SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[Mesix]

Let me see here...

Representation brings +3 per specialist.

Conquering Hammy earlier brings higher maintenance costs.

We need to have maximum and minimum maintenance cotst to tech our way to Victory.

Do we really need to discuss this further?

 

[BLubmuz]

Let me see here...
Representation brings +3 per specialist.
Conquering Hammy earlier brings higher maintenance costs.
We need to have maximum and minimum maintenance cotst to tech our way to Victory.
Do we really need to discuss this further?

That's why i never even thought about this.
Still, it is a chance. Sooner or later we must have this problem (maintenance costs).

Let's put in this way: if this will delay Liberalism/rifling, will it delay the final victory, or the opposite?

A test is needed.
If you can wait the results of that, the better, i'll try to post something in 10 hours from now.

 

[Doom Train]

Hi guys,
Its been a long time since i last posted in Fifth Element SGOTM. Most of the new team members probably dont know me.

I got separeted from the team in August 2007 for my 1 year military duty. Nowadays I am working in a bank and that takes all of my time. But I ll try to comeback for next SGOTM or motivate you as a lurker in the weekends.

Its good to see the team is still up and running .

 

[BLubmuz]

Hi guys,
Its been a long time since i last posted in Fifth Element SGOTM. Most of the new team members probably dont know me.

I got separeted from the team in August 2007 for my 1 year military duty. Nowadays I am working in a bank and that takes all of my time. But I ll try to comeback for next SGOTM or motivate you as a lurker in the weekends.

Its good to see the team is still up and running .

Hi Doom, nice to have news from you.

You'll be welcome to join us back for next SG, if we're alive by then.

For now lurk at your taste.
All the best

 

[BLubmuz]

Test done.
Forget it.
Hammu studied IW before i could even build the first Mace. Then i had to wait to bring a Mace W of Babylon to pillage iron, but too late: some Xbow is ready and some sword promoted to shock.
But also Bowmen are not easy to beat.

Better wait for Paratroopers.

Go build Pyramids with a switch to forge.

No more than 15 minutes to see what happens, well spent.

edit: I'd like to see more activity from the other members.
Sometime even a short post to summarize your opinions is welcome.
Even if you got a only to confirm something you already posted, a post any 2 days will help us to see you're alive and avoid us to look for your opinions pages and pages back.

 

[unclethrill]

I'm still alive. In fact I've posted 19 Deity wins in the HOF this week. The last few posts I've made were summarily dismissed so I've been just keeping up with the directions from our team leader.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm still alive. In fact I've posted 19 Deity wins in the HOF this week.
Can't believe it!!! how did you manage it???
The last few posts I've made were summarily dismissed so I've been just keeping up with the directions from our team leader.

Hey!!!
We're a team. Any contribution is appreciated.

Better, any contribution is necessary.
Without Mesix's suggestions about settle GSs i would never have appreciated this tactic.

Just this: i've tested a lot, so i'm very sure about certain moves or choices.
I don't wanna appear as a dictator, nor i can be, nor i like to be.

I'm still uncertain about some choices and this uncertainty will increase as the game progresses.
But when i say "i'm strongly in favor of this" or "i'm sure this is the best choice" rest assured i've tried all the variations on that argument and evaluated the effects on the mid and long term.

 

[greatbeyond]

I've had to work today (Sunday) and have been reworking the test map and civilizations to match what we know. I hope to get it up-loaded in an hour.

Here are some other thoughts I have written down and pieced together.

On the contrary, I have read and do go back to re-read the previous posts. Especially when I am trying to figure out which path, discussion, plan is the best.

You do not need Airports to move Paras, but they can only jump 5 tiles and move 1 more after jumping. This will be important when/if we go after Korea or HC and we will need an Airport to transport to a "friendly" city or be within the 5 tile jump radius to their coast. Does the AI need an Airport too for us to get the trade route via our airport?

