SGOTM 08 - Trash Team

[chopster]

My vote for settling on the cows is not based on the benefits for the capital whatsoever, but rather for being able to actually use the hills we can see, by feeding a second city to the west - what if there is no food resource out there? We get left with a city that can only work two tiles because there's no growth.

I know we're working with incomplete information, but I feel that although KM's test was quite valuable, I don't think it takes the whole picture in to account.

Also if Remco is right in his guess about the inland sea, no fish is a pretty big loss for a large part of the game.



Anyway, the consensus is settling in place, which I fell will definitely be a solid start regardless. We should definitely focus on micro more this game, it really helped us improve in the last one, and should push us further forward in this one.

I don't have any complaints with pigswill's PPP, but I'll have a bit of a play with potential ideas this afternoon.

 

[ese-aSH]

T0 Settle in place.
T1-3. Build warrior, work cows. food 9/22), warrior : 3h
(Border pop!)
T4-15.Build worker. Work forest plains hill.
T16-19. Build WB, work cows --> food 21/22F, WB : 4H
T20 Build WB, work gold. food 0/24 (size 2). WB : 6h.
T21 - 28 : build WB, work gold, cows. food 8/24. WB : 31/30
T29-30 : build Warrior, work cows, clams, --> food 18/24, Warrior : 3h

total commerce from tiles : 10 * 6 + 1 * 2 = 62C

Agree with that :
One variant :
tech fishing (6 turns ?)
T1-3. Build warrior, work cows --> food 9/22, warrior : 3H
T4-6. Build worker. Work forest plains hill --> worker : 15h
T7-14 Build WB. Work forest plains hill (2H overflow)
T15-19 : build warrior, work clams --> food 3/24 (size 2), warrior : 9h
T20-24 : build worker work clams , plain forest hill --> worker out 0 overflow
T25-29 : build warrior work clams, cows --> food 1/26 (size 3), warrior : 14h
(mine gold meanwhile)
T30 : build warior work clams, gold, cows --> food 5/26, warior 17/15

total comemrce from tiles : 15 * 2 + 1 * 6 = 36

 

[pigswill]

Yet another option for the second set would be worker chops forest towards WB, building WB much earlier and working clams+gold earlier (or clams + cows for faster growth etc). It becomes a more complex calculation trying to work out if its more efficient to use chops for WB or settler or Oracle or something else. Priorities will depend on what we discover about the neighborhood from initial exploration.

Its kind of like the settle-on-cows debate: if we can get a workboat to southern fish easily then its a different calculation to if we can't work the fish. At the moment we just don't know. I think its better to make plans on the basis of (limited) current information than speculation. Gyathaar will surely have altered the map and we can expect the unexpected which makes it even more difficult to speculate.

 

[ese-aSH]

the time to get Fishing, then BW is ~ 20 turns.


so ok we have diffrent options now :
- tech BW, fishing
Completly build worker first, then warrior and chop WB ASAP (pre chop with the worker)
- tech fishing first (then AH / BW)
Start worker, switch to WB asap, then finish worker

Im a bit lazy to check which start is the best

Also Remember we also need 2 WB just for exploration. the sooner we now the land the better.

 

[pigswill]

Quick calc going worker>WB>worker. We get WB on T14. By T20 we have 51H towards the worker. We gain 12 commerce from working clams. Assuming we work plains hill to get WB asap we're pop 1 with 0 food. It gets better afterwards coz by T22 we have a worker and we're working clams for 4F/2C. By T27 we've got the gold mine and clams and grown to pop2.

I think we're marginally better going with my plan because we start working the goldmine 7 turns earlier and we could go for plainsforest+goldmine for 5H/turn getting WB out on T26 giving us pop2, clams and goldmine but with an extra 40 beakers.(edit: actually 30 beakers because you've got the mine at T20 but don't have the clams).

 

[stuge]

Quick calc going worker>WB>worker. We get WB on T14. By T20 we have 51H towards the worker. We gain 12 commerce from working clams. Assuming we work plains hill to get WB asap we're pop 1 with 0 food. It gets better afterwards coz by T22 we have a worker and we're working clams for 4F/2C. By T27 we've got the gold mine and clams and grown to pop2.

I think we're marginally better going with my plan because we start working the goldmine 7 turns earlier and we could go for plainsforest+goldmine for 5H/turn getting WB out on T26 giving us pop2, clams and goldmine but with an extra 40 beakers.(edit: actually 30 beakers because you've got the mine at T20 but don't have the clams).

Gah. I took my time to work that out and then you go and post the figures first.

Screw you.

 

[pigswill]

Stuge: I'm sorry .

Life's a lady-dog .

