SGOTM 09 - Smurkz

[r_rolo1]

Gave a quick look at the save... looks OK enough

What to tech after Electricity? Our main lacks in terms of techs are the percursors of Plastics ( both the combustion and the Industrialism parts ), and I don't think that, even with massive gifting to the AI, they will be much of help in those regards to be useful...

BTW, anyone noticed where the Christian holy city is?

P.S New pacth is up... lovely... we'll have to go to dual installs again

 

[Renata]

BTW, anyone noticed where the Christian holy city is?

Yeah, Backwards Logic had a nice when he saw that.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Excellent playing! I'd say settle the Great Sci. He'll give us at 1700 beakers by turn 190, plus an extra hammer. I don't have a good feel for when to run Golden Ages, but we want to probably keep 2 for the end production run, and it would probably be a good idea try to time any other GA to take advantage of switching civics. I'm particularly thinking about Hammy's AP. We should NOT give the AIs Astro for awhile because then Hammy could spread the AP religion everywhere. If/when he spreads it to us we might want to revolt to OrgRel so we could quickly build the AP missionaries and spread it to all our cities for a blocking vote. On the other hand, we'll be able to kill that threat by learning Mass Media, but that tech is not required for Spaceship. Then again, you all know that I'm really paranoid about the AP. In any case, I say settle this Great Sci.

[Cross post with Rolo]
I haven't opened the save, but are the natives really becoming restless? Maybe we should go for Rifling instead of Electricity. The benefits of Elec are pretty modest for us (apart from being a prereq for other stuff) and Rifling would certainly boost our power. And frankly, I'd go for Guilds --> Banking --> Economics before Elec. Keep an eye on Wang's teching toward Music, though--it would be sweet to get that free Great Artist if we can trade for prereqs and only research Music.

Thank you for the watermill.

 

[r_rolo1]

The natives don't look restless... Renata, are they?

 

[Renata]

What do you mean by natives: Joao and Hammy? No, they're not restless per se: neither has too much on their hands, and both are currently pleased with us. But Joao has a sizable stack of crossbows and maces just over the border in Faro that could cause us a ton of pain if things were to suddenly change, and Hammy's power is roughly +50% of ours. (Can't see Joao's.) It's just something that needs to be taken into consideration.

Something else BL pointed out and I wanted to add is that we need to watch our borders in several places. Faro could potentially take several tiles from Panama down the road, not just the clams. And Bonanza is at some risk of losing the cows and might want to continue to build cultural stuff. HG should help, though.

 

[Xcalibrator]

I'm pleased that our neighbors are pleased, but Hammy was cautious not long ago, right? He might have gotten a foolish idea during that time. And a big stack in Faro makes me nervous regardless. Let's tech Rifling just in case--even 1 rifle would make a big difference in a fight. And truly, unless there's some big benefit from Electricity that I'm missing, I'd then tech Guilds (1000 beakers), Banking (700), and Economics (1400). All these techs are needed for Spaceship, they're cheaper than Elec (4500), and they'll give Zaki something to build.

 

[Renata]

Yes, Hammy went to pleased when I traded for MC.

 

[r_rolo1]

The stack in Faro is a revolt supressor, not a a offensive endeavour. And besides the warring parties, only shaka is in hands full ( us or Wang... most likely wang ). Given that Shaka has not even Optics, I would not be too much afraid of a attack by him for a while

About the techs... well, I'm surprised to not see niklas

someone by sugesting to tech those meansly techs by ourselves, with so much AI to trade with ( All but Stalin have Feudalism , for a example... I bet they will tech Guilds soon too )..... How about going the combustion route while we wait for the AI to get those goodies for us? Or are we counting with the free GM from economics ?

 

[Niklas]

Yes! Thank you rolo!

I'm fine with skipping Electricity for now, in favor of either Combustion or Rifling. Guilds should be on the scene any year now though, after which we can rush for Banking->Economics.

I really really doubt that Hammy will be able to spread his AP religion all around. But yes, if we get a missionary then we should definitely spread it around as fast as we can.

Oh, and nice playing Renata, solid choices all around.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Well, since we actually managed to finally get MC by trade, I suppose we can hold off on Guilds and cross our fingers that the AI won't take another 500 years to get it. And adding a forge to Zaki's queue will buy a couple more turns until we run out of things to build. So sure, I'd be happy to go Rifling (just in case) and then the Combustion route.