Forges are important, but delaying them 6 or even 10 turns will not cost us that much as we are building Settlers. The 4 turns of research to MC plus the 7-8 turns to build a forge put us solidly at the end of Education if we LB some of it.

Yes, I know settling the 1st or 2nd GS pays off in the long run but I think getting Paras as early as possible is the best way of securing our safety. You probably remember from the last two games how I like to tread slowly and carefully. But I do realize their are times to act boldly.

You even acknowledge that Either of the two paths I discussed are the quickest. The point of discussion has to be on the trade-off vs Forges/production. I have had some of the same questions and concerns as you, but I find quicker Paras guarantee victory vs delaying them for the chance of victory.

Yes, you proposed City sites, Mesix, countered, more discussion, I put in my two cents with settling the SE city 1N of the Cows first, Lets put it to a vote and to rest

I had already considered the early war against Hammi and discarded it, as my extensive testing before we even started showed it wouldn't work. You have tested it and found the same. Sometimes I can be right. Of course, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Maces are not going to be effective for offensive warfare at this point, only as a deterrent to Hammi attacking. He will get IW and get it mined before we can make any great offensive effort.

I agree that the Pyramids is the higher priority now.

I am tempted to propose this compromise; finish Paper and if the tech trading potentials have not improved then research MC. If there are lots of trades available and it appears an AI will have MC soon, then go on to Education.

If we don't want to wait any more, let's put the tech path to vote.

I value everyone's opinion and I realize you have tested extensively. You must remember that it is wise to have others examine and evaluate any plan, whether mine or yours . At work my fellow Managers and I exchange reports and plans with each other for critique. It is not uncommon to have someone proofread it and see problems or concerns that the writer cannot.

 

[greatbeyond]

This is the original test save at Turn15 that has been modified to reflect all the territory revealed and the AIs we know are in the game. I didn't have enough time to update it to the current turn. Hopefully I'll get a chance to do that tomorrow and carry out several tests of the proposed paths.

 

[Simon_c]

I don't have the experience to work out exactly which way is quickest, nor the time to run lots of play tests. But my gut feeling is that getting forges now will speed up all the future builds so worth the diversion now. However I'm very happy to bow to the greater experience. I'm really not used to playing where every turn counts.

As for city placement. S-SW of Iron looks OK. Does it really matter if we can't get a city in to work the fish ? We're not planning to be short on city sites ? So I'd vote for Mesix placements.

 

[BLubmuz]

(...)
You do not need Airports to move Paras, but they can only jump 5 tiles and move 1 more after jumping. This will be important when/if we go after Korea or HC and we will need an Airport to transport to a "friendly" city or be within the 5 tile jump radius to their coast. Does the AI need an Airport too for us to get the trade route via our airport?
Dunno about the trade routes for the AI. But i don't think that if we get an airport they benfit from this. We do, surely.
Not true about moving Paras with airports. Once you conquest a faraway city, say Babylon, even a para needs some 3 turns to go from LP or Athens to there. But no time if airlifted and even if we can't move him, he can defend and free the ones already there.

Forges are important, but delaying them 6 or even 10 turns will not cost us that much as we are building Settlers. The 4 turns of research to MC plus the 7-8 turns to build a forge put us solidly at the end of Education if we LB some of it.
Delaying forges is just a waste: the AI will never put on the table MC in 7-8 turns.
We can start the forge in LP in 5 turns from now and it will pay for itself.

Yes, I know settling the 1st or 2nd GS pays off in the long run but I think getting Paras as early as possible is the best way of securing our safety. You probably remember from the last two games how I like to tread slowly and carefully. But I do realize their are times to act boldly.