 

[pigswill]

Time to play....

More or less according to plan.

Builds as PPP.

We've got a worker. We've got a goldmine. We're building a WB.

BW in next turn.

The worker is south of the city ready to chop next turn or move to unforested grassland hill as the team decide.

Standard Buddhism fidl 3680, Hinduism fidl 3360.

Haven't met any civs.

In 3640 the scout met a panther..... (That's the bit that wasn't part of my PPP).

Here's a copy of the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/Trash_Team_SG008_BC3200_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[KingMorgan]

Should have settled on the cows... only j/king.

Not liking the jungle, but the ivory opens up some possibliities.

Stupid Panther should have been in a Zoo.

 

[remconius]

Good stuff, Pigs', glad I was wrong

Interesting isles down south.
Good to see ivory for our unique unit.
Nice extra fish and pig, we need more exploration.
Chances are that we are isolated

Roster
-Pigswill
-cripp7 (UP)
-Remconius (on deck)
-ese-aSH
-jadex
-Blastoidstalker
-Stuge
-KingMorgan
-chopster

 

[pigswill]

Hmmm. If we'd settled on the cows we wouldn't have been able to put a doublefish city on top of the marble .

 

[cripp7]

so what's next on the reasearch/build list? chop WB, start myst.

 

[chopster]

Looking at the map the best city sites may have been 2E ad 2W of starting location.

I sure hope there is some food to the east, as wes there is food and no production, west seems to be hills with no food.

Two early happys help a nice bit though.

 

[ese-aSH]

Land is poor in food :/

I think you need +3 WB : 1 for the fish, 2 for explo/Fog busting

tech AH/sailing, then mysticsm, if we want to go for oracle we should ideally settle on marble first (sailing unlocks moais, the marble city with 2 fish will be able to whip early infra -granary, library, lighthouse- and then build the moai.)

other city sites :

2N of the pigs
1NE of the gold.

 

[remconius]

We also need a new explorer on land.

so what's next on the reasearch/build list? chop WB, start myst.

Cripp, I see you started making a PPP

Make sure you can open the save, and post a "GOT IT" so we know you are up. The next step is to agree on a PPP for the next turnset. Turnsets are typically around 10 turns, but early in the game not much happens so turnsets can be longer. The best is to define a milestone around 15-20 turns from the current point to mark the end of your turnset.

 

[pigswill]

Don't reckon we need mysticism straight away, assuming we go for second city before a wonder (Oracle?) then we need the settler (and warrior(s)) first. I'd reckon we go for AH next for three reasons: work the cow sooner (because we can ), make pigs available for a city, look for horses as we ain't found any copper in the immediate vicinity.

ese-aSH: to use marble city for Oracle we need sailing and masonry in addition to myst, med, PH, writing. We also need a galley. That's quite a bit extra compared to a city on dry land and I'm not sure if its justified. It might be worth further analysis though.

 

[pigswill]

Speculation

We haven't met another AI yet and its 3200bc. Wouldn't it be interesting if we were on a small (jungle covered) continent with thousands of barbarians while the larger continent was filled with peaceful techniks and wonderholics (Gandhi, MM, Ramses etc).

That would be worth at least one difficulty level.

 

[remconius]

Copper will be known in 1 turn. I propose Cripp picks up the save, presses enter, saves before proceeding and posts a screenie to show where the copper is. Do we agree?

Wouldnt a double-fish/marble city be perfect for Great Prophet farm?

Intersting, yet scary, speculation Pigs' :O

 

[stuge]

I agree with ese-ash on the workboats. For land exploration we should build a warrior. It'll be slower than a scout, but will have more staying power when fogbusting.

For tech I say AH next. Perhaps the Wheel after that so we can hook up the gold. Builds workboat-> warrior-> warrior-> settler? No time to work out the numbers now.

 

[ese-aSH]

look the screenshots : core island seems to stop N, it will be quite easy to fogbust (lets say 2 warriors + 1 WB)

@pigs : you are right, building marble city as 2nd city cost us sailing + mac as aditionnal techs (why writing ?), but this would allow us to go to PH via polytheism and therefore get closer to OR (we plan to found confu dont we ? so we need OR asap).

copper is not so imoprtant if the core isalnd is small enough to be fogbusted : we wont axe rush anyone and barbs wont be an issue.

I still think AH/sailing is a good path : capital should be able to build 1WB (send explo S, then grab the fish), 1 warrior (to complete main island explo) + 1 additionnal worker (2 chop faster than 1), then galley / settler.

we have a least 6 forests to be chopped (riverside and mines). this means 120h pre math or 180h post math. We have to choose carefully what we chop and when.