SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[ShannonCT]

With Vijay just one tile off the coast, I don't see why we would need to use a spy. We can land 3 trebs SE of Vijay and bomb it down to 0% in one turn. Another possible use of the spy is to pillage Gandhi's iron when we declare on him. No iron, no pikemen.

I notice Boudica doesn't need our iron even though there is none within her borders. I guess she is getting some from her vassal Charlemagne. I think we should ship a Cuirassier through India ASAP so we can pillage that iron on the turn we start war with Boudica. Nuremburg would be a good first city for our slow units to take.

Putting all our spy points on Gandhi for the sake of being able to see what he's building sounds good.

 

[ShannonCT]

We won’t learn much about Augustus without some significant investment. Could he hurt us much with spies?

He doesn't have Optics yet so he can't ship any spies to our home continent yet. More likely he will harrass our newly captured cities on his continent (poisoning water, destroying cottages, etc). As long as he doesn't pillage all of our horses at once, I don't see much of a threat there.

Regarding the need for a galleon quickly out of Ulundi, if we get one in three turns it will set sail the same turn that Lagos comes out of anarchy and would be in place to move units in 4 turns. We could get a galleon chopped in Lagos a bit quicker, but there are other good uses for those hammers, such as a wonder or frigates. SCT, in calculating the need for more gold in 16 turns, are you factoring in a GA from the TAJ? The three turn slow down shouldn’t set us back many turns on a GM.

Ok, how about this: put 3 merchants on mines for 2 turns in Ulundi to get the galleon in 2 turns. We lose 54 GPPs. If we can get Taj built in 10 turns, we'll get an extra 58 GPPs in the first 2 turns of the GA, so we'd still get a GP in 12 turns. After galleon, go back to a slow build of Wat.

Lagos can build a worker instead of a galleon.

We'll need one more theater somewhere to build Globe in Furville. But I'll leave that to the next player.

Fur and crabs are, of course, resources we already have, so extorting them is not a great benefit except for trading.

Gandhi needs fur and crab. We could get his sugar and spice for them. Joao hasn't hooked the crabs yet though...

I’m having trouble projecting where we’ll be in about 30 turns, when a second GM could be created in Ulundi. There may be no one to establish a trade route with. Reiterate leif’s question of the possibility and profitability of a trade route with a vassal. If we don’t think there will be a good use for a second GM from Ulundi, perhaps a theater is not the best use of the city – rather, we could finish the WAT (still have 85 hammers invested in that). Would the extra hammer from priests be of any benefit?

Yes you can do a trade mission with a vassal.

Getting a GM in 30 turns wouldn't be of much use unless to found another corp. The hammers we could get from the GM by cash rushing can't compare with the hammers we can get from mines and workshops (during a golden age no less) for 25-30 turns in Ulundi. I think we should therefore start turning Ulundi into a hammer city after its next GP is born. Marbleville and X-ville can still get one more GP each.

Not clear on the logic of a forge in Lisbon and not in Oporto.

How about that Oporto can build wonders with resource bonuses (ND) and Lisbon can build wonders without them (Broadway). A forge gives a much smaller bonus when building a wonder with a resource.

Regarding Conquest vs Dom’n, wondering if there is a need to decide now. It would be informative to see how quickly we are able to conquer Celtic cities, how soon capitulation is offered, and how opposing militaries are ramped up. Can airships be used to pillage strategic resource improvements?

Airships can't pillage resources.

There's a value in the XML for each leader called iVassalPowerModifier that is supposed to modify the amount of extra power required by the human to convince the AI to capitulate. The numbers for our AI are:

Augustus: 20
Boudica: 10
Charlemagne: 10
Gandhi: -20
Pericles: 0

The higher the number, the more power advantage we need before getting capitulation. So Augustus is tricky because he's already the strongest AI, and he's the least likely to capitulate.

 

[Cactus Pete]

With Vijay just one tile off the coast, I don't see why we would need to use a spy. We can land 3 trebs SE of Vijay and bomb it down to 0% in one turn. Another possible use of the spy is to pillage Gandhi's iron when we declare on him. No iron, no pikemen. Yes.

I notice Boudica doesn't need our iron even though there is none within her borders. I guess she is getting some from her vassal Charlemagne. I think we should ship a Cuirassier through India ASAP so we can pillage that iron on the turn we start war with Boudica. Nuremburg would be a good first city for our slow units to take. Concur.

Putting all our spy points on Gandhi for the sake of being able to see what he's building sounds good.

