SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[ShannonCT]

I'd say the worker steal has a lot more pluses than minuses. The best time to steal is when the AI can't retaliate.

Here's a possible plan through turn 47:

T38) Capital starts settler and works clams, cows, fish, and copper. Worker 1 chops tile 4. Worker 2 roads tile 6. Worker 3 goes to forest south of tile 4. Warrior steals Zulu worker.

T39) Worker 1 chops tile 4. Worker 2 goes to forest south of tile 4. Worker 3 chops. Worker 4 heads for home. Warrior NE toward Zulu cows.

T40) Worker 1 chops tile 4. Workers 2 and 3 chop.

T41) Capital settler->workboat. Work gold instead of copper. Settler founds PH City on tile 6. Starts warrior and works 1f2h tile. Worker 1 to tile 5. Workers 2 and 3 to tile 8.

T42) Capital queue swap workboat to warrior. Work copper, cows, fish, gold. Worker 1 roads tile 5. Workers 2 and 3 camp ivory on tile 8.

T43) Writing->Math. Capital warrior->library. Worker 1 roads tile 5. Workers 2 and 3 camp ivory on tile 8. PH City works ivory.

T44) Worker 1 mines tile 4. Workers 2 and 3 road tile 8.

T45) PH City warrior->workboat. Workers 1, 2, and 3 mine tile 4. Worker 4 goes to tile 8 (if avoided barbs).

T46) Capital Pop5, work clams. Workers 1, 2, 3, and 4 to tile 7 and pasture cows. PH City works cows.

T47) Capital library->workboat. Hire 1 scientist instead of working copper. Workers 1 and 2 road tile 7. Workers 3 and 4 to copper.

Pop6 comes on turn 51, at which point we can hire the second scientist. That would give us the academy on turn 66. On T48, copper will be hooked, and PH City can start an axe. The forest west of PH City can be chopped for the axe, and then two workers can begin roads toward Zululand to speed up the axe a bit.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks to leif, I have managed to open SCT's test game (though I won't have time to deal with it until late tonight). Couple of questions for SCT:

Could you copy your map with the tiles labeled into your post above for easy reference?

Have you made Shaka's development a part of the practice save, or is it just intended to be useful for testing optimal city development?

 

[ShannonCT]

Could you copy your map with the tiles labeled into your post above for easy reference?

Done.

Have you made Shaka's development a part of the practice save, or is it just intended to be useful for testing optimal city development?

In the practice game, Shaka has Hunting, Wheel, Agriculture, Archery, Mining, Animal Husbandry, Fishing, and Bronze Working. I guess he might not have AH in the real game if he got a coastal start. In the practice game, Shaka should settle a city next turn. I've taken away the copper that was in Leif's original game, because we probably wouldn't see a worker chopping in the south if there was copper to the north.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Done. Excellent.

In the practice game, Shaka has Hunting, Wheel, Agriculture, Archery, Mining, Animal Husbandry, Fishing, and Bronze Working. I guess he might not have AH in the real game if he got a coastal start. In the practice game, Shaka should settle a city next turn. I've taken away the copper that was in Leif's original game, because we probably wouldn't see a worker chopping in the south if there was copper to the north.

Since BW just came in, he obviously just discovered any copper available. Are you saying that because he is presently chopping, he must have no copper?

 

[ShannonCT]

Since BW just came in, he obviously just discovered any copper available. Are you saying that because he is presently chopping, he must have no copper?

My assumption is that an AI that has copper nearby will start building a road toward it and have his worker ready to mine the copper after building a city nearby. This is what Shaka did in earlier practice games when he had copper in his second city's borders.

 

[Cactus Pete]

My assumption is that an AI that has copper nearby will start building a road toward it and have his worker ready to mine the copper after building a city nearby. This is what Shaka did in earlier practice games when he had copper in his second city's borders.

Interesting . . . You're saying he roaded toward the copper before he could have known it was there? A needed AI edge, I suppose.

BTW, on turn 39 you have two workers (2&3) working the forest south of tile 4. I can't believe that is optimal (perhaps not what you intended) because that means two different workers take a turn moving onto the same forest.

 

[ShannonCT]

Interesting . . . You're saying he roaded toward the copper before he could have known it was there? A needed AI edge, I suppose.

