SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

I don't see much usefulness in it. I think we will have 1-2 GA max in this game. On quick speed they last 6 turns each. Having them prolonged to 9 turns is okay, but there is a better use of the build time IMHO. There really isn't much return on investment unless several GA is part of the strategy. Since they cost increasingly more great people with each GA, they are a bit...meh.

1 GAge with Taj, 1 more with an inevitable GSpy. Aren't 6 total turns of GAge worth 9 turns of building and 3 of research?
Remember, we got marble and i chop 2 forests OUTSIDE the BFC.
And if we have 2 useless GPeoples like another GSpy and a GProphet, a GM or a GA how do we use them? For a GAge to empower the final rush. This bring the total turns lost to 9.
BTW in another attempt i has 2 GSpies in a row, despite great chances to have a GS.

Very extensively, the above are my thoughts.
More opinions needed, soon please.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Well, it's a question of priorities. When's it going to be built, and when are we REXing. I'd rather spend on settler and paratroopers than MoM, but if we can fit it all in, that'd be nice.

 

[unclethrill]

I agree with Sweet. It would be nice but not worth sacrificing something else that could be more important in the end.
My guess is that BLubmuz has the micro-management down to a science so we might be better listening to his suggestions.

 

[Sweetacshon]

I'd be very impressed if he's mapped out the most efficient turns up to that point. Anyway, it's more of a strategic decision than one based on MMing.

Playing soon.

 

[Simon_c]

My guess is that BLubmuz has the micro-management down to a science so we might be better listening to his suggestions.

I just keep suggesting things from the sidelines that he's already thought of & discounted

 

[Sweetacshon]

I stopped one turn before oracle/maths. Everything went according to plan, except for one issue. It was impossible to finish TGW on the same turn. Impossible, I say. And no, it's not because I worked the sea. I checked and rechecked, and it couldn't be done by a very close margin, so the fish was worked to grow more quickly. I'm not sure where the missing hammers went, and I'm certain I followed the plan, but there is only one turns difference between us and Blubmuz' test... perhaps a tile wasn't worked on the turn it was improved somewhere in the game. Anyway, we move on. We could revolt asap, and finish the GW later (my choice), or wait for the GW, then revolt. Note that this doesn't imply that we'll finish the game 1 turn later, just that the GW will be delayed. There is a slight possibility that an AI will snake it from us, and no doubt heads will explode, but I'm sure that won't happen.

Otherwise, Hammy has OBs, we spied him out, and he went into OR. Yes, he founded Judaism! Nothing much else of note happened. Play on, Blubmuz. Don't forget that your settler is in the queue.

edit: I forgot to mention the workers. They are on the same plot, as Athens doesn't need a new tile to work soon... seemed like a good idea, as LP will grow very soon.

Spoiler :

Turn 37/330 (1780 BC) [23-Apr-2009 00:04:57]
Sweetacshon: Launch Pad is good to go. Athens switches to sheep to grow in 1.
Sweetacshon: Finally someone gets OB with Hamster.
Sweetacshon: Science jacked up to 100% for CoL in 4. I don't recall that being mentioned??!
Athens grows: 2

IBT:

Turn 38/330 (1720 BC) [23-Apr-2009 00:15:13]

IBT:

Turn 39/330 (1660 BC) [23-Apr-2009 00:31:18]

IBT:
Judaism founded in a distant land

Turn 40/330 (1600 BC) [23-Apr-2009 00:32:54]
The Launch Pad begins: Settler (9 turns)
Sweetacshon: There you go, skipper.

A Windmill was built near Athens
A Forest Preserve was built near The Launch Pad
Sweetacshon: Switch citizens to work the new improvements.
Tech learned: Code of Laws
Confucianism founded in Athens
Confucianism has spread: Athens

IBT:
Civics Change: Hammurabi(Babylon) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 41/330 (1540 BC) [23-Apr-2009 00:36:43]
Research begun: Mathematics (5 Turns)
Sweetacshon: Hmmm... I'm not sure maths will be done in 5 here, because dropping to 90% for 0gpt blows it out to 6 turns. Here's hoping.
Marie Curie (Great Scientist) born in The Launch Pad

IBT:
State Religion Change: Hammurabi(Babylon) from 'no State Religion' to 'Judaism'

Turn 42/330 (1480 BC) [23-Apr-2009 00:45:15]
Sweetacshon: Oh right. I forgot we get an academy. That'll sort it out. )
The Launch Pad finishes: Academy

IBT:

Turn 43/330 (1420 BC) [23-Apr-2009 00:51:09]
Sweetacshon: You know, we are 2 of finishing all these things in 2 turns. 2!!! I don't know where the MM error was, but I'm pretty sure I followed the plan. (not an accusation)
Sweetacshon: I decide to finish the oracle and maths asap.
Athens's borders expand

IBT:

Turn 44/330 (1360 BC) [23-Apr-2009 01:04:22]

here 'tis

 

[BLubmuz]

I have to open the save to try to understand.
I remember that once popped the GS, i switched from fish to riverside FP and fired a sci working the FHill.
Maybe you forgot this?