You even acknowledge that Either of the two paths I discussed are the quickest.
Sure, but you probably have missed (or my english is not good enough) that i said that not necessarily the quickest path to Paras is the quickest to:
1) have them ready in good numbers
2) have the structures up in the main cities
3) have REXed before then

That's why i completely "married" Mesix's proposal to settle GS: LB Edu will save some 10 turns on it (if we are lucky enough to pop the 3rd GS) but will delay GP and Philo/Lib.
In fact our REX will be done around the time we have researched Edu and our res. rate will suffer from that.
With 1 more GS settled we can arrive to rifling around turn 103.

Yes, you proposed City sites, Mesix, countered, more discussion, I put in my two cents with settling the SE city 1N of the Cows first, Lets put it to a vote and to rest

I agree that the Pyramids is the higher priority now.

I am tempted to propose this compromise; finish Paper and if the tech trading potentials have not improved then research MC. If there are lots of trades available and it appears an AI will have MC soon, then go on to Education.

If we don't want to wait any more, let's put the tech path to vote.

I value everyone's opinion and I realize you have tested extensively. You must remember that it is wise to have others examine and evaluate any plan, whether mine or yours . At work my fellow Managers and I exchange reports and plans with each other for critique. It is not uncommon to have someone proofread it and see problems or concerns that the writer cannot.

Good points.
Let's vote, or we can't complete this game in time.
I have to edit this to insert a city map.
... done. The map shows the optimal cities placements and how they're developed around turn 150.
The map is the perfect reproduction of the actual one, as we know it.
Sparta will be city #3, Thebes #4, city #5 will go (probably) on the furry island.
If we find resources city #6 can go south of #4 and finally #7 N of cows.
Why #7 last? this way we can grab land and (hopefully) block an AI which can be on south.
We'll REX right after Pyramids.
An Airport can pay for itself in terms of turns saved. As you can see, a settler needs 2.25 turns from LP to Sparta and 3.25 from LP to Thebes (No Eng. yet). An airport will need some 5-6 turns with forge. Thus it will pays for itself in terms of settlers movements (you save 5.5 but lose 2, so 3.5). Not to mention workers, mainly for the furry island and the additional trade route.

Don't worry about roads: i owned the HS in that attempt.

 

[BLubmuz]

Votes:
1) MC right now
2) city placement: not necessarily for the sequence, it's enough the placement for now. Of course #3 will go close to Iron. For the sequence we must wait after Mesix's TS when the island will be revealed by the blimp.
3) calendar/MoM: i see this like a combo, even if calendar is a good trader. I guess the best moment to decide for this will be right after next GPerson.

It's been 4 days from my TS posted: no more than 24 hours from now to gather the votes. If not all the members will express their opinions Mesix will post his PPP.

My votes:
1) even earlier, if possible
2) it's perfect, it's mine
3) yes and double yes if we pop a GSpy

Now, some tactics about founding new cities (i should have already posted something on this matter, but i can't find it):
a) Airlift the settlers to the closest city
b) next turn recon with airship the area where the city should go
c) if no barbs in sight send the settler unescorted to destination, possibly previously roaded
d) settle
e) after some turn airlift a Xbow from LP

this way the airport not only pays (almost) in terms of settler movements, but also in terms of maintenance costs for units. We can delay the defenders until all the new cities are in place.
Also is a good insurance for our safety in case we suffer an unwanted DoW: a couple Xbows can easily defend the city from the first wave and since LP can crank out 2 of them every 3 turns we have not much to worry about be attacked.

 

[Simon_c]

Are you proposing no defending troops in the cities at all ? Remember we can only airlift one per turn until the target city has an airport too.

Votes:
1) I'd say MC now.
2) what choices are we voting between?
3) I don't see a need to vote on Calendar yet. Maybe if we have a junk GP. But even a spy gives us 6 under republic as well as enough EPs to keep a track on the AIs. Remember, now we know more AIs, we'll have many more targets for EPs.

 

[BLubmuz]

Are you proposing no defending troops in the cities at all ? Remember we can only airlift one per turn until the target city has an airport too.
We don't need more than 1 if not at war. And, yes some turn without defenders is not a problem with the GW and no wars.
Anyway, this is an optimal strategy i used on tests. And i can reload on tests.