No, in the practice game, Shaka got BW earlier. Once he knew where the copper was, he built his second city there and started roading toward it.

BTW, on turn 39 you have two workers (2&3) working the forest south of tile 4. I can't believe that is optimal (perhaps not what you intended) because that means two different workers take a turn moving onto the same forest.

This is the only way I can see to get the settler out by turn 41. I'd hate to delay it any more than we have to. And with 4 workers, we can afford these kinds of small inefficiencies.

 

[Cactus Pete]

No, in the practice game, Shaka got BW earlier. Once he knew where the copper was, he built his second city there and started roading toward it. Well, then, the question that again begs an answer is: How likely is Shaka to have copper that BW has just revealed to him?

This is the only way I can see to get the settler out by turn 41. I'd hate to delay it any more than we have to. And with 4 workers, we can afford these kinds of small inefficiencies.

Understand now, having played the practice game through turn 57. What I've found so far is that I can get a warrior out immediately from our capital (and he is able to fog bust a bit and escort the captured worker safely) and then get the library built on turn 45 with pop5 and one scientist coming on turn 46 by sacrificing the founding of PHcity one turn. I think that this is a good trade-off, and I am able to avoid some of the inefficiencies that rushing the founding necessitates.

For discussion:

Presuming Mysticism after Writing>Math, should we go with Poly or Medi next? Poly is a bit more beaker-costly, but we will need it to get to Literature and build the GL, plus we won't be able to use our second GS for anything but Philosophy if we have Medi and CoL. Any chance we are going to want Philosophy in order to convert to Pacifism?

Regarding building: In addition to a couple of warriors, the library, and an axe, I'm inclined to get two workboats out (one north and one south), along with a second axe. With the gold and the ivory connected, the capital can go to pop seven, so it's not clear whether it's best to build a barracks there as it grows or to get to work on another settler ASAP.

Please refresh my memory as to what we decided regarding researching Masonry and Sailing and founding a third city on the Marble to facilitate the Oracle build?

At about turn 57, we go below 20 gold in the treasury. Do we want to keep that much (and start running at less than 100% some turns), or go to 10 gold (or just take our chances) in order to better deal with some random event?


I would like to play to about turn 58, when the axe gets to the horses and lets us know whether we've got a major tactical problem. Hope to post a plan in about 10 hours, but I will not be able to play until Thursday.

 

[ShannonCT]

Well, then, the question that again begs an answer is: How likely is Shaka to have copper that BW has just revealed to him?

Again, my guess is not very likely. If it was in his capital's FC, he wouldn't have given a worker chop orders. If it was outside his borders but close enough to capture with a second city, he probably wouldn't have given the worker chop orders either. He should give it orders to build a road toward the copper.

Understand now, having played the practice game through turn 57. What I've found so far is that I can get a warrior out immediately from our capital (and he is able to fog bust a bit and escort the captured worker safely) and then get the library built and then two scientists running both one turn sooner by sacrificing the founding of PHcity one turn. I think that this is a good trade-off, and I am able to avoid some of the inefficiencies that rushing the founding necessitates.

So you can get the academy by turn 66 and Oracle IBT69/70 this way? If so, sounds good. The worker will be sure to survive this way.

Presuming Mysticism after Writing>Math, should we go with Poly or Medi next? Poly is a bit more beaker-costly, but we will need it to get to Literature and build the GL, plus we won't be able to use our second GS for anything but Philosophy if we have Medi and CoL. Any chance we are going to want Philosophy in order to convert to Pacifism?

I'd say we definitely want Philosophy sooner rather than later. Especially if we are in for a longer game, there are a lot of techs GSs can bulb. And we need several Prophets as well.

As for the decision of Poly or Medi, Poly is slightly more useful in the near term, opening up Lit and Artemis. We might be able to calculate whether Poly will slow CoL by one turn, after we finish Myst.

Regarding building: In addition to a couple of warriors, the library, and an axe, I'm inclined to get two workboats out (one north and one south), along with a second axe. With the gold and the ivory connected, the capital can go to pop seven, so it's not clear whether it's best to build a barracks there as it grows or to get to work on another settler ASAP.

I've been building one exploratory workboat in each of our two cities. And I've been growing the capital to Pop7 while building barracks, and then switching to a settler at Pop7. Unless we run across some extra cash, settling a third city before turn 67 will probably delay CoL.