We got 2 choices:
1) finish the GW, then revolt to Caste+Bureau
2) revolt and hope

I'm slighlty in favor of 2.

Aside this (and it's not an easy decision) my PPP is:

Grow LP to 7, while put 1 turn on Pyramids. no need to do this, LP will grow while completing the GW
Once LP grows 7, worker> settler
Build the Airship ASAP in Athens, then library
I'll see the best use of workers, don't worry about my MM
research: Alpha - Currency - MC if i trade for the prerequisite.
Once reached Alpha, trade the hell, but only fairly.
I mean: on Monarch you have to give some 20% more than the AI will give you, depending by the tech and the AI.
Around this i'll trade, over +30% no.

edit: opened the save. You're working the fish instead of the FHill. this is the reason of the delay.

i'd like to keep this Autolog as a masterpiece of MM :

Spoiler :

The Launch Pad grows: 5
Athens's borders expand

Turn 32/330 (2080 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:25:14]
Blub's comment: Launch now works: 2 WM, fish, river GLF
Blub's comment: Athens works unimproved sheeps
Blub's comment: Library gained 1 turn by growth

Turn 33/330 (2020 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:27:49]
A Quarry was built near Athens
A Forest Preserve was built near The Launch Pad
Athens finishes: Warrior

Turn 34/330 (1960 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:28:00]
Athens begins: Airship (27 turns)
Blub's comment: Athens works quarry
The Launch Pad finishes: Library

Turn 35/330 (1900 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:29:00]
The Launch Pad grows: 6

Turn 36/330 (1840 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:29:31]
Blub's comment: 2 Sci. in Launch, GW in 11 vs 10
Athens begins: The Oracle (13 turns)

Turn 37/330 (1780 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:32:25]
Athens grows: 2

Turn 38/330 (1720 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:32:42]

Turn 39/330 (1660 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:33:08]

Turn 40/330 (1600 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:33:15]
A Windmill was built near Athens
A Forest Preserve was built near The Launch Pad
Blub's comment: Launch works 2nd FP, starving with 2 sci
Blub's comment: Athens works quarry + WM, 0 growth
Tech learned: Code of Laws
Confucianism founded in Athens
Confucianism has spread: Athens

Turn 41/330 (1540 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:35:38]
Research begun: Mathematics (6 Turns)
Andrei Sakharov (Great Scientist) born in The Launch Pad

Turn 42/330 (1480 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:36:24]
The Launch Pad finishes: Academy
Blub's comment: back to FHill, GW in 4, only 1 sci for now, 0 growth.
Blub's comment: Athens switches to airship for 1 turn

Turn 43/330 (1420 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:39:05]
Athens begins: The Oracle (3 turns)
Blub's comment: back to Oracle
Athens's borders expand

Turn 44/330 (1360 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:39:45]

Turn 45/330 (1300 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:40:09]
The Launch Pad begins: The Pyramids (48 turns)
Blub's comment: Launch works fish instead of FHill
Tech learned: Mathematics
The Launch Pad finishes: The Great Wall
Athens finishes: The Oracle

Turn 46/330 (1240 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:41:53]
Research begun: Alphabet (5 Turns)
Tech learned: Civil Service

IBT:
Civics Change: Pericles(Greece) from 'Barbarism' to 'Bureaucracy'
Civics Change: Pericles(Greece) from 'Tribalism' to 'Caste System'

Turn 47/330 (1180 BC) [16-Apr-2009 21:43:10]

 

[BLubmuz]

If i don't see comments, i'll play in 10 hours from now.
I posted a detailed PPP also on #3.

 

[Sweetacshon]

edit: opened the save. You're working the fish instead of the FHill. this is the reason of the delay.

*Sigh* No, that's not the reason:

It was impossible to finish TGW on the same turn. Impossible, I say. And no, it's not because I worked the sea. I checked and rechecked, and it couldn't be done by a very close margin, so the fish was worked to grow more quickly. I'm not sure where the missing hammers went, and I'm certain I followed the plan, but there is only one turns difference between us and Blubmuz' test... perhaps a tile wasn't worked on the turn it was improved somewhere in the game.

I MMd my pants off, but there was no way it was happening. We just couldn't finish maths and GW on the same turn. Another point is that I didn't switch off the oracle and onto the blimp for one turn, so it's all very weird. Did we miss a turn in there somewhere?

I'm checking your plan now.

 

[BLubmuz]

*Sigh* No, that's not the reason:

I MMd my pants off, but there was no way it was happening. We just couldn't finish maths and GW on the same turn. Another point is that I didn't switch off the oracle and onto the blimp for one turn, so it's all very weird. Did we miss a turn in there somewhere?

