SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

[Gnejs]

Problem is we need an airport somewhere.

Do we really? I am starting to like the Astronomy route more and more. I don't see any high production cities, so it is going to take some turns to build the paras we need. Splitting the forces by going both west and east at the same time seems like a bad idea then. Astronomy unlocks both observatories and laboratories in one go, good for research. Then we also get the foreign trade routes and the resource trades. Finally, a galleon that starts in Atlantis clams can unload at Nobamba W-NW on the next turn. After this we can para-hop through Shakas cities pretty quickly.

Edit: Of course we need an airport once we have the first city on the other continent...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Music - no. If we had the happy cap to spare to switch back to PS, why did we switch to HR in the first place?

Let's think about this. We may not have the happies till the end of the GA or even the next one, but the free civic change is not necessarily the most important reason for the first GA. If C1 only gives us ~34hpt w/HE, then that's 3t per paratrooper, way too slow. We don't need Rifling till have several cities that can build them simultanteously. And the GA is almost pointless if those cities are not working a number of hammer tiles each. On the other hand, the GA hammers plus the Police State 25% can make a big difference if we're producing paratroopers in several cities. So maybe we're getting to RIfling a bit too fast?

Maybe we should even squeeze in MC and build some forges?

 

[klarius]

Airport is +1 trade route. I want this in MW for sure.
Especially if we should get astronomy.
So no MoM in MW.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Airport is +1 trade route. I want this in MW for sure.
Especially if we should get astronomy.
So no MoM in MW.

Yeah, I realize that it provides both in MW and we need that. Still, I bet odeon-airport-MoM in MW is faster than MoM anywhere else, unless we chop it in FL, for example, which I think would be a short-sighted shame. Anyway, I think we will have the production, using a GA+Police State to produce paras fast:

    prod   pop  improvements needed    No. of paras in 10t
    -----  ---  ---------------------  -------------------
MW  35hpt  ~17  3 more cottages        3
FF  13hpt    5  1 preserve             2 (w/poprush)
Mar 22hpt    5  2 windmills            2
C1  46hpt    6  1 winery, 1 pres, HE   4 
KT  15hpt    6  1 windmill, 1 cottage  2 (w/poprush)
FL  20hpt    4  2 wineries             2
FP  23hpt    5  3 windmills, 1-2 farms 2
                              
                  Total paras in 10t: 17

This is achievable in time for Rifling. SO is athe airport in MW. The only question is how to get the MoM before we start the GA. My guess is that MW can do it while we research: Aesth-Lit-Music-GP-Rifling.

EDIT: Maybe something like: odeon-airport(poprushed)-MoM(chopped)?

 

[klarius]

Played another 2 turns. Report and save here.
Pause for the night (or longer if the discussion needs longer ).

 

[LowtherCastle]

Unless the barbs go for Music, it looks like we might be able to hold off till Rifling is done. I have various comments, but I think I'll limit to two:

1. KT needs a worker building the fort pretty quick if we're planning to send our paras over asap.
2. I am MEGA-against MoM in FL. 2pop MW airport after 4-6t, put overflow + 2chops into MoM, and it's done in ~12t from now. Perfect timing for a GAge. No need to scorch-Earth useful forest preserves in FL.

 

[Erkon]

Hmm, I tend to agree with LC somewhat regarding MoM.

What about MoM first in MW, then Airport?

I support Music before GP/rifling. We can grow our cities now, and then run a GA with MoM once we have Rifling.

I think we shall grow our cities, get the buildings we need, improve the tiles we need, and then get Rifling. If we can synchronize all this, we can build paratroopers for 10-15 turns, while we tech to Astronomy. Then we build observatories/laboratories.

 

[jesusin]

FL should be doing watery things.

Why not MoM before airport in MW?
We get increased probability of completing it, we lose some traderoute coins, we get a few GPP. Am I missing anything?


EDIT: xpost

 

[Gnejs]

Airport is +1 trade route. I want this in MW for sure.
Especially if we should get astronomy.
So no MoM in MW.

+1 trade route is currently an unimpressive +2 cpt. I agree that the airport is good to have later, but I don't see the point in building it now. And poprushing it seems very counter-productive as we want to grow MW to size 20 asap, right?

 

[ZPV]

For all you sane/crazy* people who want Music + Golden Age:
*delete as appropriate

How many paratroopers are you looking to build during the GA? We certainly don't need 17.
We need 5 or 6 to take out Hammurabi, and another 5 or so to help invade Zululand.

No one has feudalism, and Shaka doesn't even have monarchy.

How many turns do you expect to save with Music+GA? If music is before rifling, I'll estimate that savings are minimal, because of the delayed start to paratrooper production.
If music is after rifling, I'll give a rough estimate of 1 turn, because the critical path is getting those first 5-6 paras out to Hammurabi, and the KonTiki whipped paratrooper to Madrid (assuming the no-Astro route).

If we save the GA for the research-intensive phase, each tile which is contributing to research (which is most of them) will have its yield increased by at least on average (some of them much more, where there are coins and hammers on the tile), saving about 2 turns, using this lower bound.

 

[Erkon]

FL should be doing watery things.
... Am I missing anything?

Yes, FL is not coastal

Where do we get the garrison units in MW? Do we need to build any more archers before HE comes online?

Regarding settlement: I suggest SW-Clam-Fish since that site can be stolen by Hammurabi, and MW-clam cannot. MW-clam will be useful to drain Atlantis of units.

I guess a galley on coast can defend against an unpromoted barb galley, so FP could build one rather soon.