Please refresh my memory as to what we decided regarding researching Masonry and Sailing and founding a third city on the Marble to facilitate the Oracle build?

It slows down the CS-slingshot. Oracle can be built while researching CoL and with two chops.

At about turn 57, we go below 20 gold in the treasury. Do we want to keep that much (and start running at less than 100% some turns), or go to 10 gold (or just take our chances) in order to better deal with some random event?

The Slavery event (the worst one IMHO) can't happen until after we adopt slavery. The forest fire event costs 10 gold to save the forest. The only thing that costs 20 gold is saving a washed-out road.

I think we shouldn't worry about having gold on hand until after we adopt slavery.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Again, my guess is not very likely. If it was in his capital's FC, he wouldn't have given a worker chop orders. So, there's no doubt he gave the chop order after he had BW and copper showed up on the map? That's not clear to me.

So you can get the academy by turn 66 and Oracle IBT69/70 this way? If so, sounds good. The worker will be sure to survive this way. Academy by turn 66, for sure. Haven't played all the way to Oracle, but would seem very likely can get it by 70. I thought our projection was that 71 was pretty safe?

I'd say we definitely want Philosophy sooner rather than later. Especially if we are in for a longer game, there are a lot of techs GSs can bulb. And we need several Prophets as well. Sounds right.

As for the decision of Poly or Medi, Poly is slightly more useful in the near term, opening up Lit and Artemis. We might be able to calculate whether Poly will slow CoL by one turn, after we finish Myst. I'll try to look at this. Again, is one turn critical?

I've been building one exploratory workboat in each of our two cities. And I've been growing the capital to Pop7 while building barracks, and then switching to a settler at Pop7. Unless we run across some extra cash, settling a third city before turn 67 will probably delay CoL. Concur.

It slows down the CS-slingshot. Oracle can be built while researching CoL and with two chops. Understood.

The Slavery event (the worst one IMHO) can't happen until after we adopt slavery. The forest fire event costs 10 gold to save the forest. The only thing that costs 20 gold is saving a washed-out road. I think we shouldn't worry about having gold on hand until after we adopt slavery.

I don't think I'll have any problem keeping above ten gold during my set. Not sure I agree that going below that is worth risking the loss of a forest.

 

[leif erikson]

Presuming Mysticism after Writing>Math, should we go with Poly or Medi next? Poly is a bit more beaker-costly, but we will need it to get to Literature and build the GL, plus we won't be able to use our second GS for anything but Philosophy if we have Medi and CoL. Any chance we are going to want Philosophy in order to convert to Pacifism?

As we intend to use our first Scientist for an Academy, it seems that the only reason to research Meditation first would be if we need to speed our path to CoL's. Otherwise, Poly opens the path to The Great Library, which we will need.

Regarding building: In addition to a couple of warriors, the library, and an axe, I'm inclined to get two workboats out (one north and one south), along with a second axe. With the gold and the ivory connected, the capital can go to pop seven, so it's not clear whether it's best to build a barracks there as it grows or to get to work on another settler ASAP.

I agree with SCT on this. A second settler should not be needed until after Oracle and the sling. Wish we knew where Iron will be, if anywhere. It'll probably show in Shaka's bfc...

Please refresh my memory as to what we decided regarding researching Masonry and Sailing and founding a third city on the Marble to facilitate the Oracle build?

Yes, Masonry and Sailing slow the Oracle too much. We'll get them after the sling. I wonder if we will need to actually build a city on that island or if we can use a Fort to claim it, once it is within our cultural boundaries?

Also, which city are we planning to build the Oracle in, Capital or PH? For some reason, I am confused about this...

At about turn 57, we go below 20 gold in the treasury. Do we want to keep that much (and start running at less than 100% some turns), or go to 10 gold (or just take our chances) in order to better deal with some random event?

I also would not worry about this. After the sling and Bureaucracy, we should be able to save a bit.

I would like to play to about turn 58, when the axe gets to the horses and lets us know whether we've got a major tactical problem. Hope to post a plan in about 10 hours, but I will not be able to play until Thursday.

This is all fine with me.

EDIT - X'ed with CP...

 

[killercane]

If poly doesnt slow anything down, I wouldnt mind getting it first. It is needed pretty asap. Meditation can wait; if it does slow us down a turn, then it isnt that big of a deal as hopefully we can find an AI to trade with soon anyways to hopefully get that missing religious tech (w/ alphabet of course).