Votes:
1) I'd say MC now.
2) what choices are we voting between?
a) you like my map
b) you have a better map and propose it
3) I don't see a need to vote on Calendar yet. Maybe if we have a junk GP. But even a spy gives us 6 under republic as well as enough EPs to keep a track on the AIs. Remember, now we know more AIs, we'll have many more targets for EPs.

Good point about GSpies, but surely they're better used fro GAges.
A vote on calendar, also spcifying the GSpy/no-GSpy option will give me matter for tests.
So i can better confute your opinions

 

[Mesix]

1. MC now.
2. The city placement that I proposed earlier will maximize FP for the NP city.
3. MC, Paper, Education in that order.

Spoiler :

Here is a screen shot of the land to the south. I propose placement of two cities on the blue dots drawn on the map. Settling our National Park (let's call it Yellowstone) city on top of the Wine resource will get us 11-12 forests, more than any other location. Moving Sparta 1 SW of where Blubz recommended will limited the canibalization of tiles between the two cities and still get us the Iron, Cows, and Wheet resources for Sparta.

What do other people think?

 

[BLubmuz]

Mesix, i already well motivated why i don't like that placement.

1) Sparta (or anyway city #3) not only can't work uranium, but also can't work the WM on the hill and can't grow wothout wine 'til Bio. This way is crappy, crappy, crappy.
2) we lose a good city N of Cows.

What do we gain?
2 more free sci in turn 140

And maybe not, if the forest will pop aided by some FP.

Please stop with that Biology/NP thing. It's 1 damn city.
We'll have 24-28 by the end. Most of them far better than Yellowstone.

Do you realize that to optimize the NP output (in 90 turns) you're nerfing 1 good city (Sparta was one of the powerhouses in my tests) and negate another good one?

FYI i sustained the war to conquer all the continent with only 3 cities producing units:
LP, Sparta, Athens. Sparta was just a bit less productive than LP. Only near the end i squeezed a couple units from a city on South.

 

[Mesix]

This is a vote right?

That is my vote.

I have read what your vote is.

I am waiting to see how the rest of the team votes before I proceed.

I'm in favor of 6-10 cities at the end of the game...24-28 is overkill. It is better to have 6 good cities than 20 so/so cities. We can rage with our paratroopers, take over most of Hammy, and keep two or three good cities, and give him the crap cities back through diplomacy once he is our vassal.

 

[Simon_c]

I'll cast my uncast city vote (2) on Mesix city plan. I think that fewer larger focused cities with vasalized AIs would secure our continent quickest.

But I'd only weight my vote at about 50%, "cos I nah nout"

 

[BLubmuz]

We'll talk about wars and so on later, but one thing must be clear:

NO VASSALS​

The good cities are big, and in all my tests i could keep them right under the happy cap, trading for all the possible resources with the other continents, and building Broadway, R&R and the Eiffel.

Simply, we can't afford to have -4 for "we yearn to join ..."

In addition we can't afford to have city #3 so crappy.

After some early mistake on city placement i've run all my recent tests with that placement and i can assure it's the best possible.
I managed to launch on turn 191 with that!!!

 

[unclethrill]

My Vote:

MC now.

I like Mesix's city placement but there really isn't a huge problem with BLub's either. If we choose BLub's just to maximize the number of cities then it's a bad choice IMO. If this was a large or huge map, then I could see having 28 cities but it's standard. If we're not careful, 28 cities might just give us a dom victory. No city Razing is on so if we start rolling AI, we could just be stuck with a bunch of crappy cities that nobody wants and that cost us more than they're worth (possible the game).

I'm on the fence for Calendar. Hooking up resources is good but getting universities up and running is more important. So if I have to vote one way or the other, I say MC, Paper, Edu. LB half of Edu if we can to get Univ. up faster. We should already have forges in all the cities so build times for Univ should be minimal.