SGOTM 09 - Team CFR
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
We definitely should stop there. Sailing is necessary to protect our seafood in Sparta and southern cities, and will provide extra commerce from trade with Portugal, and maybe some recources for corn; populating Greenland might also be an option worth considering. So if we do not get it from trade by then, self-research is the way.
The date of contact between Joao and Hammurabi is definitely a decisive factor across the teams, allowing to trade for Mysticism, Bronze, later - Sailing and Iron.
Maybe we should give Hammurabi fishing so that he could research Sailing and later trade it from him - I doubt he'll manage to do it on time, though.
Also, I'd like to get Joao to Friendly, so that ideally we can vassalize him, get unique resources (oil, stone, etc) and guide his research.
The date of contact between Joao and Hammurabi is definitely a decisive factor across the teams, allowing to trade for Mysticism, Bronze, later - Sailing and Iron.
Maybe we should give Hammurabi fishing so that he could research Sailing and later trade it from him - I doubt he'll manage to do it on time, though.
Also, I'd like to get Joao to Friendly, so that ideally we can vassalize him, get unique resources (oil, stone, etc) and guide his research.
Turn 42-45:
Teched Meditation, Priesthood, Masonry
Build Academy and Library in Athens.
Removed 2 sciensist to earn 2 turns of worker in Sparta.
Building FPs.
Finally Joao and Hammi met and now we can tech Bronse working and Archery. Joao suggests unrefuseable offer: Priesthood+Meditation <-> Bronse working
Session finished.
Teched Meditation, Priesthood, Masonry
Build Academy and Library in Athens.
Removed 2 sciensist to earn 2 turns of worker in Sparta.
Building FPs.
Finally Joao and Hammi met and now we can tech Bronse working and Archery. Joao suggests unrefuseable offer: Priesthood+Meditation <-> Bronse working
Session finished.
Spoiler :
Great news that Joao and Hammi finally have contact. I think you should go ahead and do the trade. Joao shouldn't be able to build the Oracle in just 4 turns, and the information about copepr is important.
The key question now is whether we research sailing now or wait untill we can get it from the AI. I would rather play it safe and research it ourselves, because I think otherwise out fishing net at Sparta will soon get pillaged.
We can make a decision on production in Corinth & Sparta after we make the trade for BW, because if we have copper we may need to revise our plans anyway to build phalanxes for escorting our settler south.
The 4th city can be built SW,W of uranium, which is safer then the coast and blocks Hammi's expansion.
The key question now is whether we research sailing now or wait untill we can get it from the AI. I would rather play it safe and research it ourselves, because I think otherwise out fishing net at Sparta will soon get pillaged.
We can make a decision on production in Corinth & Sparta after we make the trade for BW, because if we have copper we may need to revise our plans anyway to build phalanxes for escorting our settler south.
The 4th city can be built SW,W of uranium, which is safer then the coast and blocks Hammi's expansion.
Dynamic
But not hurry
I'm not the SDK master, but it looks like barb galley movement could be described here in CvUnitAI.cpp AI_barbAttackSeaMove().
Code:
void CvUnitAI::AI_barbAttackSeaMove()
{
PROFILE_FUNC();
if (GC.getGameINLINE().getSorenRandNum(2, "AI Barb") == 0)
{
if (AI_pillageRange(1))
{
return;
}
}
if (AI_anyAttack(2, 25))
{
return;
}
if (AI_pillageRange(4))
{
return;
}
if (AI_heal())
{
return;
}
if (AI_patrol())
{
return;
}
if (AI_retreatToCity())
{
return;
}
if (AI_safety())
{
return;
}
getGroup()->pushMission(MISSION_SKIP);
return;
}45-50turns:
resolved trades:
Meditation+Priesthood <-> Bronse Working(Joao)
Meditation<-> Archery(Hammi)
Cooper is under Sparta. At least it is allready hooked.
1 turn teched at 0% Maths
others teched 100%
Researched Maths.
Completed Oracle ---> Genetics
Put 2 sciensist back in Sparta to prevent it from growing before FP is completed.
Started Phalanx in both Sparta and Corinth.
Session Finished.
Hammurappi got Iron Working and Sailing but too greedy and wont trade it.
resolved trades:
Meditation+Priesthood <-> Bronse Working(Joao)
Meditation<-> Archery(Hammi)
Cooper is under Sparta. At least it is allready hooked.
1 turn teched at 0% Maths
others teched 100%
Researched Maths.
Completed Oracle ---> Genetics
Put 2 sciensist back in Sparta to prevent it from growing before FP is completed.