 

[LowtherCastle]

What about MoM first in MW, then Airport?

Why not MoM before airport in MW?
We get increased probability of completing it, we lose some traderoute coins, we get a few GPP. Am I missing anything?

Well, if we want to poprush the airport, then the overflow could speed up the MoM by 1-2 turns.

+1 trade route is currently an unimpressive +2 cpt....And poprushing it seems very counter-productive as we want to grow MW to size 20 asap, right?

2gpt in MW = 9bpt and at pop10+X(?), it will grow to 3gpt. Not exactly trivial, imo.

MW can grow about 3pop every 4t, so pop growth isn't too great a difficulty. On the other hand, getting Shaka's and other captured cities out of resistance will take multiple turns, so I still view us as in pre-T100/REX/development mode somewhat. But it really depends on what we want to do with our first paras. If we're flying them to KT, then I think we want airport sooner than pop20 in MW. If we're not going to send attackers to Shaka for the first 7-10 turns, then maybe you're right about Rifling-Astro and a galleon rather than even bothering with the KT fort.

NOTE: We'll also need a FP grass fort pretty soon if we want to send triremes, galleys or galleons from FP to the east.

crazy*
*delete as appropriate

(WTH? damn delete key doesn't seem to work...)

 

[klarius]

Where do we get the garrison units in MW? Do we need to build any more archers before HE comes online?

Well HE will be ready in 3 turns ...
Then we can do things like archer-archer-mace.

Regarding settlement: I suggest SW-Clam-Fish since that site can be stolen by Hammurabi, and MW-clam cannot. MW-clam will be useful to drain Atlantis of units.

SW clam is easier for now. MW clam is pretty dicey now, for juggling the units. OTOH, if we want to settle MW clam inland for optimal use of land tiles we need to settle it soon, if we want to get access to Atlantis. The landings near FL are a pain.

 

[ZPV]

(WTH? damn delete key doesn't seem to work...)

You could always PM a mod.

 

[Erkon]

For all you sane/crazy* people who want Music + Golden Age:
*delete as appropriate

How many paratroopers are you looking to build during the GA? We certainly don't need 17.
We need 5 or 6 to take out Hammurabi, and another 5 or so to help invade Zululand.

No one has feudalism, and Shaka doesn't even have monarchy.

How many turns do you expect to save with Music+GA? If music is before rifling, I'll estimate that savings are minimal, because of the delayed start to paratrooper production.
If music is after rifling, I'll give a rough estimate of 1 turn, because the critical path is getting those first 5-6 paras out to Hammurabi, and the KonTiki whipped paratrooper to Madrid (assuming the no-Astro route).

If we save the GA for the research-intensive phase, each tile which is contributing to research (which is most of them) will have its yield increased by at least on average (some of them much more, where there are coins and hammers on the tile), saving about 2 turns, using this lower bound.

The number of paras has an effect on the speed of the conquest. 10 is enough, and 15 will do the job quicker, especially if we're targeting Stalin or HC as well. I don't care right now how many we need though, since we will probably adjust once we get closer to Rifling date.

The question is really about timing. The extra hammers and beakers from an early GA will speed up astronomy and observatories/laboratories. I believe that an early GA is at least as powerful as a late one due to the exponential nature of Civ. The detour to Music may be suitable in order for our cities to have more time to prepare for the Paratrooper phase, so the delay may not be that significant. Music costs 600 beakers (~500 raw beakers). 9 turns of GA then has to produce >50 beakers / turn extra, which I think is reasonable. The main bonus is then the extra hammers. So, an early GA will delay the first paratrooper a few turns, but the last paratrooper is not delayed.

These are just a couple of thoughts, so I'm easily convinced to skip the GA

 

[LowtherCastle]

We'll get a GP in MW pretty soon, possibly a GProph. The problem with using him is that they're harder to produce than GAs, but that wouldn't be a problem till our 4th GAge.

 

[ZPV]

The number of paras has an effect on the speed of the conquest. 10 is enough, and 15 will do the job quicker, especially if we're targeting Stalin or HC as well. I don't care right now how many we need though, since we will probably adjust once we get closer to Rifling date.

The question is really about timing. The extra hammers and beakers from an early GA will speed up astronomy and observatories/laboratories. I believe that an early GA is at least as powerful as a late one due to the exponential nature of Civ. The detour to Music may be suitable in order for our cities to have more time to prepare for the Paratrooper phase, so the delay may not be that significant. Music costs 600 beakers (~500 raw beakers). 9 turns of GA then has to produce >50 beakers / turn extra, which I think is reasonable. The main bonus is then the extra hammers. So, an early GA will delay the first paratrooper a few turns, but the last paratrooper is not delayed.

These are just a couple of thoughts, so I'm easily convinced to skip the GA

All right. I guess I didn't take the developmental aid of a GA into account. I guess I can put up with one but Music comes after Rifling.

 

[Erkon]

klarius - please find my comments to the PPP:

MW - build MoM, then airport. This sequence will cost us perhaps 80-100 beakers, but the risk that HC builds MoM before us is reduced. Both forests can be chopped into MW.
Marble - miss, miss
FF - settler (for SW-clam-fish), Odeon, settler (for MW-Clam)
C1 - HE, archer
FL - barracks

Poprush KT this turn?

Research GP, Rifling. If HC get's Drama or Literature, consider switch to Music.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Anyone remember if HC has marble?

 

[Gnejs]

Anyone remember if HC has marble?

Stalin has marble and stone (not quarried), HC does not.