SGOTM 08 - Trash Team

I seem to be working from a different set of assumptions to other people in the team. My view is that we should have prioritised Oracle asap. Getting the techs (sailing, masonry) and the galley to put a city on the marble will certainly save us hammers but costs us turns. Losing the Oracle would get us a refund and we'd have a galley earlier than otherwise but I'm not convinced these would be as much benefit as a CoL slingshot towards CS and philo.
 
I tend to agree, after galley (in progress), settler and build marble city. Meanwhile get Oracle techs and build it.
 
Cripp, when you save the game, please do so when the "Press enter to for next turn" is in screen. Dont press enter and then save.

No biggie, but as I was looking around the save I could not resist moving the workboat.....

Look what I saw:

Spoiler :
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Marble city is next!


 

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Another point is that we need a settler on cow/rice connecting tile fast to cut off Shaka from our side.

So I propose we do the following:

Techs:
Masonry (6)
Myst(4)
Medi (7)
Priesthood(5)
Total (22)

Builds capital:
Finish Galley (5)
Settler (8)
Warrior (1)
Settler (8)
Total (22)

Build city 2:
workboat
workboat
warrior

After 22 turns, I'll hand over to the next player for the Oracle.

To optimize we can do the following.
Masonry last so we can start oracle 6 turns earlier.
And we send first settler to close off Shaka and second settler on Marble. First Settler will build city 1W of Rice.
With Masonry and city on marble we'll have instant quarry Just in Time.
 
In my experience unless you have Marble in the capitial or 3rd ring then it;s unlikely that it helps with the oracle build.

I like the idea of blocking, but can we afford the hit in terms of research, IW is a long way off, and can we defend that city from barbs with only warriors? Let alone hold it against Shaka? It's basically a dead city without chopping the jungle. Unimproved cows can only take us so far. Cultural pressure from the capital may also play a part, although CRE helps us in this case, Shaka has a 60 turn headstart on equal culture per turn.

I've checked the save @turn 44 and personally i'd be axe rushing Shaka. (This comes from a Builder) We may only take his capitial before having to take peace, but i'd much prefer to have to block/defend the capital rather than the site 1W of the rice. If we axe rush we will lose the oracal and it may be very hard to get it back, but in the meantime what trouble could Shaka cause us? Bear in mind the majority of our land is usless till IW.

I see 2 decent citys, Cap and Pigs. I don't rate the marble city, early game hammers = power. I have doubts about even settling it early.

If we must settle a 2nd site then it should be the Pigs, i guess most of the team would insist on a 2nd city before even comptemplating a Rush. Connect Gold and Copper, build a settler and warrior for the pigs (if we must)
chop the plains, mine. Work them, then at 6 population;
17 Hammers - Axeman every 2 turns
13 Food = 1 surplus
note: 7 turns till whip unhappiness finishes
Change immeadlity to a Barracks, the 20 hammers from the plains chop, 20 more from a forest = 40/50 barrack hammers overlow to Axe. 1 axe per 2 turns.

Roughly;

10 turns = barracks and 1 axe
20 turns = barracks and 6 axe
26 turns = barracks and 9 axes

39 turns = 9 CR1 axes outside Shakas Capital, within the 13 movement turns we could have built the pigs city and have 1/2 a settler and a galley standing by for transportation to the marble site.

Advantages of rush.

Our land is limited for an early REX - jungle,
we will have only the capital with good hammer production - we could build 2 cities that can work 2 mines each = 6/7 hammers per turn, with forest maybe 9 hamm/turn max barely adquate in my view.
Neighbour of Shaka - unpredictable, he will DoW, the later on in the game he does, the longer it takes to gain peace the more disadvantge we suffer.
We gain a capital site.
More land to settle & easier access past the choke point. - Worst case we can settle the area south of his capital without issues
Potenial to conquer more cities

Disavantages

We lose the oracle - possiblly a religion and quick access to courthouse.
It could go wrong and we are setback a thousand years.
If we only take the capital and shaka lives, he will hate us for a long time.

Summary

We have lost S/H and GW unless we chop them both asap, if we lose the Oracle then potenially we have 2 AIs to invade. The land we have is not good enough, both in terms of the terrain and the amount. At some point we will need to invade Shaka, (on this point i think we can all agree). Our available land is just too small and production poor. Shaka will spam units quickly, the later we leave it the harder it will become. If we are planning to build the majority of wonders ourselves we need a second production city. The only decent production city I see is Pigs coupled with Maori Statues, Shakas captial would be a huge boost to our early empire, riverside grassland and minimum 3 hills, it would make a fine 2nd production city even before Leeves and watermills. As it stands there are no calender resources nearby, but i bet there are some in Shakas territory.