Regarding Faro's pretensions to cultural dominance, should we think about using our stored Great Artist, either by settling or dropping a culture bomb in Panama? I don't know what the relevant numbers are on quick speed so don't know which would be better. And/or we could run artists as our specialists in Panama. We're probably not going to be able to build enough culture buildings there to tip the balance.

 

[r_rolo1]

We can always build Sistine and let the Panama specs to cut out Faro pretensions to those tiles

 

[Renata]

OK, settle the GS and onward to Rifling it is, then. I'll play a few more turns this morning before officially handing it off.

 

[Renata]

Played 3 more turns, to rifling. The Save

Things look fine in general. With so many cities growing so fast and the rep happiness bonus shuffling all over the place, keeping track of happy cities is a bit of an issue right now. Basic irrigation is done, but we still need lots more done. We're up to about a dozen workers, though. Good luck, whoever's next! Oh, and we got hanging gardens, that's AWESOME!

1320 AD (continued): Research towards rifling, 1656 in bank at -109. (3 turns). Settle GS.

End Turn!

1340 AD: Hanging Gardens! Wheee! That is so nice.

Wang completes Swedagon Paya. Cows tile by Bonanza is holding steady at 51% ours, so I'll try to sneak in a forge next there. Panama just popped borders and is now pushing back against Faro again. Coast tile to SE of city is 3% Portuguese, tile east of that 15% (last turn was 17%); clams 67% (forgot to look last turn). Floodplain by BLville is 26% Babylonian; plains hill to the SW by Shushan is 76%.

Rice by Ouzo is now irrigated (up from the lake). I'm not sure exactly what Xcal had in mind in terms of irrigation redundancy, so I'll leave that to the next player. Zaki has all its preserves done. Next GPerson (almost 90% GS) in 3 turns.

Greenland has one unhappy right now, but will complete Odeon (and grow again) in 2. Everywhere else is OK.

Atlantis just finished a second mace, and will presumably send out another suicide mission this turn.

I pick up Aesthetics from Hammy for Optics.

End turn!

1360 AD: Yep, here comes the uber-galley.

Tiles by BLville have dropped to 74% and 24% Babylonian, so we're gaining there. Cows are the same. By Panama it's 3, 13 and 64% Portuguese.

Wang has astronomy, btw; I'm not sure when/if we knew that. Hammy does not; both lack Edu and Natio. Both have lit/drama/theo to trade. Since I'm only playing one more turn, I'll let the next player decide what to do with trades. Hammy has 4 turns left on Nationalism, and I believe that we will be able to see Wang's research next turn as well.

Started farming over the winery W of Athens, contrary to what I said last turn. Wheat by Bonanza should be irrigated next turn.

City growth somewhere else lost Panama its rep happy bonus, so it has one unhappy right now. Worker to finish next turn. However, Greenland has run out its whip issues and is now OK.

End turn! Atlantis drops off on cows.

1380 AD: Rifling in! Steam next. Zaki obs-lab (forge first would lose 1-2 turns). Ouzo market-forge. Panama worker-odeon. Greenland odeon-finish harbor.

Most units remain unmoved, but I did complete the irrgation of Bonanza's wheat.

We can now see Hammy and Wang's research: it's 3 turns on Nationalism and Guilds, respectively. (Might want to split espionage between them now so we can continue to keep an eye on both.) Can still trade anything we have to either of them for the two techs we want.

GP next turn in Zaki.

Worker by Greenland is done with what it's doing and can hook up furs next.

Edit: I actually think that further growth in Panama (size 9) will benefit it happy-wise: it will pass Sparta (now size 10 and stagnant), which doesn't need the help.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Yay, Hanging Gardens! Excellent playing! Too bad we can't tell if Wang has Music yet; I'd say we should trade for Lit and/or Drama with Hammy and if nobody has Music yet then let's grab it and the free Great Artist for ourselves. That would leave only 1 more Artist needed for our 3 remaining Golden Ages, so we wouldn't have to spend as many turns running relatively useless artist specialists in Panama. With Phishing running only merchants (and guaranteed to pop 1 Merchant) and the free one from Economics, we're covered there.

3 turns for Rifling? I hoped that our teching would be even faster, but Zaki's obs and lab are on the way. Nice to know that the AI are working on Guilds. Can hardly wait to look at the save.

