SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[leif erikson]

My test was on WS, with Kremlin already built. Kremlin increases whipping yield.

Got it!

 

[Cactus Pete]

Looking at Fred's build plan, the last thing built (in 14 turns) is Globe after a settler in Canalville. If it develops that we will not need all those settlers, perhaps we should build Globe and forget that settler. This leads me to ask where the "5 settlers in current plan" are, as only 3 are listed in the build order.

Concur that going to wealth builds where possible is a powerful way to keep our research up (get 100% in BTS), and reiterate that pillaging towns and villages should be highly remunerative as well.

Do we switch to slavery as soon as our GPerson arrives?

 

[ShannonCT]

Globe can be whipped on the second to last turn so we could still build a settler.

I think we only really need slavery for whipping hospitals and then whipping wonders on the turn before victory. Remember caste system is giving all workshops an extra hammer, and that Fred's build times probably assume those hammers.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Globe can be whipped on the second to last turn so we could still build a settler. Okay.

I think we only really need slavery for whipping hospitals and then whipping wonders on the turn before victory. Remember caste system is giving all workshops an extra hammer, and that Fred's build times probably assume those hammers.

Was thinking we might whip some additional cuirs near Rome if the SOD doesn't cooperate, but forgot about added Caste hammer, and we almost certainly need the extra hammers.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Made a few minor corrections to the build plan on the previous page:

- Only 3 settlers in the plan
- We build wealth in homeland cities
- Ivoryville set to build wb's from now on
- The plan covers at least 5 turns in most cities.

leif, I don't think Pigville is suitable for building a settler since he will come rather late. According to the plan our 3 settlers are available 7 turns from now so that we have at least 5 turns to settle cities and move the Prophet to Hun. Do we know for sure that he will appear in X-ville?

And yes, my build plan assumes that we stay in caste until the last minute. I'm not even sure if I have taken the end of the golden age properly into account in all cities. So we will probably need to review the plan as the game progresses.

 

[ShannonCT]

I was doing some analysis on our economy today (our pretend Civ4 economy, not our real economy). Our current gold-beaker conversion rate is 1.35. That is, for every additional 1 gold we earn, our beaker bonus buildings can convert this gold into 1.35 beakers.

So when MMing a city, and deciding between scientists or merchants, a city should choose the specialist that maximizes the function = bpt + 1.35*gpt. For instance, Pigville is correct to be running a scientist now, because its buildings give a 1.5 beaker multiplier and a 1.0 gold multiplier. However, when it finishes its bank, it will be optimal to change to merchants (including an extra 1 instead of coast). Marbleville should switch to scientists right away. It has a 1.5 beaker multiplier and wont build a bank. (The only exception to this is X-ville, which should try to maximize its chances of getting a GM. After getting a GP, it should switch to scientists).

Another interesting MM point is whether to use a citizen to work a mine/workshop for building wealth, or whether to use that citizen as a merchant. Building wealth is subject to hammer multiplier (forge, state property, ironworks) but not gold multipliers. Again, we want to choose the citizen allocation that maximizes the function = bpt + 1.35*gpt

The other thing I was playing around with was how to run at 100% science. If we set enough of our cities to building wealth, we can actually get in the green at 100% research. And if we ran 100% research for the rest of the game, we could finish the remaining techs, including Refrig, in 12 turns; we could go for victory in 13 turns, which times well with completing UN in 6 turns.

After a city has completed its required builds (units, wonders, etc), it should be set to produce wealth. Except the three cannons, no more military units are needed from our home continent. I also see some units (longbows, Xbows, airships) queued up in some of our new cities that aren't going to be much use. Losing Prague to Pericles or Augustus is unlikely if we station 2 LBs and a Cuir there. We have surplus airships that can't be used against Cumae, Rome, or Antium, so we can use them to pin down Greek and Roman forces around Prague. And if we by some turn of events lost Prague, so what? It doesn't have a wonder, and we already have enough votes with our vassals (+Gandhi) to win the diplo vote. If the situation on the ground is favorable, we can turn all of our new cities to building wealth.

 

[ShannonCT]

Gergovia, Camul, and Florence don't need MPs. They can move their MPs up to Prague-Aachen now and remain unguarded.