Started Phalanx in both Sparta and Corinth.
Session Finished.
Hammurappi got Iron Working and Sailing but too greedy and wont trade it.
[Some explanation on why we skipped sailing:
We had a very long debate on whether we need to research sailing and build a galley in Sparta. We dug into the SDK code and ran some tests triing to predict the barbarian galley behaviour.
Naval barbarian units seem to behave differently from their land units. For land units there is indeed a check for number of cities per living civilization inside the code (AI_barbAttackMove function), but there is no such check for naval units (AI_barbAttackSeaMove function). It looks like barbarian units with AI_ATTACK_SEA AI type (such as randomly spawned barb galleys) will first target units withing two tiles range and improvements within four tiles range of their current position, and if they don't find any such targets their movement is described by the AI_patrol function, which will move the units to a random tile not owned by anyone, and not adjacent to a tile owned by anyone if it is possible. So if it doesn't see any targets for pillaging or attacking, the galley will bounce off the cultural boundaries, which already happened in this game a couple of times.
Not everything is still clear to us, because our fish net is inside the 4 tiles radius of the tile 5E of Athens where the barb galley appeared, so why did it not target the fish net? We believe that is because the barbs don't know about the fish net, and since there is no way how they can learn about it, they won't enter our borders. We ran several tests adding barb units in WB, and they seemed to confirm this.
Even though this research didn't absolutely convince everyone that we are safe, the team members that were in favour of building a galley for protection capitulated and we moved on skipping sailing. At least we know whom to blame when we loose our fishing net.]
We had a very long debate on whether we need to research sailing and build a galley in Sparta. We dug into the SDK code and ran some tests triing to predict the barbarian galley behaviour.
Naval barbarian units seem to behave differently from their land units. For land units there is indeed a check for number of cities per living civilization inside the code (AI_barbAttackMove function), but there is no such check for naval units (AI_barbAttackSeaMove function). It looks like barbarian units with AI_ATTACK_SEA AI type (such as randomly spawned barb galleys) will first target units withing two tiles range and improvements within four tiles range of their current position, and if they don't find any such targets their movement is described by the AI_patrol function, which will move the units to a random tile not owned by anyone, and not adjacent to a tile owned by anyone if it is possible. So if it doesn't see any targets for pillaging or attacking, the galley will bounce off the cultural boundaries, which already happened in this game a couple of times.
Not everything is still clear to us, because our fish net is inside the 4 tiles radius of the tile 5E of Athens where the barb galley appeared, so why did it not target the fish net? We believe that is because the barbs don't know about the fish net, and since there is no way how they can learn about it, they won't enter our borders. We ran several tests adding barb units in WB, and they seemed to confirm this.
Even though this research didn't absolutely convince everyone that we are safe, the team members that were in favour of building a galley for protection capitulated and we moved on skipping sailing. At least we know whom to blame when we loose our fishing net.]
I think that you have to translate that into english according to the forum rules.
I don't think we need granaries in Sparta and Corinth right now. I is better to build workers and settlers there untill we have all 6 cities required for Oxford settled. Ideally all our cities except the capital should build granary, library, university at the same time, and there is little benefit if Sparta or Corinth grows big and builds stuff while other cities lag behind. Athens on the other hand should not be building settlers/workers, unless it will otherwise grow into unhappiness.
Also don't forget that we are a police state, so maybe it is sometimes better to give Sparta the windmill to get it up to 4 raw hammers while it is building the phalanx.
I will - or more likely, replace with updated version
Good point.
As for granaries and such, I just wasn't sure what we need at all in Sparta. If we get Sailing soon, galley/lighthouse might become a priority.
So far I'm thinking of redistributing phalanx production to Athens and making/starting extra settler in Corinth. However, I do not agree with moving workers off mainland too soon - according to my plan there are in total maybe couple of turns any imrovement stands idle, with Athens sharing them with Corinth and Sparta, and that's with Sparta running 2 scientists. Moreover, my synchronization of workers' actions and city growth allowed to prevent both Athens and Sparta from revolting the turn they became unhappy. And in the beginning there isn't much to do for workers near Thebes.
In the test provided by OT4E barbs have already planted couple of cities, so we should speed up settlement, unless we want to waste hammers on capturing often inferiorly placed barb cities.
My turns, accroding to revised plan
All this session I was moving our scout back northwards to uncover the coast towards Joao that cannot be reached by a balloon.