I'm checking your plan now.

NOW i understand.
Working the fish you are getting Math 1 turn earlier than i did.
Thus, switching the Oracle for the *blimp* (thanks to Babylon translator) is no more necessary.
I noticed Math was very stretched, despite 100% science (i kept 90% in my tests) this is why it was.
Conclusion: we'll have CS 1 turns earlier and if we revolt before complete the GW we'll be only 1 turn later.
All in all can be better in this way.
So i'm far more in favor to revolt before to have the GW completed.

 

[Sweetacshon]

OK, well I stopped 1 before oracle to give people a chance to discuss other options, such as what to tech next. CS is fine for the oracle, I suppose. Alpha is ok, but what do we plan to trade for? Anything and everything? Obviously ag/AH is a huge priority!! If Hammy has OR, then he's probably filled in the bottom of the tree, so maybe we'll get away with trading writing as well. Does anyone know his typical tech path?

The plan is otherwise basically sound. What do you plan to do with the workers? Obviously farms and what not as they become available... but a question: Do those FP in the overlap between our cities count as in both cities? If so then they are a priority. Also, you mentioned WMing the hill near LP... is this a better use than another FP? Also, how many scientists do you intend to run?

 

[Sweetacshon]

NOW i understand.
Working the fish you are getting Math 1 turn earlier than i did.
Thus, switching the Oracle for the *blimp* (thanks to Babylon translator) is no more necessary.
I noticed Math was very stretched, despite 100% science (i kept 90% in my tests) this is why it was.
Conclusion: we'll have CS 1 turns earlier and if we revolt before complete the GW we'll be only 1 turn later.
All in all can be better in this way.
So i'm far more in favor to revolt before to have the GW completed.

Hmm... I din't think I dropped a turn.

Yep, I think revolt asap as well... it'll probably improve the overflow from GW/stone/bureau as well so try and max it into the worker.

 

[BLubmuz]

I answer to your questions:
The FP count for both cities if they share FP tiles? yes (95%)
workers:
1a) i'm thinking to road to city #3, then go pasture sheeps, or
1b) FP a GLF NE of Athens, then go pasture sheeps but with a couple turns delay
2) FP a GLF on the coast W of LP

sci: not decided. 1 at least, 2 if i can see not a big delay on worker/settler. No more, for now.

Windmill on the ForHill, please: 2F+2H+3G are great for our bureau capital.
And the chopping will go in the Pyramids, after the forge is built, so we'll have +75% from chop. After that we can chop *outside* the BFC (but inside our borders) to speed Mids and Repr. Chop is a good way to have the forge for free.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Well, everyone else has gone quiet. Do you think you should delay your TS a bit for comments?

 

[BLubmuz]

Well, everyone else has gone quiet. Do you think you should delay your TS a bit for comments?

No. If they do have something to complain, better they watch the thread.
Silence = consensus

edit: i verified our teammates activities on CFC and all of them have contacted the site today.
If they not posted, they surely approve my PPP.

Honest, it would have been better seen some opinion from them. Or even a "go ahead, good look"
- hey i'm talking about you, guys -

I'll play in few hours.

 

[Sweetacshon]

It can't hurt to wait a bit longer, but it's up to you. Good luck.

 

[unclethrill]

Since the plan for everyone's TS has been to follow what you have decided, is there really much to discuss on your TS? I'm sure that BLub has a firm grasp on how this game is gonna turn out so unless I have some real heartburn with one of his decisions, I figure to keep quiet and let us get through a few turns semi-quickly.

 

[berserks01]

I saw the PPP, but don't have time to look too deeply into it. Plus, what unclethrill said is also correct. We followed your PPP, so you going along with your PPP won't garner much critics

 

[BLubmuz]

TS played, the save.

Firtly, i'd like to introduce you to mr. Aristotle, born in LP in my last turn.
Second, i invite you to pray for the soul of our scout, which will fall under an archer to escape from a warrior on the Flood plain. RIP, but next turn.

My autolog, filled with notes.