Now that we are a couple turns away from declaring on Augustus, we can start gifting our vassals the prereqs for military techs. Philosophy-Nationalism for Military Tradition. Education for Gunpowder. Optics for Astronomy. We should also give some resources to our vassals. For instance, Boudica could upgrade/build knights and pikes if she had our excess horses and iron.

Right before we declare on Augustus/Pericles, we can sell them Printing Press.

 

[ShannonCT]

Other ways to earn gold:

1. Chop the two forests north of Ivoryville so the workboat overflow is bigger.

2. In Aachen, chop 5 forests (and whip 1 pop if possible) into walls. We're getting a 160% bonus for building walls in Aachen. Gold overflow will be 400-500.

3. After Rock and Roll, set Ulundi to build wealth for 2 turns.

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work on the analysis of builds and our (game) economy!

I am thinking that it might be wise to play the completion of the current turn and the next turn, to the capitulation of Gandhi. Then we can see what cities we get out of it and figure out where we are. Does anyone know what the chances are of Gandhi capitulating to Augustus? They are at +6 and pleased with each other.

I intend to change the builds (cannons, etc.) and add the Merchants in X-ville along with checking the other great people as outlined in the thread by everyone.

After Democracy, next tech is Biology. Goal is to keep research as high as possible using techniques outlined by SCT.

Besides taking Gandhi's two cities, movement of troops to the Vijay area and Airships to Vijay, Delhi and Prague. Four Galleons to the Lagos area and two from near Pataliputra to Calcutta and then Delhi. Move enough of our forces to the Vijay area for attacking Rome and defeating the stack in Arpinum.

One question is do we want a separate stack that can head for Rome? It could be built from Maces and Seige weapons in the western areas and form up on the jungle hill 3-tiles north and one tile NE of Bombay and then have a five turn march to Rome?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Like idea of leif playing turn and a half and then pausing for further discussion.

Probably want to move the airship in Lagos to Antium this turn and then on to Vijay before we declare war next turn.

If we can win in 12 turns, will we be able to get Globe built by then (not sure precisely what "second to last turn" means) and get the settlers built and settled and the resulting GP to Hun by then?

Query: A unit in a city attacked by an airship heals IBT, but does it do so if it moves IBT? If not, we can exploit this when moving our units into place.

Regarding seperate stack to head for Rome, let's see if we can induce SOD out of Antium (and gain a bit more intel in other places) before trying anything else. Re-posting this, as there were neither comments nor alternative suggestions:

The greater problem is how to draw the stack out into a killing field. Suggest, the turn we declare war, we move two slightly wounded cuirs (still powerful enough to be a favorite against HAs) to the tile E of Vijay (which protects them from all but the chariot in Cumae [and they can pillage the tile for some much needed gold, which is something we should be able to do frequently as we move through Roman territory], then put the entire remainder of our wounded units and 4 airships in Vijay (again, sufficiently powerful to protect against any chariots or HAs that can get there in one turn but hopefully increasing the temptation to advance the stack toward Vijay), holding our healthy forces back out of sight on the tile SW of Vijay. Because our power rating is so high, this may not work, but it seems worth a try. If we can't draw the stack out, then suggest we advance on Cumae with multiple stacks, at least one cannon (not succeptible to collateral damage) in each stack.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Gergovia, Camul, and Florence don't need MPs. They can move their MPs up to Prague-Aachen now and remain unguarded.

This can be done if we are a little careful. Right now we should keep our MP's there because we are still at war with Gandhi and he has Galleons so it's possible for him to sail from the fog of war and capture an undefended city. If Augustus or Pericles get Astro we should also be cautious and have at least one defender in our coastal cities.

Right before we declare on Augustus/Pericles, we can sell them Printing Press.

Or even sooner if we run out of money.

2. In Aachen, chop 5 forests (and whip 1 pop if possible) into walls. We're getting a 160% bonus for building walls in Aachen. Gold overflow will be 400-500.

Do we have 5 workers available? I would prefer that we pre-chop to begin with so that we retain some flexibility. It may be important to chop a Hospital there and even though we have plenty of forests (9) we may not have enough workers available to chop all forests before the game is over.

