders. At the end of the game it is very likely that we'll have either most of our cities building wealth (thos not building wonders that is) or the slider around 100% wealth.

I think there is a penalty for wonder (cash)rushing, Kremlin should mitigate it somehow.

 

[Renata]

I don't know; I think it's too early to assume we'll be 0% research for an extended period at the end of the game. It really depends on how the timing of everything works out. We're going to be juggling a lot of balls in the air: building wonders, completing the research to enable them, maybe finishing up wars ... But still, Kremlin certainly has the potential to be very useful.

Are we definitely set on AW in "Rockport"? A city by the marble would be clearly superior as a GP farm even if it would be vulnerable out there on the other side of Shaka. What would we use that city for, if not GPs?

 

[unkle]

I agree that getting on 0% research is not likely. Yet, if we go conquest/dom, very likely we'll want most of our cities either on wealth or on research, while having the slider moved. Getting money and rushing seems a possible option with the Kremlin, at the end of the game that is at least if we go with Conquest/Domination, we'll need to keep track of the end game, to not miss a wonder by a turn or two).

I am not very keen on Moai, huge investment for a slow return usually, especially in a GP city, where what matters is food and food only).

 

[Renata]

I'd argue for Moai in the stone city only if we do not intend to build AW there.

 

[Backwards Logic]

Alright, I've given up on trying to get the Mod to work on Vista. As such, I have the save loaded on my computer, but it does not have internet. Therefore, any screenshots you'll want during my turnset will be rather slow.

My opinion regarding a few things:

I think Angkor Wat should be built in our stone city, after a granary is built/whipped/whatever. This city likely will not contribute to us militarily, as any units built here would need to be ferried over. With that in mind, I think building Angkor Wat here would suit it fine. With Sheep and the Clams, the city can run (assuming working only the two food sources) 2 priest specialists with 1 food extra. We could always grow the city to starvation to run the third specialist if we wanted to.

As for settling near Shaka, I think overall while it may sound like a good idea, I fear the maintenance costs for running this city will stifle our economy so much that we could not fund a larger army to invade. Seeing as we already have all of the resources the 1N marble site offers, and we already have a solid GP pool in Yo!, I don't see much of a benefit to settling this site, if only to block Shaka. I think the resources would be much better spent on creating a large army and using it to steamroll Shaka. At some point we have to go to war, and delaying the inevitable only helps Shaka, as he can catch up technologically via AI trades.

For wonders, I say once Parthenon and Angkor Wat are finished, we let the AI build the rest for us. On national wonders, I vote to build them in our core cites once we establish a second military production area (i.e Shaka's lands). Delaying them doesn't make any sense, especially considering how powerful they can be.

On founding Taoism: Yes, I agree we should do it, but in my experience the newest city tends to get the Holy Site. I would hold off on settling the stone site until we have bulbed it - otherwise a) the missionary gets stuck over there until we can ferry it over, and b) the city will not ever be a good commerce site, so a Holy City there is not ideal. Again, back to the national wonders, Wall Street + Shrine = lots o' money. A city with a few mature cottages, Wall Street, and a shrine can pretty much fund our entire war machine. All of our current 3 cities would be ideal for that.

While I can't play immediately, I can if we are all in agreement on what to do play in the next few hours. Of course I would never play on my own, so pretty much whenever a bunch of us is online is a good time for me.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Whenever we settle Rockport, we'll want to have a workboat ready to net the fish after the 1st border pop; the fish can be online immediately, while it'll take awhile to pasture the sheep--we want to starting growing fast ASAP.

 

[Niklas]

BL: You're counting a bit wrong. Clams (5F with LH) plus grassland Sheep (5F) would allow us to run 4 specialists without starving. So yes, the Stone city is definitely going to be a decent GP farm.

The only issue is getting that AW built (500 hammers, but +100%). This site is very shield poor, having only three 3H tiles to work (Stone, 2x desert Hill). There's also two forests to chop, leaving 380 hammers to be completed manually. We should be able to grow very quickly to size 5 after Granary, at which point we can work Clams+Sheep and the three 3H tiles for 10 hpt. That's 19 turns to complete the AW - not too shabby actually.

On founding Taoism - the article Xc linked to shows clearly that settling order has no bearing on which city gets the holy site. The only things that affect the computation are 1) the capitol won't get it, 2) having many religions in the town makes the chances lower, and 3) bigger chance the more population the town has. I could dig up the code and calculate the precise chances if you like, but I believe the odds are stacked well enough in the favor of our mainland towns to warrant settling as soon as possible.

The big question to me is - where to build Parthenon? We probably have until the late 150s before an AI will build it. One option is to let our Stone city build Parthenon. If we chop the forests, it would take 14 turns at 10 hpt to complete it. We could then build Angkor Wat in 25 turns. We won't have any competition for the latter. It would slightly pollute the GProphet gene pool in Roqueport though.

I still want the marble city south of Shaka as a GP farm - can't have too many of them, especially not with our rather specialized strategy. But we don't need to use it for Prophets, it could be used for a mixture later on to get those corporations. I'm fine with waiting to settle until we have Ulundi firmly in hand.

 

[Niklas]

What would we build in Yo! after NE completes?

 

[r_rolo1]

^Military Items?