Spoiler :

Blub's comment: nothing to do - CS sling will arrive 1t. earlier, GW 1t. later OK, enter
Tech learned: Mathematics
Athens finishes: The Oracle

IBT:

Turn 45/330 (1300 BC) [23-Apr-2009 23:51:50]
Research begun: Alphabet (5 Turns)
Tech learned: Civil Service
A Forest Preserve was built near The Launch Pad

IBT:
Civics Change: Pericles(Greece) from 'Barbarism' to 'Bureaucracy'
Civics Change: Pericles(Greece) from 'Tribalism' to 'Caste System'

Turn 46/330 (1240 BC) [23-Apr-2009 23:52:58]
Blub's comment: research 60%
The Launch Pad begins: Worker (3 turns)
The Launch Pad begins: Settler (5 turns)
The Launch Pad begins: The Pyramids (34 turns)
The Launch Pad grows: 7
The Launch Pad finishes: The Great Wall

IBT:

Turn 47/330 (1180 BC) [23-Apr-2009 23:55:20]
Blub's comment: 2 sci in LP, research back to 100%, alpha in 3t.
Confucianism has spread: The Launch Pad

IBT:

Turn 48/330 (1120 BC) [23-Apr-2009 23:57:57]

IBT:

Turn 49/330 (1060 BC) [23-Apr-2009 23:58:31]
Tech learned: Alphabet
The Launch Pad's borders expand

IBT:

Turn 50/330 (1000 BC) [23-Apr-2009 23:58:59]
Research begun: Currency (4 Turns)
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry
Tech learned: Pottery
Tech learned: Mining
Blub's comment: trade with Hammu: we give 217, we get 227

The Launch Pad finishes: Worker
Athens finishes: Airship

IBT:

Turn 51/330 (960 BC) [24-Apr-2009 00:02:02]
Athens begins: Library (5 turns)

IBT:

Turn 52/330 (920 BC) [24-Apr-2009 00:02:53]
Contact made: Korean Empire
A Forest Preserve was built near Athens
A Forest Preserve was built near The Launch Pad
Tech learned: Bronze Working
Blub's comment: met Wang, signed OB
Blub's comment: traded BW for wri, a classic even

IBT:

Turn 53/330 (880 BC) [24-Apr-2009 00:06:34]
Blub's comment: airship across the Ocean, in Pyongyang
Tech learned: Currency
Aristotle (Great Scientist) born in The Launch Pad

IBT:

Turn 54/330 (840 BC) [24-Apr-2009 00:08:36]
Research begun: Paper (6 Turns)
Contact made: Incan Empire

Blub's comment: met HC, signed OB
Tech learned: Agriculture
Tech learned: Archery
Tech learned: Iron Working
Blub's comment: Math+Med to Wang for Agri, Archery, IW + 5 gold. Even,
with money in gift

our empire... well not exactly an empire. For now.

The airship should recon W and if it discover a city, put in there, then west again.
I just started paper, but i'd like to research MC, for the reasons i exposed days ago.
The GS will be settled. Or no?
Once the mine is ready, fire a sci (but we'll always keep at least 1) and max hammers for Pyramids.
Once Athens will finish library, an archer for Sparta is needed.

The turnlog, for what is worth

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1360 BC to 840 BC:

Turn 44, 1360 BC: nothing to do - CS sling will arrive 1t. earlier, GW 1t. later OK, enter
Turn 44, 1360 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!
Turn 44, 1360 BC: Pericles has completed The Oracle!
Turn 44, 1360 BC: You have constructed The Oracle in Athens. Work has now begun on a Airship.

Turn 45, 1300 BC: You have discovered Civil Service!
Turn 45, 1300 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 45, 1300 BC: Pericles adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 45, 1300 BC: Pericles adopts Caste System!
Turn 45, 1300 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 46, 1240 BC: research 60%
Turn 46, 1240 BC: Pericles has completed The Great Wall!
Turn 46, 1240 BC: You have constructed The Great Wall in The Launch Pad. Work has now begun on a Worker.

Turn 47, 1180 BC: 2 sci in LP, research back to 100%, alpha in 3t.
Turn 47, 1180 BC: Confucianism has spread in The Launch Pad.
Turn 47, 1180 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!

Turn 49, 1060 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 49, 1060 BC: The borders of The Launch Pad have expanded!

Turn 50, 1000 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!
Turn 50, 1000 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Turn 50, 1000 BC: You have discovered Mining!
Turn 50, 1000 BC: trade with Hammu: we give 217, we get 227
Turn 50, 1000 BC: You have trained a Worker in The Launch Pad. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 52, 920 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 52, 920 BC: You have discovered a source of Copper near Athens!
Turn 52, 920 BC: You have discovered a source of Copper near The Launch Pad!
Turn 52, 920 BC: met Wang, signed OB
Turn 52, 920 BC: traded BW for wri, a classic even

Turn 53, 880 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Wang Kon
Turn 53, 880 BC: airship across the Ocean, in Pyongyang
Turn 53, 880 BC: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 53, 880 BC: Aristotle (Great Scientist) has been born in The Launch Pad (Pericles)!

Turn 54, 840 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!
Turn 54, 840 BC: You have discovered Archery!
Turn 54, 840 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!

 

[Sweetacshon]

Blubmuz, that airship scout trick is working like a charm.

Sparta (actually, I prefer nonGreek names - get creative!) will just suck for food, and that is another vote for bio from lib, from me. We really need to get those cities in- The mids aren't really going to take 34 turns are they?