I intend to change the builds (cannons, etc.) and add the Merchants in X-ville along with checking the other great people as outlined in the thread by everyone.

There may be several places where the current save doesn't match the plan. Please note that the best course is to hire the 2 extra merchants in X-villenext turn because that means that the bank is built one turn earlier and we get a few extra hammers.

I am thinking that it might be wise to play the completion of the current turn and the next turn, to the capitulation of Gandhi. Then we can see what cities we get out of it and figure out where we are.

Sounds good. Don't forget that the cuirs attacking Calcutta next turn should have the "Amphibious" promotion. There is one in Delhi and two in Vijay that can be promoted. And then there is a galleon with a cannon and a cuir that can be dropped off outside Calcutta this turn

 

[leif erikson]

Probably want to move the airship in Lagos to Antium this turn and then on to Vijay before we declare war next turn.

We will lose the services of this Airship fror the turn it moves. Since we want to be ready, perhaps if we move this Airship on to Prague?

We currently have 11 Airships. I plan to deploy 4 in Vijay, 4 in Delhi and 3 in Prague?

Regarding seperate stack to head for Rome, let's see if we can induce SOD out of Antium (and gain a bit more intel in other places) before trying anything else.

It will take several turns to form the stack as roads do not connect that tile? It is the closest tile to Rome that they do not control. The reason for the suggestion is that these CR3 units will not do much against Rome if we don't move them soon, unless we want to go after some of Pericles' cities?

Re-posting this, as there were neither comments nor alternative suggestions:
The greater problem is how to draw the stack out into a killing field. Suggest, the turn we declare war, we move two slightly wounded cuirs (still powerful enough to be a favorite against HAs) to the tile E of Vijay (which protects them from all but the chariot in Cumae [and they can pillage the tile for some much needed gold, which is something we should be able to do frequently as we move through Roman territory], then put the entire remainder of our wounded units and 4 airships in Vijay (again, sufficiently powerful to protect against any chariots or HAs that can get there in one turn but hopefully increasing the temptation to advance the stack toward Vijay), holding our healthy forces back out of sight on the tile SW of Vijay. Because our power rating is so high, this may not work, but it seems worth a try. If we can't draw the stack out, then suggest we advance on Cumae with multiple stacks, at least one cannon (not succeptible to collateral damage) in each stack.

Not sure how well it will work but it is worth a try? Placing those Cuirassier on the tile east of Vijay exposes them to the three Horse Archers and two Chariots that are in Arpinum as well as the Chariot in Cumae. Is this what you intended, to try to draw them all away?

This can be done if we are a little careful. Right now we should keep our MP's there because we are still at war with Gandhi and he has Galleons so it's possible for him to sail from the fog of war and capture an undefended city. If Augustus or Pericles get Astro we should also be cautious and have at least one defender in our coastal cities.

Camulodunum and Florence are one tile from the coast. If we leave a Cuirassier around to attack any landings and maintain the MP in Gergovia, would that be sufficient.

Or even sooner if we run out of money.

Do we have 5 workers available? I would prefer that we pre-chop to begin with so that we retain some flexibility. It may be important to chop a Hospital there and even though we have plenty of forests (9) we may not have enough workers available to chop all forests before the game is over.

There are exactly 5 Workers available on that continent. Per-chopping is OK with me, once they finish their current tasks.

There may be several places where the current save doesn't match the plan. Please note that the best course is to hire the 2 extra merchants in X-villenext turn because that means that the bank is built one turn earlier and we get a few extra hammers.

OK, thanks.

Sounds good. Don't forget that the cuirs attacking Calcutta next turn should have the "Amphibious" promotion. There is one in Delhi and two in Vijay that can be promoted. And then there is a galleon with a cannon and a cuir that can be dropped off outside Calcutta this turn