Should we devote some commerce there now, so we don't start to build a duplicate wonder?

 

[Cactus Pete]

He doesn't have Optics yet so he can't ship any spies to our home continent yet. That's what I thought, and, by the time he gets Optics, we can have frigates available to minimize the infiltration once war starts.

Ok, how about this: put 3 merchants on mines for 2 turns in Ulundi to get the galleon in 2 turns. We lose 54 GPPs. If we can get Taj built in 10 turns, we'll get an extra 58 GPPs in the first 2 turns of the GA, so we'd still get a GP in 12 turns. After galleon, go back to a slow build of Wat. Sounds good, but would like us to at least consider the relative merit of instead generating a GArtist in Ulundi (after the GM) that would be able to create a great work of art and speed Dom'n. In fact, I wonder how many turns such an artwork might save and whether using the GA we already have on that, rather than on another wonder, would be wise. How many turns would we need to save to get a better ratio with one less wonder?

Lagos can build a worker instead of a galleon. If there are readily available workers in Joao's remaining cities, then a frigate perhaps instead.

We'll need one more theater somewhere to build Globe in Furville. But I'll leave that to the next player. How gracious of you.

Gandhi needs fur and crab. We could get his sugar and spice for them. Joao hasn't hooked the crabs yet though... Well, then, there would need to be more than one worker available to forego that (those) trade(s).

Yes you can do a trade mission with a vassal. And what percentage of the usual haul do you get?

Getting a GM in 30 turns wouldn't be of much use unless to found another corp. The hammers we could get from the GM by cash rushing can't compare with the hammers we can get from mines and workshops (during a golden age no less) for 25-30 turns in Ulundi. I think we should therefore start turning Ulundi into a hammer city after its next GP is born. Marbleville and X-ville can still get one more GP each. On a recurring theme, what about one of those being a GArtist?

How about that Oporto can build wonders with resource bonuses (ND) and Lisbon can build wonders without them (Broadway). A forge gives a much smaller bonus when building a wonder with a resource. You mean in terms of turns-to-completion saved?

Airships can't pillage resources. Hence your plans to pillage by other means.

There's a value in the XML for each leader called iVassalPowerModifier that is supposed to modify the amount of extra power required by the human to convince the AI to capitulate. The numbers for our AI are:

Augustus: 20
Boudica: 10
Charlemagne: 10
Gandhi: -20
Pericles: 0

The higher the number, the more power advantage we need before getting capitulation. So Augustus is tricky because he's already the strongest AI, and he's the least likely to capitulate.

Then we need to presume that we would have to win a Dom'n victory without his capitulation (and probably without Rome ever getting out of anarchy). What was Joao's number? Need to check what percentage of land is Caesar's.

If the Communism civic voids distance maintenance, and presuming the off-continent colony maintenance still applies, then doesn't a FP on the other continent have merit?

 

[ShannonCT]

Should we devote some commerce there now, so we don't start to build a duplicate wonder?

I think we want to keep ND on our continent to get the 2 happiness in our most important cities. That only leaves Wat for wonders that we can both build. Ulundi wont be putting many more hammers into Wat until after the GM is born, so we can hold off on diverting any commerce to EPs right now. We'll get pretty close to the needed EPs with just the Palace and courthouses.

Sounds good, but would like us to at least consider the relative merit of instead generating a GArtist in Ulundi (after the GM) that would be able to create a great work of art and speed Dom'n. In fact, I wonder how many turns such an artwork might save and whether using the GA we already have on that, rather than on another wonder, would be wise. How many turns would we need to save to get a better ratio with one less wonder?

Ulundi has very high production potential with Guilds/Chem/Communism that would be very costly to miss out on. Wouldn't a more effective way to grab more land be to turn up the culture slider at the end of the game? That will let many cities grab more tiles, rather than just one city. We can certainly hold on to the GA until the end. There's no rush in founding CivJewelers since it will have no effect under State Property.

If there are readily available workers in Joao's remaining cities, then a frigate perhaps instead.

That would work too.

Well, then, there would need to be more than one worker available to forego that (those) trade(s).

OK, I'll make the call based on that criteria.

And what percentage of the usual haul do you get?

Shouldn't be any difference. Of course, if it's a small city with no harbor, it will be worth quite a bit less.

You mean in terms of turns-to-completion saved?

Yes, forge + Broadway finishes faster than just Broadway. Forge + ND doesn't finish faster than just ND.