50 - worker SS from Athens, switch one scientist in Sparta to forest to get 25% Police State bonus. Start Currency to speed up CoL
IBT - we are the reachest civ in the world with our 25 gp. My hopes on getting cash from trades after Currency are miserable. Babylon has built a Great Wall - means all barbs will visit us from now on.
51 - Corinth starts settler after phalanx, which moves to the cite of future 4th city. Athens are pop 11, get windmill from Sparta, which moves 1 person to scientists again.
IBT - both our neighbours are ready to trade Poly and IW.
52 - we get IW from Joao for Maths to stimulate him researching Calendar and Construction to trade from him, leaving Hammurabi for later to (hopefully) get both Poly and Sailing from him, as he goes WFYABTA faster than Joao. Found Iron SSSW from Corinth, in the first radius of our 4th-to-be city. Good. Another Iron is near flood plains, where we plan our future city.
Return windmill to Sparta to synchronise growth and phalanx, Athens work 1 turn on lake.
53 - Athens 12, Sparta 5 - both unhappy, but both pacified by 2 completed forest preserves.
Balloon finished in Athens - Settler. Phalanx finished in Sparta - worker (TBD).
Balloon goes 1E from rice and sees tasty things on the coast and Atlantis. Wow. Stop to have an Entmoot
All this session I was moving our scout back northwards to uncover the coast towards Joao that cannot be reached by a balloon.
50 - worker SS from Athens, switch one scientist in Sparta to forest to get 25% Police State bonus. Start Currency to speed up CoL
IBT - we are the reachest civ in the world with our 25 gp. My hopes on getting cash from trades after Currency are miserable. Babylon has built a Great Wall - means all barbs will visit us from now on.
51 - Corinth starts settler after phalanx, which moves to the cite of future 4th city. Athens are pop 11, get windmill from Sparta, which moves 1 person to scientists again.
IBT - both our neighbours are ready to trade Poly and IW.
52 - we get IW from Joao for Maths to stimulate him researching Calendar and Construction to trade from him, leaving Hammurabi for later to (hopefully) get both Poly and Sailing from him, as he goes WFYABTA faster than Joao. Found Iron SSSW from Corinth, in the first radius of our 4th-to-be city. Good. Another Iron is near flood plains, where we plan our future city.
Return windmill to Sparta to synchronise growth and phalanx, Athens work 1 turn on lake.
53 - Athens 12, Sparta 5 - both unhappy, but both pacified by 2 completed forest preserves.
Balloon finished in Athens - Settler. Phalanx finished in Sparta - worker (TBD).
Balloon goes 1E from rice and sees tasty things on the coast and Atlantis. Wow. Stop to have an Entmoot
Atlantis is a killer. One option of dealing with it is building lots of phalanx to garrison all coastal cities and coastal forests close to them. The other is capturing Great Wall from Babylon to at least limit the issue to seafood pillaging. The third is getting 4-5 triremes to starve off the city by blockade.
Dynamic
But not hurry
We know enough about our environment now. So we are trying to predict our development untill the Oxford. We need at least 6 cities and these cities should be able to build Universities ASAP. It's not so easy because of Barbs. WE need strong protection from free barbs (Babylon's GW will turn barbs to our side) and against assult from barbs super-city. As I tested we will have a strong oppression when we will found east-coast city. So it looks like we should delay it for building enough defence. Last cities will be small when we will need Universities so 5-th and 6-th city should have enough forest tiles for chopping and for future FP. For now I see such city placement:
4-th under Iron, use Wheat, Cow, Iron, Uranium, later Wine.
5-th on South above Wine between Cow and Rice.
6-th on East Coast above Cow. Later this city will use Clam, but after Frigats only...
First Settler will be build by Athens, next 2 in Corinth, but for now we should change production in Corinth to Phalanx and grow to size 3. In otheer case Settler 2 will be too early and we can't protect it.
Current calculations show me Civil Service ~400BC, Education ~1AD (GS) and Oxford in 400-500AD. We also have places for 2-3 cities on our continent and may be 1-2 in greenland, but a little bit later.
We should decide about 1 or 2 GS in Sparta. More safe is only 1 GS. We can build more Workers and be ready to build Galley if Barbs will come back.
Airship will allow us to have trade rout with Joao and may be we will contact with some other civs across ocean...
4-th under Iron, use Wheat, Cow, Iron, Uranium, later Wine.
5-th on South above Wine between Cow and Rice.
6-th on East Coast above Cow. Later this city will use Clam, but after Frigats only...
First Settler will be build by Athens, next 2 in Corinth, but for now we should change production in Corinth to Phalanx and grow to size 3. In otheer case Settler 2 will be too early and we can't protect it.