Try to play in about 5 hours from this post and get the save up before

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Placing those Cuirassier on the tile east of Vijay exposes them to the three Horse Archers and two Chariots that are in Arpinum as well as the Chariot in Cumae. Is this what you intended, to try to draw them all away?" Yes, it may cost us those two cuirs. Nearly all the units in Arpinium are attacking units with attacking promotions. My experience is that the AI will take most any opportunity to attack with such units (which, of course, we would prefer to Augustus defending Cumae with them), plus, the AI usually operates in a single-minded fashion (so, if he attacks with his mounted units, I'm thinking he's more likely to move the rest of his stack toward the same objective). The idea is to give him two reasons to move his entire stack toward Vijay, rather than to either stay put or go to Cumae, which he is more likely to do if we advance toward Cumae or put the cuirs 1NE of Vijay. Moreover, there seems to be an "inclination" for the AI to go after wounded units before most other objectives. Make sure you have enough of those in Vijay to hold the city and protect the airships for one turn against an all out mounted attack (though I think it more likely that the stack will move in unison).

 

[leif erikson]

"Placing those Cuirassier on the tile east of Vijay exposes them to the three Horse Archers and two Chariots that are in Arpinum as well as the Chariot in Cumae. Is this what you intended, to try to draw them all away?" Yes, it may cost us those two cuirs. Nearly all the units in Arpinium are attacking units with attacking promotions. My experience is that the AI will take most any opportunity to attack with such units (which, of course, we would prefer to Augustus defending Cumae with them), plus, the AI usually operates in a single-minded fashion (so, if he attacks with his mounted units, I'm thinking he's more likely to move the rest of his stack toward the same objective). The idea is to give him two reasons to move his entire stack toward Vijay, rather than to either stay put or go to Cumae, which he is more likely to do if we advance toward Cumae or put the cuirs 1NE of Vijay. Moreover, there seems to be an "inclination" for the AI to go after wounded units before most other objectives. Make sure you have enough of those in Vijay to hold the city and protect the airships.

OK, sounds good.

 

[ShannonCT]

If we can win in 12 turns, will we be able to get Globe built by then (not sure precisely what "second to last turn" means) and get the settlers built and settled and the resulting GP to Hun by then?

Globe is whippable right now (except that we're not in slavery), so we can build wealth there after settler if we want.

Query: A unit in a city attacked by an airship heals IBT, but does it do so if it moves IBT? If not, we can exploit this when moving our units into place.

A unit has to stay put to heal from airship bombing.

The greater problem is how to draw the stack out into a killing field. Suggest, the turn we declare war, we move two slightly wounded cuirs (still powerful enough to be a favorite against HAs) to the tile E of Vijay (which protects them from all but the chariot in Cumae [and they can pillage the tile for some much needed gold, which is something we should be able to do frequently as we move through Roman territory], then put the entire remainder of our wounded units and 4 airships in Vijay (again, sufficiently powerful to protect against any chariots or HAs that can get there in one turn but hopefully increasing the temptation to advance the stack toward Vijay), holding our healthy forces back out of sight on the tile SW of Vijay. Because our power rating is so high, this may not work, but it seems worth a try. If we can't draw the stack out, then suggest we advance on Cumae with multiple stacks, at least one cannon (not succeptible to collateral damage) in each stack.

I don't have any better ideas.

 

[ShannonCT]

This can be done if we are a little careful. Right now we should keep our MP's there because we are still at war with Gandhi and he has Galleons so it's possible for him to sail from the fog of war and capture an undefended city. If Augustus or Pericles get Astro we should also be cautious and have at least one defender in our coastal cities.

OK, so wait til next turn to move those units. Augustus's navy can be neutralized by our frigates and Pericles's navy by our galleons (until they are needed to deliver the Prophet).

 

[leif erikson]

Been playing. There is a Confucian Missionary in Aachen. Where was he intended to go?

 

[ShannonCT]

Been playing. There is a Confucian Missionary in Aachen. Where was he intended to go?

Looks like Tolosa is the best place for him.

 

[leif erikson]

Looks like Tolosa is the best place for him.

OK, that is where he goes.

Took Agra but lost a Cuirassier at 80%.
About to change turns... with sweaty palms...

 

[leif erikson]

We have a chance to pick off a couple of Gandhi's Workers before he Capitulates, shall we take them? They are located near Prague.

EDIT - I grabbed them.