If you have copper in your BFC and a nearby dangerous neighbour what do you do in your offline games?
 
If Shaka has copper, rushing is impossible. He's annoying to rush anyway, because he'll at least have a lot of CG1 archers. So I'd say no to a rush. There may be islands around us to colonize and I'd rather not miss out on the Oracle. With the capital's gold IW would be fairly quick to research. I'm not saying that we shouldn't prepare for war against the Zulus. We have ivory, so an attack is feasible up until Shaka gets gunpowder units.

Let's focus on getting that marble city, the Oracle and aiming for TGL. Three fishes=6-8 specialists. And all we need is caste system and a lighthouse.
 
I haven't opened the save but from the screenshots I'm guessing that Shaka is a long way from us, at least the other side of rice/cows. That's way too far to even consider an early rush. Depending on circumstances a /catephant rush may be an option.

In the more immediate future them big green spaces is going to mean barbs, and plenty of them. I reckon that the way to proceed is to settle pig/hill site and get some axes from there asap and park them on some hills (preferably forested) to stop us from getting overrun.

Meanwhile leave masonry for now. We don't need it for Oracle and we'll have time to get marble city and masonry before we get to lit forGlib.

Techwise myst>med>ph>writing.

Buildwise settler>warrior>finish galley>axe>Oracle.
 
Cripp, when you save the game, please do so when the "Press enter to for next turn" is in screen. Dont press enter and then save.

No biggie, but as I was looking around the save I could not resist moving the workboat.....

Notes taken, trying to axe rush Shaka early is a good idea, however, we would lose the Oracle. Looking back, I probably should have started Myst instead of Sailing first to try to get a jump on Stonehenge.
Cripp
 
Good comments!

No block city and no axe rush is my take.

My focus will be on settling pig city (2N of Pig) and getting ready to build Oracle.

Techs:
Myst (4) > Medi (7) > PH (5)

Builds:
Warrior (3 inline with growth)
Settler (7/8)
Finish Galley (6)
Oracle

City 2 will be built 2N of Pigs and will focus on Axes and barracks.
 
My focus will be on settling pig city (2N of Pig) and getting ready to build Oracle.

Techs:
Myst (4) > Medi (7) > PH (5)

Builds:
Warrior (3 inline with growth)
Settler (7/8)
Finish Galley (6)
Oracle

City 2 will be built 2N of Pigs and will focus on Axes and barracks.

Sound good to me. what's the 1st build for city 2?
 
Shaka is Aggressive and if he has copper, he's likely to have built barracks as well (UB) so axe vs axe is simply suicide.

I'd consider taking him out early, but would definitely prefer the ELEPULT theory to do so.
However, the two techs (HBR and Construction) are off the course of where we seem to be heading research wise.
 
First build will be barracks I suppose for city 2, probably assisted by a chop.

After we have our Great Prophet farm set up, we should focus on getting Jumbo's organized. They can do serious damage against Shaka until and even after he get Longbows.

Of course chances are that our religion (Confucianism or Christianity) spreads to Shaka and we all just get along.
 
Barracks-> axes seems good for the second city.
 
I assumed he was talking about Ballista Elephants and Catapults... Both needing construction and available earlier than Macemen.
 
Do we need such an overlap on the pigs city? we seem to be stealing alot of tiles from the capital. Would a 3rd city to take ivory and cows not be better? Considering we need HBR and CONS for 'phants there seems to be no huge rush to connect.

Other than that PPP seems ok.
 
What about happiness from Ivory.

If we have less overlap from capital, we gain nothing but ocean tiles or desert I think. City 2 can work pigs and as many mines as possible.

Or so you see a better spot?
 
Not much point working ocean and desert, that's for sure. Equally relevant is where we put the elephant/cow city. That will probably be the deciding factor in placing pig hill city.

Edit. Maybe pig city 1 north of pigs. It gets two desert but the water tiles appear to be coastal. It also means we can work pigs and hills without waiting for culture to pop borders.
 
Ok, will most likely play tomorrow. Time keeps catching up with me...

At least the next steps are agreed! :)
 
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