Then we need to presume that we would have to win a Dom'n victory without his capitulation (and probably without Rome ever getting out of anarchy). What was Joao's number?

Joao was 0.

If the Communism civic voids distance maintenance, and presuming the off-continent colony maintenance still applies, then doesn't a FP on the other continent have merit?

I don't know how this works. I'll do more research.

Edit: State Property eliminates Colony maintenance in addition to distance maintenance.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think we want to keep ND on our continent to get the 2 happiness in our most important cities. That only leaves Wat for wonders that we can both build. Ulundi wont be putting many more hammers into Wat until after the GM is born, so we can hold off on diverting any commerce to EPs right now. We'll get pretty close to the needed EPs with just the Palace and courthouses. Okay.

Ulundi has very high production potential with Guilds/Chem/Communism that would be very costly to miss out on. Wouldn't a more effective way to grab more land be to turn up the culture slider at the end of the game? That may be what we end up doing, but it does not get a city out of anarchy and/or get expanded land (several percentage points) in one turn.That will let many cities grab more tiles, rather than just one city. We can certainly hold on to the GA until the end. There's no rush in founding CivJewelers since it will have no effect under State Property.

That would work too. OK, I'll make the call based on that criteria. Also to be considered is the state of defense and the time and possible losses it would take to raze the city.

Shouldn't be any difference. Of course, if it's a small city with no harbor, it will be worth quite a bit less. That's good to know.

Yes, forge + Broadway finishes faster than just Broadway. Forge + ND doesn't finish faster than just ND. Understood.

Joao was 0. Then 40% will be the exception. Does this make it wise to attack India later?

I don't know how this works. I'll do more research.

Edit: State Property eliminates Colony maintenance in addition to distance maintenance.

Okay, FP in Braga. Appreciate your research.

 

[Mad Professor]

Me again. Leif, you are just having too much fun

Keep up the good work, friends. India still looks juicy!

 

[Cactus Pete]

Me again. Leif, you are just having too much fun Don't be absurd, MP, this is difficult, demanding, stressful work that is undertaken only with great sacrifice.

Keep up the good work, friends. India still looks juicy!

Can't help but note the contrast with India in RL right now. Hope things are stable where you are traveling.

 

[ShannonCT]

Pre-play plan for turns 175-185

Cities

Marbleville - wealth
X-ville - Cuirs
Ivoryville - trebs, Cuirs
Pigville - Hermitage
Stoneville - galleon->airship
Canalville - galleon->worker->worker
Ulundi - galleon->Wat (work 3 mines for 2 turns)
Horseville - Cuirs (grow in 2 turns)
Jute - stable->airship->airship (fire spy)
Furville - Taj->theater
Braga - courthouse->airships
Oporto - courthouse->NotreDame
Coimbra - worker
Lagos - worker->frigate
Lisbon - forge->Broadway
Evora - worker
Guimaraes - airships


Espionage

Put all EPs on Gandhi. Ship spy overseas.


Techs

Physics - Chemistry (partial bulb) - Electricity - Liberalism -Radio (free)


Units

GM completes trade misson to Delhi. Scout checks out Boudica. Cuir checks out remaining Portugese cities. One Cuir and all slow units shipped overseas, move toward Nuremburg. Galleon from Ulundi helps. Remaining Cuirs in Portugal heal in Braga and head east by land and sea. Galleon from Canalville helps. Land units at Bibracte (and Gergovia?) when we have enough. Upgrade caravel to frigate to protect landing.


Diplomacy

Make Joao our vassal when we have nothing left to gain from fighting. Adjust trades to get more gpt and happiness resources. Sell map to everyone. Declare war on Boudica/Charlemagne when scouting reveals we are strong enough.


Workers

Two workers chop Taj in Furville. The rest build workshops at X-ville, Ulundi, Jute, Furville, Braga, Oporto, Lisbon, and Guimaraes.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sounds good. Couple queries:

Are you planning to build a worker in Lagos regardless of what's in Joao's cities?

What happened to the FP ASAP in Braga?

 

[ShannonCT]

Are you planning to build a worker in Lagos regardless of what's in Joao's cities?

That could be cancelled if we can capture another worker or two.

What happened to the FP ASAP in Braga?

Well, what is your opinion on going for Communism immediately after Radio and before MM? If we can adopt State Property just 3-4 turns after we can complete the FP, the FP doesn't get much use and could be built later. State Property renders FP useless.

 

[leif erikson]

Plan looks good.