Which brings up... who's going to play next? Chris is still lying low, BL is busy in his yard (still?), and unkle is busy until the 18th. Commando Bob is still observing (?) and Niklas said he was very busy. Any let up in sight? If not, Methos hasn't been sighted in a long time, leaving me. I should have some time this weekend, but if anyone higher in the list can play, that would be great.

Renata: Just played (54-67)(120-129?)
ChrisShaffer: (36-45)
Backwards Logic: (68-81)
unkle: (1-7) (81-92)
CommandoBob: Official Observer Status for now
Niklas: (7-14) (93-101)
Methos: Skipped (14-23) (35-36)
Xcalibrator: (23-35) (102-111)
r_rolo1: (45-54) (111-119)

 

[r_rolo1]

Wang doesn't have music ( care to check the "Can research" column, pls? ).

Good to know that wang is going Guilds though..... HC already has it, so he should be willing to trade it. With the overflow of Steam we can get banking + Economics in 2 turns if we want to if we can convince wang to trade

Now that our friends the barbs already are bringing maces, maybe a siege unit or two in the landing area would be nice. That or a pair of frigates

P.S 2 things:

We need a whaling boat in greenland. + 1 is nothing to shun out

Why does our cap still lacks a forge?

 

[Niklas]

I can take the next turnset. I can definitely play over the weekend, but I'll try to have a look at it already today.

 

[Xcalibrator]

I can take the next turnset. I can definitely play over the weekend, but I'll try to have a look at it already today.

Yay!

@Rolo: Whales obsolete with Combustion--still worth it?

Zaki has been building Oxford, now observatory and then lab--no time for forge yet.

Ah yes, "Can research." Thanks for looking. So, shall we trade for Lit and/or Drama ASAP and immediately research Music for the Great Artist? The "wasted" beakers will likely be paid for by being able to run merchants/scientists instead of artists in Panama (though we would still need 1 more Artist).

 

[r_rolo1]

We still have some turns until combustion, even if we beeline it ( not sure of that.... If we are able to trade for Guilds in 3 turns with wang, maybe it is better to think on going the Assembly Line way )

 

[Xcalibrator]

This is probably obvious, but it may not hurt to remind ourselves now that we're running a lot of specialists that we want:
* Only sci's in Zaki, plus as many engineers as possible (i.e., 1 after the forge is built), and probably plus as many priests as possible (to settle somewhere for the gold and hammers)
* Only merchants in Phishing
* Until we get the first Artist or Merchant from Panama, run either:
** only artists if we need the culture to push back Faro
** only merchants otherwise.

After Panama pops its first GP we'll have to crunch some numbers to see if merchants or scientists are best. As long as we get that Artist from Music and a Merchant from Economics we can then run 3 more Golden Ages.

 

[Xcalibrator]

I finally looked at the save. First, I think Hammy and Wang have Music. They show Lit and Drama under "Will trade" but Music does not appear under "Can research" and they both have Math, so that says to me they already have Music. Correct?

Zaki is producing 174 GPP/turn with 12 free/preserve specs and 4 others. Phishing is running 3 specs but can run 3.5 on average and should do so. I will be delighted to revise my GP popping estimates with these higher rates.

How do we feel about forest preserves vs lumbermills? I think we ought to lean more on the latter (other than in Zaki, of course).

With Astro now in, we can trade more of our resources for gold; several AI have spare change burning holes in their pockets.

We still have a Taoist missionary sitting in Zaki that may be costing us unit maintenance. I'd use him in BLville or Panama so we could eventually build a temple for culture and maybe run a priest.

There are 2 barb maces sitting on our Athens cows. There's probably no need to kill them but if they don't kill themselves we'll need a Rifle.

Zaki is making 721 of our 952 total beakers. Would more cities (mm, such as Hammy's) be worth the effort to take for extra beakers and hammers? He has several nice cities, and we may need to take Sushan (or whatever it's called) so BLville can work all its tiles.

I'd take off the 2 coastal tiles in Panama and run specs until there are more farms to work. Do we really want one of those workers building a workshop now, or are farms more urgent?

Once BLville gets another pop or two, and preferably after mining the river hill and putting Lmills on the forests, it should get to work on the Moai. Right now it would take 42 turns but it'll take fewer than 15 with a little more pop and adjustments.

Greenland has a scientist who should be working the new preserve. Ouzo has a spy.
(Both are presumably new pops.) Greenland needs a lighthouse.

There's a nice city site between the barb cities of Harrapan and Cimmerian on a river with wheat, iron, several forests and hills. Do we think we have enough good production cities?