Current calculations show me Civil Service ~400BC, Education ~1AD (GS) and Oxford in 400-500AD. We also have places for 2-3 cities on our continent and may be 1-2 in greenland, but a little bit later.
We should decide about 1 or 2 GS in Sparta. More safe is only 1 GS. We can build more Workers and be ready to build Galley if Barbs will come back.
Airship will allow us to have trade rout with Joao and may be we will contact with some other civs across ocean...
Dynamic
But not hurry
It looks like we need at least 10 defence units for 6 cities, Phalanx and some Maces.
Another update on our discussion outside this thread...
Before the start of Lexad's session we had a debate on tech order. Previously we planned to go right for CS to take advantage of our uber-capital, but since we are going to found several extra cities in the near future we decided in favour of going for Currency before CoL->CS. We get a 20% discount on CoL, some money from trade routes and most importantly money from AI for selling techs to fuel our research. If we can get enough money from AI to sustain 100% research rate, we expect to get CS only one turn later then if we beeline CS. Of course it is possible to get Currency from AI, but our neighbours aren't finansial, so they won't priorituse it, and researching it ourselves should pay off.
We have just built an airship that will help us to explore the world. We already saw the barb city with it, next tasks are going to be 1.) exploring the coast to get foreign traderoutes, 2.) taking a look at Greenland to see if there are any good city sites there, 3.) taking a look at Hammurapi's lands, if his land is good we may consider a war with Babylon. The order of these tasks is still being discussed.
The main concern now is finding the right balance of REXing vs research to get Oxford built sa early as possible. It does seem now that the limiting factor will be expansion speed and we will get Education long before our cities will be ready to build universities, so we should prioritise building settlers & workers. This means removing scientists in Sparta and putting all citizens to work the forest for a fast worker. This also allows us to build a quick galley (maybe even with some pre-chopping) to deal with the randomly spawned barb galley if it returns and threatens our seafood.
A possible way of dealing with the barbs in Atlantis could be building a stack of triremes and using blockade to starve the citizens (Lexad's idea). But we don't have any coastal cities yet (except Sparta, but triremes built there won't be able to reach Atlantis because of ice), and once we settle on the coast, the cities will be busy building libraries & universities. So it looks like we'll have to live without improving seafood resources untill we get friagtes, and protecting the coast by land units. We also decided to change the order of founding our cities, with the city adjacent to Atlantis being settled later, so that we have time to build more units for protection.
Here is a map of our planned future cities locations:
Barb SOD in Atlantis:
Before the start of Lexad's session we had a debate on tech order. Previously we planned to go right for CS to take advantage of our uber-capital, but since we are going to found several extra cities in the near future we decided in favour of going for Currency before CoL->CS. We get a 20% discount on CoL, some money from trade routes and most importantly money from AI for selling techs to fuel our research. If we can get enough money from AI to sustain 100% research rate, we expect to get CS only one turn later then if we beeline CS. Of course it is possible to get Currency from AI, but our neighbours aren't finansial, so they won't priorituse it, and researching it ourselves should pay off.
We have just built an airship that will help us to explore the world. We already saw the barb city with it, next tasks are going to be 1.) exploring the coast to get foreign traderoutes, 2.) taking a look at Greenland to see if there are any good city sites there, 3.) taking a look at Hammurapi's lands, if his land is good we may consider a war with Babylon. The order of these tasks is still being discussed.
The main concern now is finding the right balance of REXing vs research to get Oxford built sa early as possible. It does seem now that the limiting factor will be expansion speed and we will get Education long before our cities will be ready to build universities, so we should prioritise building settlers & workers. This means removing scientists in Sparta and putting all citizens to work the forest for a fast worker. This also allows us to build a quick galley (maybe even with some pre-chopping) to deal with the randomly spawned barb galley if it returns and threatens our seafood.
A possible way of dealing with the barbs in Atlantis could be building a stack of triremes and using blockade to starve the citizens (Lexad's idea). But we don't have any coastal cities yet (except Sparta, but triremes built there won't be able to reach Atlantis because of ice), and once we settle on the coast, the cities will be busy building libraries & universities. So it looks like we'll have to live without improving seafood resources untill we get friagtes, and protecting the coast by land units. We also decided to change the order of founding our cities, with the city adjacent to Atlantis being settled later, so that we have time to build more units for protection.
Here is a map of our planned future cities locations:
Spoiler :
Barb SOD in Atlantis:
Spoiler :
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