Log thus far and save will be attached.
Turn 201 – 1410 AD continued
Let’s start by going through city builds and MM, only changes will be noted.
Ivoryville – change build to a Work Boat.
Marbleville – change Merchants to Scientists.
Furville – change citizen from Sheep to Plain Hill.
Braga – change production to Bank
Oporto – change to Cannon
Lisbon – change to Cannon
Lagos – change to Cannon
Bibracte – change Merchant to Scientist
Tolosa – change from LB to Wealth
Florence – change from LB to Wealth
That completes the check of our cities.

Next, let’s look at diplomacy and tech gifting:
Boudica is researching Gunpowder and has 7 turns remaining. What she needs is the path to Military Tradition, so we gift her Philosophy. She has Guilds but needs Horses and iron, so we gift her these as well. I also ask her to stop trading with Pericles and Augustus and give her Education to seal the deal.

Charlemagne is researching Guilds and has 4 turns remaining. He needs more stuff, so we gift him Philosophy and Education. He also requires Horses, so we gift him them as well.

Joao has Guilds as well, so I ask him to stop trading with Pericles and Augustus and he wants Theology, so we give it to him.

On to Military:
Bombard Calcutta with Frigates, reduce cultural defense from 20% to 0%.
Land Cannon and Cuirassier on the Horse tile near Calcutta. Send Galleon on toward Lagos.
Promote two Cuirassier in Vijay to Amphibious and load onto Galleon, move to Delhi and load another Amphibious Cuirassier and head for Calcutta.

With Airship in Nuremberg, attack LB in Agra and reduce him by 17%.
Promote Cuirassier to CBT4 and attack Agra LB at 87%, killing him, now at 7.7/12
Attack with another Cuirassier at 79.7% and die.
Attack with a Cuirassier at 99.7% and kill the Sword, take the city and 123 Gold. Install a new Governor.

Kill two Indian Cats near Bombay with no loss in HP.

Use Airship in Vijay to perform recon of the area around the city of Rome, perhaps we can see Antium as well? Recon results:
Antium contains three Cats with Barrage1 (one also has Barrage2), one CBT1 Pike, a Guer1LB, one CBT1 and Shock promoted Praet and one unpromoted Mace.
Rome contains one Barrage1 Cat, one Guer1LB, one CBT1 Praet and one CBT1 Mace.
Arretium contains one CG1 LB, one CBT1 LB and one CBT1 Xbow.
We can also see one CBT2 War Elephant and a CBT2 Horse Archer 1-tile west of Mediolanum, which is located ESE of Antium.
Move a Cuirassier next to Knossos and find it contains a CG1 LB and a CBT1 Sword and one Worker.
Spy move to the hill east of Cumae and can see Circei. It contains one CG2 LB, one CG1 LB, one CBT1 Praet and one Barrage1 Cat.
Move Galleon out of Arpinum to Lagos.
Find more islands to the north of X-ville, should we need them for Blessed Sea.

Forests are cleared and provide:
24 hammers to Furville.
30 hammers to Guimaraes.
30 hammers to Aachen.

Begin moving units toward Vijay and Airships to Delhi for use against Calcutta.
Move Airship from Lagos to Vijay.

IBT
A lot of movement in Roman territory.
Charlemagne comes calling and wants to trade Dye to us for Clams, OK by me.
We discover Democracy and start Biology.
Braga and Oporto asks to join the Portuguese empire? NO!
Pericles adopts Representation.
We complete a Bank, Work Boat, two Cuirassier and a LB.
No Capitulation for Gandhi with Augustus, good!

Turn 202 – 1420 AD
Right to Gandhi and Calcutta.
Attack Calcutta with three Airships and do 19%, 19% and 20% damage.
Cuirassier attacks at 96.7% and kills the LB, now at 10.1/12.
Cuirassier attacks off of Galleon at 96.7% and kills the LB, now at 0.5/12.
Cuirassier attacks of Galleon at 98% and kills the LB, taking Calcutta and 86 Gold. We install a Governor.
Capture two of Gandhi’s Workers near Prague.

Dial up Gandhi and offer terms. He wants to give us Madras again, WM and Capitulation. I ask for Lahore and he rejects our offer. No matter what I try, he will only give up Madras, so I accept it.
I think we should give Gandhi Iron.

Save game and post for discussion.
Please note Pericles’ units in the Aachen area.