 

[Cactus Pete]

Also, which city are we planning to build the Oracle in, Capital or PH? For some reason, I am confused about this... I had been assuming that it was being built in the capital, but I just played the practice up to turn 72 and was able to get CoL on 71 and build the Oracle in the PH city on turn 72 (took some careful micro-managing and could get it on 71 by chopping a third forest).[/), which allowed me to get a settler out of the capital on turn 67. Question is where to settle him if we go that route. Really like some input on risk involved in getting Oracle on 72, because unexpected events could create the need to take risks to maintain that date.

This is all fine with me.

EDIT - X'ed with CP...

Got to go . . . will try to post plan tonight. Appreciate any input in the interim.

 

[ShannonCT]

So, there's no doubt he gave the chop order after he had BW and copper showed up on the map? That's not clear to me.

Chopping requires BW. Humans can't give chop orders before BW is discovered, and I assume the same is true for the AI.

I agree with SCT on this. A second settler should not be needed until after Oracle and the sling. Wish we knew where Iron will be, if anywhere. It'll probably show in Shaka's bfc...

But we should build a third city as soon as we can without delaying CoL. In my practice games, that has been turn 67.

Yes, Masonry and Sailing slow the Oracle too much. We'll get them after the sling. I wonder if we will need to actually build a city on that island or if we can use a Fort to claim it, once it is within our cultural boundaries?

It would be a good secondary GP farm. It could support 5 scientists and would give our other cities overseas trade routes.

Also, which city are we planning to build the Oracle in, Capital or PH? For some reason, I am confused about this...

I have been building it in PH City so as to save more forests for GLH in the capital. However, there's something to be said for putting it in the capital: PH City could become a dedicated military city, building barracks, stables, and Heroic Epic, and then spamming elephants. The capital could become a wonder factory, especially the wonders that give Prophet points.

If poly doesnt slow anything down, I wouldnt mind getting it first. It is needed pretty asap. Meditation can wait; if it does slow us down a turn, then it isnt that big of a deal as hopefully we can find an AI to trade with soon anyways to hopefully get that missing religious tech (w/ alphabet of course).

And if we can't get it in a trade, it only costs us 1 turn of research after Bureaucracy and GLH. So if getting Medi after Myst saves 1 turn on CoL, researching Poly later costs us nothing.

 

[leif erikson]

I had been assuming that it was being built in the capital, but I just played the practice up to turn 72 and was able to get CoL on 71 and build the Oracle in the PH city on turn 72 (took some careful micro-managing and could get it on 71 by chopping a third forest), which allowed me to get a settler out of the capital on turn 67. Question is where to settle him if we go that route.

I think that turn 74 is kind of the drop dead date on Oracle. Not sure who is out there, but in practice games I was losing it from turn 73-74 onward, regularly.

I asked the question about the city because I am unsure whether we should try to get the Prophet points separated from the others, or not. I thought we were going to try to build Oracle in the PH city? I'm not sure if that is best or if our capital would be better.

As far as settling, in testing, the Marble city was a pretty good city for commerce and even great people, when we could work both fish. However, we require a Galley to get the Settler there and that won't happen until Sailing is in, so no rush for a Settler. Should we take Shaka's capital, the maintenance of another city could slow research, so I am unsure of the trade off. Perhaps SCT has a better feel as he has test played longer timings than I have.

like some input on risk involved in getting Oracle on 72, because unexpected events could create the need to take risks to maintain that date.

I think turn 72 is a great goal and we should try not to miss that date! Even at the cost of another forest!

EDIT - X'ed with SCT.

Turn 67 for Settler. Where do you want to settle, north of PH city by the seafood?

 

[ShannonCT]

I think turn 72 is a great goal and we should try not to miss that date! Even at the cost of another forest!

I'd like to push that down to 70 or 71. 70 is possible from my practice games if we get the academy by turn 66.

Turn 67 for Settler. Where do you want to settle, north of PH city by the seafood?

A city by the pigs on turn 67 would be good for an immediate benefit. If it's built early enough, we can grow it big enough to whip a couple cats in time to matter.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Chopping requires BW. Humans can't give chop orders before BW is discovered, and I assume the same is true for the AI. It occurs to me that I might have figured that out for myself.