Well, what is your opinion on going for Communism immediately after Radio and before MM? If we can adopt State Property just 3-4 turns after we can complete the FP, the FP doesn't get much use and could be built later. State Property renders FP useless.

I agree with this. Airships are needed to move against Boudica.

Land units at Bibracte (and Gergovia?) when we have enough. Upgrade caravel to frigate to protect landing.

I think we agreed to keep our options open and hit Boudica hard, so Gergovia will accomplish that as we move our forces west to east and can be in position to visit Gandhi next. If we wish to vassalize her quickly, then perhaps Tolosa.

May the RNG Gods be with you.
Good luck.

 

[Cactus Pete]

That could be cancelled if we can capture another worker or two. Fine.

Well, what is your opinion on going for Communism immediately after Radio and before MM? If we can adopt State Property just 3-4 turns after we can complete the FP, the FP doesn't get much use and could be built later. State Property renders FP useless.

Unfortunately, I lack an opinion as to the utility of airships. If you and leif think they willl be more helpful, that's good enough for me.

Hope rrau will check in. For my part, play when ready. Be particularly interested in your report on diplomatic reaction.

 

[leif erikson]

Me again. Leif, you are just having too much fun

Keep up the good work, friends. India still looks juicy!

Hope you are well MP. Nice to hear from you.

We'll do our best to bring India home for you...

 

[ShannonCT]

Unfortunately, I lack an opinion as to the utility of airships. If you and leif think they willl be more helpful, that's good enough for me.

Hope rrau will check in. For my part, play when ready. Be particularly interested in your report on diplomatic reaction.

I was wondering more about your opinion on going for Communism before MM. If we do that, there isn't any reason to rush the FP.

I'll start tonight with the first few turns and then report back on the state of Boudica's defenses.

 

[ShannonCT]

I started with some moves on Turn 175. Will continue after dinner date with the wife.

Turn 175
Sell maps to everyone. Cancel wine deal with Boudica and sell her rice for 9 gpt. Did we want to sell marble to Augustus also?
All EPs on Gandhi.
Scout Joao and Boudica. No workers spotted in Portugal. His western ice city defended by 2 LBs (I thought I took a screenshot but can't find it now). Boudica's Tolosa has 2 LBs, 2 gallic warriors, 2 axes.
MM cities
Move Cuirs toward Braga
Switch Coimbra to worker
I upgrade the archer in Stoneville to a X-bow to include in the invasion. Marbleville's border pop will fogbust soon and the other archer can return to Stoneville.

Any objections to vassalizing Joao now?

 

[leif erikson]

I started with some moves on Turn 175. Will continue after dinner date with the wife.

Hope you enjoy your dinner.

Any objections to vassalizing Joao now?

None from here.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Did we want to sell marble to Augustus also? I couldn't think of a reason not to. Is there a wonder that we don't want him to build that marble facilitates?

Any objections to vassalizing Joao now?

No, seems the thing to do, and then acquire and trade his furs as you proposed.

If we delay FP, won't our number-of-cities maintenance increase even with Communism civic?

 

[leif erikson]

If we delay FP, won't our number-of-cities maintenance increase even with Communism civic?

Your question caused me to do some reading, and I was interested in what I found. Curious Cat's Strategy Article on Maintenance.

From what I read, upkeep is calculated using two factors, number of cities and distance from a seat of government (Palace, Forbidden Palace and Versailles) The distance from a seat of government is distance maintenance. The number of cities maintenance is based on, well, your number of cities.

Courthouses half city upkeep (maintenance), both number of cities and distance. The seats of government seem to affect distance maintenance. So delaying the FP does not appear to affect the number of cities maintenance.

What was more interesting is cutting distance maintenance by the use of rings, like we used to do in Civ3 vanilla. I need to read more to confirm this, but it would be an interesting development...

Does this square with your understanding SCT?

EDIT - Forgot to add that if you look under the Financial Advisor screen, our current Number of Cities Maintenance is 31 gpt. Our current Distance Maintenance is 93 gpt, so 75% of our maintenance is distance maintenance. Bring on State Property...

 

[ShannonCT]

Does this square with your understanding SCT?

EDIT - Forgot to add that if you look under the Financial Advisor screen, our current Number of Cities Maintenance is 31 gpt. Our current Distance Maintenance is 93 gpt, so 75% of our maintenance is distance maintenance. Bring on State Property...

Yes, FP doesn't help with Number of Cities maintenance, not even in the FP city.

Continuing play now...