But we should build a third city as soon as we can without delaying CoL. In my practice games, that has been turn 67. Should we consider near the rice, cows, and seafood?

I have been building it in PH City so as to save more forests for GLH in the capital. However, there's something to be said for putting it in the capital: PH City could become a dedicated military city, building barracks, stables, and Heroic Epic, and then spamming elephants. The capital could become a wonder factory, especially the wonders that give Prophet points. Won't we want to build the GLTHS in PH and would that argue for or against the Oracle there. Hope there's a decision on this by Thursday.

And if we can't get it in a trade, it only costs us 1 turn of research after Bureaucracy and GLH. So if getting Medi after Myst saves 1 turn on CoL, researching Poly later costs us nothing.

Don't think it necessarily saves a turn, but it does give us a little margin of error, perhaps enough to keep a bit of gold in the treasury.

BTW, in practicing things happened of interest: 1) before turn 50, I was confronted with a road (on cows) disaster or pay 20 gold; 2) Shaka completed a roaded pasture on the horses on turn 59; about turn 70, there was a barb uprising (4 spearmen) SW of PH city. So our plans do need to be flexible.

 

[ShannonCT]

Should we consider near the rice, cows, and seafood?

Yes, that would make a nice city. I wonder if Shaka might build a city there for us since the cows are outside his capital's FC.

Won't we want to build the GLTHS in PH and would that argue for or against the Oracle there. Hope there's a decision on this by Thursday.

It's a lot faster to build GLH in the capital because of Bureaucracy and more forests.

The only thing I dont like about building the Oracle in the capital is that it precludes building an early second settler.

2) Shaka completed a roaded pasture on the horses on turn 59

If there's not much land north of Shaka's capital, the warrior can swing back around that way and try to slow down the horse pasturing.

about turn 70, there was a barb uprising (4 spearmen) SW of PH city. So our plans do need to be flexible.

We should have a couple axemen at home by then. I noticed that barb uprisings can happen even in areas that are fogbusted.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Yes, that would make a nice city. I wonder if Shaka might build a city there for us since the cows are outside his capital's FC. Unfortunately he builds just north of the rice, ignoring the fish. Nonetheless, after further considerations, I'm in agreement with 1N of pigs.

It's a lot faster to build GLH in the capital because of Bureaucracy and more forests. The only thing I dont like about building the Oracle in the capital is that it precludes building an early second settler. Yes, I just completed my practice, and was able to get the pig city settled on 66 and the Oracle in PH on 70 (though it only grew to pop 3 because I worked two mines). That's my plan at the moment. (I'll post in it in a few minutes.)

If there's not much land north of Shaka's capital, the warrior can swing back around that way and try to slow down the horse pasturing. I'll do that if there's no exploring for him to do north and east of Zululand. I've decided that trying to get an axe to the horses by 58 is too difficult, so I'm going to send a second warrior if needed who gets there about 54, depending on the map, and follow up with an axe about turn 60.

We should have a couple axemen at home by then. I'm only planning to build two axes -- one to the horses and one to guard the homeland, because they cost gold for upkeep and other things seem more important. Hopefully we'll be able to chop another one quickly if needed. I noticed that barb uprisings can happen even in areas that are fogbusted.

Yes, that happened to me. This aspect of Bts certainly adds chance and could tilt the competition.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Here's the proposed plan for turns 38 and following:

Capture worker and follow rough outline prepared by SCT, including sending scout west, warrior to cows, and worker home to help pasture the cows in one turn. Will research Writing and then Math, followed by Mysticism and Meditation.

Intend to adjust SCT’s plan to get another warrior out immediately (to get worker home safely and then go monitor the horses), which will delay founding of PHcity one turn; however, this will enable building the library two turns sooner and getting to pop5 and a scientist on turn 46, Math on turn 53. If all goes without complications, I’ll put us on track to get an Academy on 65 and the Oracle on turn 70 (and the pig city founded on 66).

Specifically:
In capital . . . Settler for one turn, then complete warrior the next, and back to settler; then skip workboat for now and start on library immediately after settler, followed by warrior and then workboat for northern exploration.
In PHcity, warrior and then begin workboat for southern exploration, switch to axe when copper connected, and then complete wkbt.
Will be connecting ivory camp, just in time for pop5, second warrior for pop6, and gold for pop7.